(During the course of this transcription, I made an effort to preserve the style and manner in which George Harris spoke to Jeff Stack, a free-lance reporter and FOR coordinator, in the audiotaped interview. At certain times I edited phrases, which were repeated and/or which I considered to be superfluous. Out of consideration for the reader, I did this to shorten the length of the written interview. In addition, although George’s grammar isn’t the King’s English or MLA perfect (whose is, and who cares anyway?), I chose to transcribe it for the written record as close to verbatim as possible. I felt that if I were to alter his grammar on the written record, and worry about political correctness, I would distort the reality which I experienced from the taped interview. Finally, there are larger portions of the interview which I chose not transcribe because information was repeated and, again, this would add to the length of the written transcript-- comments from Nicole Overeem, transcriber of the tape)

Jeff Stack: Just introduce yourself if you would and we’ll see if this (the tape recording) works.

George Harris: We’ll let me say my name is George Harris and I plan (according to the state) to be executed September 13.

JS: So you got the word about a week ago or so?

GH: ... (unintelligible) ... August 14.

JS: The whole notion of years ago getting a death sentence and being told you're going to die and then how many years later has it been? Is it seven or eight years later now?

GH: I’ve been in since July 1990.

JS: So ten years later. Its a constant reality, and it seems like it would be a constant cloud that just kind of hangs on you all the time. What has it been like for you this whole time?

GH: Oh well you know basically I’ve been working on my case. I know my case (the conviction) is a first degree murder case, but I didn’t plan to kill nobody. It was a spur of the moment thing. A guy pawned some guns to me and I gave them to a friend to keep for safety. When I went to go pick them up they tried to rob me .

JS: So you’re saying that Stanley Willoughby was trying to hide or keep them from you?

GH: Yes. (He seemed ready to).kill me for the guns ...He had a gun and I had a gun and I just shot him once. ...You know the heat of things ...I’m not no killer. I wouldn’t kill you if you and me friends and you tell me you can’t find them (the guns) or you put them up or something. I’ll tell you I’ll come back for them.

JS: Can you retrace for us, because I wasn’t in that house that day in Kansas City, what happened?

GH: Earlier that day I was somewhere gambling and two guys came up to me ... They wanted to pawn some stuff.

JS: You weren’t out looking for guns to try to hurt anyone?

GH: No. These guys just brought two guns to me to pawn, and I took the guns ...cause I was doing them a favor ...I (lent) them 500 dollars. I didn’t want to keep them in the trunk of my car. That’s when I saw Michael Taylor coming up the street. I asked him to do me a favor. I said keep these two guns for me ... Then I walked behind his car and he called one of his friends off the porch. I handed him the guns. I told him I’d be back later to get them. I went back later ...

JS: That was Willoughby?

GH: No, that was Michael Taylor.

JS: Michael Taylor was the friend you flagged down and then Willoughby was the person who Michael gave the guns to?

GH: Yes, who he gave the guns to.

JS: This wasn’t at Willoughby’s house though was it?

GH: Yes. At his house.

JS: So several folks live together?

GH: Yes, both lived together. It was a dope house.

JS: Was it crack mainly? Or what kind of drugs? ...

GH: All types of drugs. They sell drugs there, but I just left the guns. When I came back around 8:00 (p.m.)to pick the guns up I knocked on the door. I asked if Michael Taylor and them guys up stairs? ... I caught a seat, one chair here was in the living room. I was sitting in the living room and a guy went up stairs to get him. He took his time. Maybe about 20 or 30 minutes to come down stairs. And when he (Taylor) got down stairs I asked him to give me the guns. He said they didn’t have the guns. I said what do you mean you don’t have the guns? I was just here (earlier in) the day. Just give me the guns so I can get out of here. I didn’t want to be there because I knew it was a dope house. For some reason the other guy, (Willoughby) the guy I shot, he just got to arguing with me. Both of them were on the steps, and he whispered something and I’m sitting there watching. They had another guy there watching them all. One of them went into another room and I caught myself looking so that when I did turn around I saw the other guy reaching for a gun.

JS: That was Willoughby?

GH: Yeah, reaching for a gun and I jumped up and had a gun on me and I shot him.

JS: When I was reading through the appeal that Gardiner Davis (Harris's attorney) had written a while back it made me think if the roles had been reversed. They never found a gun apparently on him.

