Subject: Gulzar From: cvinchhi@telogy.com (Chetan Vinchhi) Date: 1995/04/21 Message-Id: <3n8jka$73b@clarknet.clark.net> Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc [More Headers] In article <3n8fbu$p2e@watnews2.watson.ibm.com>, pradeep@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) wrote: > >P.S. By the way when I hear lyrics like this, or that new "libaas" >song: neeli nadee ?? geelaa chaand ??, I am forced to say that >ALL other lyricists would need many more years of schooling at >the "Gulzar school of lyrics-writing" before they can even begin >to express such depths of human emotion !!! > I am not sure I agree with you there, Pradeep. Personally, I think Gulzar's lyrics are too weird for me. I cannot understand and/or appreciate most of them ! In this category fall words like "din khaali khaali bartan hai" and "koi kinara jo kinare se mile woh apna kinara hai". The use of words like "bistar" and "sofe" and "bartan" find a place only in Gulzar's lyrics. Such words somehow seem inappropriate for poetry. And often, I find myself struggling to find meaning in his words - not the meanings of words themselves but of the poetry as a whole. A classic example of this is "hum ne dekhi hai un aaNkhoN ki mehakti khushboo, haath se chhoo ke ise rishtoN ka ilzaam na do". Most of all, it is not fair to say that all other lyricists ought to learn from Gulzar. I am sure many RMIMers other than myself would strongly disagree. As a matter of fact, maybe Gulzar needs to learn a thing or two from others !! > >P.P.S: flame-proof vest on :-) :-) > Good precaution...you are going to need it :-) Cheers ! Chetan Subject: Re: Gulzar From: sm0e@Lehigh.EDU (SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED) Date: 1995/04/21 Message-Id: <3n8vrr$qp0@fidoii.cc.lehigh.edu> Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc [More Headers] In article <3n8jka$73b@clarknet.clark.net>, cvinchhi@telogy.com (Chetan Vinchhi) writes: >In article <3n8fbu$p2e@watnews2.watson.ibm.com>, > pradeep@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) wrote: >> >>P.S. By the way when I hear lyrics like this, or that new "libaas" >>song: neeli nadee ?? geelaa chaand ??, I am forced to say that >>ALL other lyricists would need many more years of schooling at >>the "Gulzar school of lyrics-writing" before they can even begin >>to express such depths of human emotion !!! Nice timing Pradeep... just a day before leaving for India so that u won't feel the heat on RMIM! :-) > I am not sure I agree with you there, Pradeep. Personally, I think > Gulzar's lyrics are too weird for me. I cannot understand > and/or appreciate most of them ! In this category I agree with Chetan here.. sometimes, Gulzar puts a simple thought in vague terms and foists it as deep poetry. For instance, while talking about KHwaab, Gulzar says "..palkon me lena inhe, aankhon me chubh jaaenge...". > fall words like "din khaali khaali bartan hai" and > "koi kinara jo kinare se mile woh apna kinara hai". The > use of words like "bistar" and "sofe" and "bartan" find a > place only in Gulzar's lyrics. Such words somehow seem > inappropriate for poetry. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ EXACTLY my thoughts!! Words such as "bartan" and "choola" completely put me off. Of course it's good to express thoughts in simple terms, but there should be a basic minimum quality level for words used in poetry. And then again, we have that classic "Prose or Poetry" (Abhay kuch yaad aaya ? :-) ) song "Mera kuch saamaan...." in which he says "Gila to main le aae, sookha lauTado...." or something to that effect. So, he's either putting simple thoughts in abstract form or going to the other extreme and using words such as bartan etc. > And often, I find myself struggling to > find meaning in his words - not the meanings of words themselves > but of the poetry as a whole. A classic example of this is > "hum ne dekhi hai un aaNkhoN ki mehakti khushboo, haath se chhoo > ke ise rishtoN ka ilzaam na do". I beg to differ here... this is one my fav. Gulzar songs (and there are many). He has captured a lot of wonderful thoughts here... "HonT kuch kehte nahin kaampte honTon pe magar Kitne Khaamosh afsaane ruke rehte hain Sirf ehsaas hai ye rooh se mehsoo karo Pyaar ko pyaar hi rehnedo koi naam na do...." Excellent lyrics! Some more lines of Gulzar which I love are: "Koi waada nahin kiya lekin, kyun tera intezaar rehta hai Bewajaah jab quaraar mil jaae, dil baRa bequaraar rehta hai..." (Jab bhi ye dil udaas hota hai, jaane kaun aas paas hota hai..." > Most of all, it is not fair to say that all other lyricists ought > to learn from Gulzar. I am sure many RMIMers other than myself > would strongly disagree. As a matter of fact, maybe Gulzar needs > to learn a thing or two from others !! U said it!! And since Guri's RJGK on Sahir is just round the corner, I don't want to point out my fav. lyricist's gems. But, here are a couple of wonderful lines form the KING of lyricists... The manner in which Sahir caputures deep thoughts in simple terms is amazing! "Ajnabi si ho, magar GHair nahin lagti ho Wahem se bhi jo ho naazuk woh yaqueen lagti ho!!" (Maine shaed tumhe...") "Sansar se bhaage phirte ho, Bhagwan ko tum kya paaoge Is lok ko bhi apna na sake, us lok me bhi pachtaaoge..." Each and every verse in this song, nay movie, is an ab. gem! >>P.P.S: flame-proof vest on :-) :-) > Good precaution...you are going to need it :-) :-) He sure will... Do I hear the Clemson gang typing away in defence of Gulzar ?? Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)..... and a Sahir FANdamentalist!! > Chetan Subject: Re: Gulzar From: abhay.avachat@blr.sni.de (Abhay Avachat) Date: 1995/04/22 Message-Id: <9504221110.AA19849@delss02> Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc [More Headers] The Gulzar-Sahir war starts again ! Sami wrote : : > pradeep@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) wrote: : >> : >>P.S. By the way when I hear lyrics like this, or that new "libaas" : >>song: neeli nadee ?? geelaa chaand ??, I am forced to say that : >>ALL other lyricists would need many more years of schooling at : >>the "Gulzar school of lyrics-writing" before they can even begin : >>to express such depths of human emotion !!! And Pradeep, should we say that Gulzar needs to join Sahir's institute to learn "Importance of Simplicity and Fluidity in Poetry" ? :-) Hell, this is worse than Rafi-KK war :-( : > Gulzar's lyrics are too weird for me. I cannot understand : > and/or appreciate most of them ! In this category : : I agree with Chetan here.. sometimes, Gulzar puts a simple thought in vague : terms and foists it as deep poetry. For instance, while talking about KHwaab, : Gulzar says "..palkon me lena inhe, aankhon me chubh jaaenge...". Well, that's just his style. You may like it or you may not. But IMHO it does not reduce the beauty of a Poem. There are many others who do those kind of tricks, but they sound like hyppos. Gulzar does it naturally. : : > "koi kinara jo kinare se mile woh apna kinara hai". The : > use of words like "bistar" and "sofe" and "bartan" find a : > place only in Gulzar's lyrics. Such words somehow seem : > inappropriate for poetry. : : EXACTLY my thoughts!! Words such as "bartan" and "choola" completely put me off. : Of course it's good to express thoughts in simple terms, but there should be : a basic minimum quality level for words used in poetry. Actually, I do not mind such words like "budhaa baabaa" present in the songs of Gulzar. Again that's just a style of expression. And it does give a distinctive flavour. You may like it, or you may not !! : And then again, we have : that classic "Prose or Poetry" (Abhay kuch yaad aaya ? :-) ) song "Mera kuch : saamaan...." in which he says "Gila to main le aae, sookha lauTado...." or : something to that effect. So, he's either putting simple thoughts in abstract : form or going to the other extreme and using words such as bartan etc. YES ! That's the point !! The borderline between Prose and Poetry is thin, but does one have to stay on the borderline ? Gulzar sacrifices the rhyme so often ! It's not that he cannot stick to the norms or he is incapable of writing a smooth Poem. His overusage of Muktachhand puts me off. It doesn't seem necessary. And as Sami says, Gulzar deliberately indulges in using dificult similes and complicated expressions, when they are not necessary. Why does he ignore .. saadagi bhi to ek qayaamat ki adaa hoti hai Again, that's just a style ! And I don't like it much !! And before anyone gets a doubt about my admiration of Gulzar, I must say that I have a tremendous respect for this great Poet. But that doesn't mean I like all the aspects of his work. : > "hum ne dekhi hai un aaNkhoN ki mehakti khushboo, haath se chhoo : > ke ise rishtoN ka ilzaam na do". BTW, thanks to all who explained me the meaning of this song. There were so many ... Renu, Ashish, Guri, Pintu, Manoj and many more. Thanks to all of you. : Some more lines of Gulzar which I love are: : : "Koi waada nahin kiya lekin, kyun tera intezaar rehta hai : Bewajaah jab quaraar mil jaae, dil baRa bequaraar rehta hai..." : : (Jab bhi ye dil udaas hota hai, jaane kaun aas paas hota hai..." And my favourite "dil dhoondata hai ..." is also amazing, to-the-point. : > Most of all, it is not fair to say that all other lyricists ought : > to learn from Gulzar. I am sure many RMIMers other than myself : > would strongly disagree. As a matter of fact, maybe Gulzar needs : > to learn a thing or two from others !! Yes Chetan, you are right. Just because one likes Gulzar, doesn't mean others were dumbos. Are all KKKlaners fanatic in all their views ? :-) : lines form the KING of lyricists... The manner in which Sahir caputures deep : thoughts in simple terms is amazing! : : "Ajnabi si ho, magar GHair nahin lagti ho : Wahem se bhi jo ho naazuk woh yaqueen lagti ho!!" (Maine shaed tumhe...") I have yet to overcome the nasha of tum mujhe bhul bhi jaao to ye haq hai tumko meri baat aur hai, maine to muhabbat ki hai So much nazaakat is really diffucult to handle for my heart ! : >>P.P.S: flame-proof vest on :-) :-) : > Good precaution...you are going to need it :-) :-) : Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)..... and a Sahir FANdamentalist!! - Abhay. And me too :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Abhay Avachat Internet : Abhay.Avachat@blr.sni.de Siemens Information Systems Ltd. B/8 Jangpura B, Mathura Road. New Delhi 110014. INDIA. Phone : +91 -11 463 1245 ------------------------------------------------------------------------