GH: No, they never found a gun. But here’s the thing. Here’s the whole scenario of the case. Now its supposed to be first degree murder. You know I got a lawyer John O’Connor. He really didn’t do no investigation.. My understanding of the case is that its not about the murder. They alleged that I was committing robberies in Kansas City. I’m being punished for something that I never was charged for. But I’ve read the paper (before his trial) for a couple days,...the headlines say that I’m supposed to be executed and that kind of stuff. And that I was appointed for these robberies, and John O’Connor was my trial lawyer ...

JS: You were acquitted for a robbery?

GH: Yeah.

JS: Was it connected with ...

GH: It wasn’t connected with none of this. I’m just saying how they’re using things that don’t really have nothing to do with these circumstances to give me the death sentence.

JS: Reading over this trial brief its pretty incredible that they’re saying you were going to do a drive by shooting.

GH: All that, that’s a lie. That’s something the prosecutor and a witness who testified ...

JS: Your former girlfriend?

GH: It wasn’t really a girlfriend, just a female I was dealing with. I don’t do drive-by shootings. I don’t shoot people.

JS: You don’t have any other violent criminal record?

GH: Yeah. I was convicted in 1976 for robbery. I had a conviction in 1982. They gave me a stealing and possession of stolen property. After I caught this murder case I ... (decided to leave) ... Kansas City.(traveled east where I committed) robbery in Columbia and got busted... That conviction that happened there happened after the murder. They really weren’t suppose to use it in my trial.

JS: They (prosecutors) used both the robbery and another armed criminal intent, they used both those as aggravating circumstances in getting the death sentence?

GH: Yeah, they used all of them. They used all of them including the robbery in Columbia. That’s the only reason I have those two convictions. John O’Connor he (failed to dispute those convictions, so) ... to the jury like I had five convictions, but I didn’t have five convictions at that time.

JS: You had two.

GH: One in Columbia in 1982 and one in 1976. But they’re the only convictions I had. And another thing I’ve been trying to get somebody to look at ... I had three eyewitnesses that were supposed to went to the police and tell their version of what happened that night. And there were other people who lived next door. Michael Taylor’s mother lived next door. They weren’t even there or around but they did come to the house. He (Taylor) cussed his mother out.

JS: Told the mother to leave? So she was there before Willoughby was shot?

GH: Told the mother and sister to leave. Yeah she was there but it wasn’t nothing Wasn’t nothing really was said, but he cussed his mother out. I saw when he cussed her out, and I said 'man what’d you cuss your mother for'? And he said 'Every time they come around something always happens' ... Everything happened ...All these people ... (supposed) eyewitness to the shooting and all of that. They weren’t there. They next door. They got the mother (of Taylor) to say that she heard me say that I was going to kill the nigger. They got the daughter to say .. she heard me say 'just burn the nigger'. And then you got another female that, her name was Amy Strothers. I don’t know if she’s still living or not. Somebody said she passed away. She was there. They came in,.. we spoke. But we weren’t arguing. ... I wasn’t disrespecting nobody. But then, all of a sudden, by the time we was getting ready to go to trial they get all these people who don’t know nothing about the case. They take police statements from them. Each of these witnesses, like it happened March 11, they taken these statements from each witness, like 10 days apart. Its like they’s all friends. You know what I’m saying. And they knew their son was a drug dealer. I guess the prosecutor was threaten to send them to prison ... JS: Send Michael Taylor to prison?

GH: Yeah. Send them to prison. They all come down there and lied on me.

JS: Did the police end up raiding the house that day, and did they confiscate anything?

GH: Well they got drugs bags, but they keep all the dope at his mother’s house, ... next door. You know what I’m saying? And then they got the little brother (of Taylor), saying they the one who hid the guns. But like I said to my lawyer, if you read his transcript testimony he’s saying he hid the guns alone. But, you see, two people hid the guns. He and his little brother hid the guns ... But, you read his testimony, he was there by himself when he hid the guns... His little brother hid the guns, Cortez supposed to hid the guns ... But if you read the Missouri Supreme Court opinion and the Eighth Circuit opinion they contradicting themselves. They saying that Cortez and Anthony are the ones that hid the guns. But, if you go back to trial transcripts you’ll see where Cortez is saying he hid the guns by himself. It can’t be because Cortez wasn’t even there. He wasn’t even there. All the other people was there, like maybe three people up stairs and like three people down stairs and then you got three other witnesses that actually seen the shooting that I told my lawyer to talk to. A guy named Jordan Potts and Ben Brown. You know what I’m saying. They seen what went on. And when I got arrested I told my lawyer about these other guys. (Ben Brown) said he seen a gun....(He knew) we (Willoughby and I) got into a little argument .....‘Cause he was in the dining room sitting down. He said we arguing and stuff like this.

JS: So Ben Brown was in the house at the time?

GH: Yeah, he was in the house. He was in the house. He seen everything going on. And he seen the movement of what Hank Willoughby was doing. When I seen him reach for a gun I just jumped up and shot one time. I didn’t shoot two times. I shot him one time.

JS: If you were intending to kill you wouldn’t have wanted to have any witnesses. You would have shot the other witnesses that had been there.

GH: But these dudes, they got almost 15 people. You know what I’m saying. I ain’t going to kill you in front of your 15 friends. I don’t know nobody but you. I know, I’ve been around awhile. I’m not no killer. I don’t know the man I shot. You know what I’m saying, if they’s just going to rob me. They could’ve had the guns. All you got to say is Man let me buy these guns. I’ll buy them. You know what I’m saying. But somebody pawned them to me. I’m just saying, I knew the person that pawned them to me really didn’t want them ‘cause they was on crack anyway. I’m just the type of guy that should keep money in my pocket. I do things for certain people. You know what I’m saying? I know if I get these guns and they didn’t come back to get them. I could’ve sold them for 1000 dollars a piece. You know what I’m saying?,... I’m not a killer. I didn’t go there to kill that man. I shot the man one time in self defense. And they just straight up lied.

JS: You’re not disputing that you shot him and killed him.

GH: Shot him in self defense. That’s all I did. I shot him with a .44 magnum. The way the prosecutors saying I aimed. You can’t aim. I just jumped up out of my chair and just shot the gun, because I saw the man reach for a gun. You know, I seen this happening.

JS: At least it looked like it was?

GH: It was a gun. I know ...I’ve been shot three times. (I told myself) I can’t get shot know more. I’ve been shot on three different occasions.

JS: What happened those times?

GH: Well, you know I used to gamble alot. I used to keep alot of money in my pocket at all times, and if people know that you keep money they’ll be trying to rob you. That was my case. Me getting shot three different occasions. You know what I’m saying?

JS: Well George, you might back up a little to give people an image of why you might (have been) feeling so tense? Can you briefly talk about the three times?

GH: I was shot on three different occasions ‘cause somebody tried to rob me... After I’d been shot I started carrying a weapon ‘cause I gamble alot and I keep alot of money.

JS: Where were you shot? Where on your body?

GH: I was shot in the wrist. I was shot in the chest, and shot in the butt.

JS: As you were leaving or trying to get out of the way?

GH: Yeah. Basically. When I got shot in the butt I was trying to get away. A guy was trying to rob me. When I got shot in the chest it was a surprise. They jumped out of some bushes on me and shot me.

JS: They were people that you knew?

GH: Well I didn’t get no faces. I never did get no faces.

JS: How old were you in each of those situations and how was your health affected?

GH: All of this happened in the same year.

JS: What year was this?

GH: Well one of them happened in 1988. You know what I’m saying. It was in 1988 when all this happened. When I got shot.

JS: Three different occasions though.

GH: Three different occasions. You know you got a guy ,.. watching guys who win the most money ... (unintelligible) ... Dudes know that when I left there I won alot.

JS: Craps mainly?

GH: Yeah with the craps. You win money. Some guys try to lay on you or follow you home or whatever... That’s when I decided to carry a gun. You know I’m not going to let nobody kill me.

JS: When you were shot in the chest did you have to be in the hospital for a while?

GH: Yeah. I wore a colostomy bag and all that type of stuff. I stayed in the hospital for two months or at the most 90 days.

JS: What kind of damage did your body sustain?

GH: It messed my whole insides up. Messed my whole insides up. I was shot with a 9mm. I was shot with a, well I still got the bullet in here from a .38.

JS: In your wrist?

GH: Yeah, in my wrist.

JS: It’s still in there you say? It’s not still imbedded in there?

GH: Yeah, it’s still right there. I got the bullet right there.

JS: Oh the bullet is still right there. Oh, I see it now (a bulge under the skin on the wrist)! Why didn’t they take it out?

GH: It’s on my nerve they say. They say they can’t move it. But like I said, back to the house ...I went there to pick up something that belonged to me, and then I would’ve gone on about my business. But like I say, I got there and they started arguing with me like they didn’t know where the guns were and all this stuff was. I eventually got to arguing back with them. Man give me the guns so that I can go. For some second or something you know it’s just like he (Willoughby) changed. He didn’t actually say he was going to kill me, but you’d just have had to be there to see it. If you’d been there you’d have seen what went on. The man went for a gun.

JS: How long after the shooting took place did it take the police to show up to check out the scene?

GH: I don’t know ‘cause I left. I didn’t stay there.

JS: No, I mean from what you could see in the police reports?

GH: From what I can see in the report, I’d say about 30 minutes.

JS: So you’re saying that Michael Taylor or somebody else took the gun that Willoughby might have had and ... ?

GH: Yeah. Somebody took that gun. You know what I’m saying? Somebody took that gun out of that house. But really, I got the information that Ben took it.

JS: The Ben that testified on you behalf?

GH: Yeah. Testified on my behalf, but you know that I’ve come to the understanding that he come to 2915 (post-conviction hearing). He admits that he seen the guy reach for a gun and he admitted that he decided to take the gun. Come to find out, he the one that picked the gun up. That’s why I was talking to my lawyer the other day to tell him that I got that information. I got the information now that my lawyer gave me. The guy I shot, his girlfriend she talking to him now that she lived with him and they got three kids together.

JS: Lived with who?

GH: Willoughby. Used to live with Willoughby. They used to stay together. Now she coming forward and saying that Willoughby carried a gun ... and when we went to trial she say he never had a gun, he never carried a gun. (Now she says) He’s a violent guy.... This testimony wasn’t presented in my trial. This would have shown the jury what type of person he was ... (unintelligible) ... the outcome would have been different. I could have got self defense. My case is not first degree murder ... Kendra Rimmer (Willougby's former girlfriend) is her name.

JS: And where is she at?

GH: She’s in Kansas City. You know I talked with them the other day and they told me they talked with her and got an interview from her. I waiting for them to send me a copy of what she said ...My whole situation is really about them alleging what I did in the past. You know what I’m saying. This is what my case is about. They don’t care about that man I shot. You know I got death sentence (plus) 500 years for shooting a man one (time), and they got guys on death row (and others sentenced to prison for life whose) cases are more brutal than mine. You know what I’m saying? They never brought me a deal. Me and my lawyer never discussed strategy.

JS: Michael Taylor was the State’s main witness really? Your attorney, he called nobody (to testify) for (your) side did he?

GH: No. He called nobody. I was living with Beverly McCaffey at the time.... back when I shot the guy I told Beverly that ... I just shot a guy in self defense. She was kind of messed up. You know what I’m saying? I said I got to get on out of here.

JS: Were you a user as well? Were you using some kind of drug at the time?

GH: No. I don’t use drugs, period. I don’t use drugs. I ain’t never smoked crack. I ain’t never snorted coke. Well, I have drank a little Crown Royal or Hennessey before, you know stuff like that. Just on special occasions. But, I don’t use drugs, period. I don’t smoke marijuana. I don’t do none of that. All I did was gamble. I gambled for a living. That’s what I did. And they’re thinking I was around here doing robberies in Kansas City all the time. I’ve been here, and the police have been to my mom’s house saying I’ve robbed. I say how can I rob when I’ve been on death row. You see what I’m saying? When you got a (nick) name Baby, people easily remember my name. People use my name. People talk to the police and ....and they figure I’m the top robber.... I admit I did do a robbery. I did time for it. I paid for it. But all that other stuff they keep saying, like in the paper they keep saying these four robberies I did... Soon as I make bond, and go to jail and have to pay a lawyer some money, my case is dismissed. And then they pick me up..(The courts) do the same thing and dismissed (charges). And do the same thing, then dismiss. And they do it again, and then dismiss. The last one, that really helped me in this case was an African-American woman. She was like six-(foot) something, and she said whoever robbed the last place was taller than her. You see what I’m saying? And they had the gun in her face. Now I’m just 5’2",...(Also). she couldn’t identify nobody who did the robbery. But, when we took a recess out in the hall way and the police come up to me and said my name and tell me this the guy. We go back in the court room, she picks me out now. When the lawyer cross-examined and gave her a photograph of me from the police mugshots, she couldn’t remember holding the mugshots ..... in the store that particular day. Now he tell her the reason, and they kept saying my name and here I am sitting in the court room. You see what I’m saying? They was after me for some type of reason. And then you got another guy, I guess Jordan Potts, where he admitted and said I did robberies with him. I never was picked up for the robberies he said I did with him. I ain’t never did no robberies with him. They made some type of deal with him. He got ten years for it. Everybody just got to lying. You know. They’s making deals with everybody. The girl I got arrested with named Sabrina, okay we caught a case in Columbia.

JS: She was with you in Columbia?

GH: Yeah. In Columbia. I admit that, I did that.

JS: What did you rob there?

GH: It was a grocery store, Shnuck’s Grocery Store,... I admit I did that ‘cause I was trying to get a little extra money to leave Kansas City. I was going to plead guilty to that, but when it come to turn around they charged her with it. I think she got probation out of it. When she got out of jail she got two more different charges. She don’t know what my case is about. She just knew the police was looking for me. Okay she was in jail when the police came and got me.

JS: In Boone County?

GH: Yeah. In Boone County Jail. She was in (a different part of the) Jail. The police came and got me the next day (took me to jail) in Kansas City. They left her in Boone County by herself. When I left, she found out I was gone I guess. She end up calling the police saying she got some type of information concerning my case. And when she called them she said it was a dope deal. You know what I’m saying? Some guys ripped me off for 30,000 dollars. It wasn’t anything like that.

JS: She was saying that is what you had told her?

GH: Yeah. That’s what I told her. That’s what it’s all about. You know what I’m saying? But, it wasn’t about that. I got a deposition where she’s saying the same thing. But, as soon as we got to trial she’s knows about machine guns,...(Another issue involves two other women),..Sherry Porter was with me after the fact (shooting). ‘Cause I went to Beverly (unsure of her last name) first and then I went to Sherry’s. We went to a hotel ‘cause I was trippin’ and concerned with what I had just done. You know what I’m saying? And we went to the hotel and I stayed there three days.

JS: That was with Beverly?

GH: No. That was with Shari Porter. We stayed at the hotel three days.

JS: Trying to keep a low profile?

GH: Just trying to stay off the streets ‘cause I knew they looking for me. It was on the news. And Sabrina was looking for me. She beeped me on the beeper. I had Shari to call her back. They got in an argument. You know, two girls messing around. You know, she mad ‘cause I’m with her... I say give me the phone. Ain’t nobody going to be telling me and arguing over the telephone....I say, 'do you want to leave town?'. ... (unintelligible) ... She say yes. I say get your stuff together we going to leave town,.... She agreed to leave Kansas City with me. That’s when the case in Columbia came about. But, like I said she don’t have no knowledge of what happened in that house. They told her it was about machine guns. ..You know they contradicting themselves.

JS: Now was it the prosecuting attorney in Jackson County who took the deposition?

GH: Yeah. In Jackson County. Yeah, him and John O’Connor. During a part of this deposition I was in the (Jackson)county jail. Sherry Porter used to come and visit me. And that particular day I was doing a deposition and she come to visit me. Someone informed her that they just took Baby Harris across the street to the court house. So she comes to the court house and they taking a deposition. She (Sabrina was) saying, or that someone’s saying that I supposed to be shooting a house. And all this type of stuff. I was called ... I didn’t have no business talking to her ‘cause I know she don’t know nothing about my case. And when Sherriy come into the court room that’s when she pointed and said that’s the girl who called me on the phone. The lawyer should have put Sherry on the stand then. He got through taking a deposition from Sabrina and preserve her testimony for me because I asked him. You know what I’m saying? I want her called as a witness.

JS: Yeah, you wanted to have Sherry Porter called.

GH: Yeah. Because when she (Sabrina) said me and her was together I come over to her house with the guns and we was supposed to be driving down Kansas City from like 31st street to 75th street doing 180 mph. Not stopping at any stop lights, with the police on every two blocks. I can’t drive down (that way and not be stopped),... She lied. She just lied, saying I had the guns,...saying I had the guns in the car and I’m going to kill somebody.(naming names).... And she saying I was going to the clubs to try and kill them. This is what they were talking about with the drive-by shooting. And Michael Taylor said, Baby did come by there earlier ... (unintelligible) ... do a drive-by shooting of all of us. Ask all of us. The rest of their testimony don’t say that. He the only one saying that. And Sabrina, you know they got them lying on me. I don’t do drive-by shootings.

JS: Yeah. Sabrina had the two extra charges.

GH: After the fact.

JS: And were they dropped as a result of a bargain, do you know?

GH: (Dropped in exchange).. for her testimony. She was with a guy named Waymen Boyinton ... (unintelligible) ... His first name is Waymen. Here is a case where ... (unintelligible) ... I read the case and I can pull it and send it to you. Here is the case about him. They were together. They robbed some woman’s house.

JS: Robbed who?

GH: They robbed some woman. I don’t know her name, but they robbed her and shot her three or four times. They dragged her to the trunk of her car. They took her TV and her jewelry. And Sabrina .. pawned the jewelry. You see what I’m saying? Pawned the jewelry. for 400 dollars at a pawn shop in Kansas City. I don’t know if she testified to this or whatever. Anyway, he got 60 years for this.

JS: He got 60 years?

GH: 60 years.

JS: Did the woman die?

GH: Yeah. She died. He got 60 years. Now he shot the woman four or five times, he gets 60. I shoot a man one time. You see what I’m saying? Now there’s another case that Sabrina is in. She had a house on 58th and Wabash. She was selling drugs out of it. She had some little guys and they was selling drugs. And an undercover police officer got wind of it. He went to kick in, and one of the guys ... (unintelligible) ... She sold the undercover (officer) some drugs. That’s how they come back with a search warrant. When they come back another guy was there and he said nothing was happening. And the guy kept pressing and it ended up one of the guys shot the undercover policeman. Now that’s her house. She (was with) another guy named Michael Lumkin... He’s in the Cross Roads (prison now, near Cameron MO)...

JS: Okay. Yeah, and was Willoughby black? Was he African-American?

GH: Yeah, all of them was black.

JS: Lumkin as well?

GH: Yeah.

JS: You say Lumkin was with Sabrina as well, or know?

GH: He had been with Sabrina,... And then I run into him in the county jail. He told me that she was going to make up a story against me... about me getting into some trouble, and she’s trying to save herself.

JS: Your attorney didn’t (have them testify)?

GH: Yeah. He didn’t ....called nobody on my behalf. Witnesses I wanted. None of this trial strategy... If he would have talked to Ben. Oh, he went to talk to Potts. He talked to Potts on February 4th. My trial started on February 5th. ...and he was in knowledge of Ben .. I sent him to Potts before then ‘cause Potts could give him the location that ... (unintelligible) ... He went to them on the 4th and got the deposition and talked with him and got all this information from him and then didn’t use it at trial. Then the prosecutor they called him in the guilt phase of the trial ... about robbery. And he denied that me and him was doing robbery.

JS: Lumpkin was denying?

GH: No.

JS: Who?

GH: Potts.

JS: Oh, Potts. Right.

GH: Potts is denying that we’d been doing robberies. When they put him on the stand, nobody ever asked him were you in that house when Baby Harris shot Willoughby? He would have said yeah I was there. What you see there? You see what I’m saying? Nobody ever asked him did he see anything? If they would have asked him the question "Were you there?" he would have said "yes". Then they could have said "Who were you there with?" He could have said "Ben and (unintelligible),... I (also) went to my lawyer to try and present this (the site of the shooting) as a drug house. ...(He told me) ... "George I object to doing this" because he says "it messes with their credibility. Okay, if this messes with their credibility, he could have preserved this issue for me without the jury being privy to (it) ... You could excuse the jury,... Just put it on record for me.

JS: So it could be preserved for later anyway. For appeals?

GH: Right. But, he didn’t do anything like that ... The man (O'Connor) knew what he was doing. He just took all of my money and sent me to death row. They (he and the prosecution) worked together to send me to death row. After the fact (trial, one man asked)... John O’Connor "What you going to do with 'Baby' Harris?" He said, "Baby Harris done got away with too much stuff. Its about time we get Baby Harris." You know what I’m saying? I’m not no killer. I admit I did things wrong, but I ain’t never killed nobody until March 11th. I shot this man in self defense.

JS: You saw what you saw, but on a gut level and as a human being how does it make you feel knowing that you killed a human being?

GH: I feel bad, you know. I feel really bad about it. It happened and I think about it everyday. You know, I keep saying to myself that I would have just walked away. But the way the situation was, I would have probably be shot in my back.

JS: And having been shot three times,...

GH: ...I’m not going to take no more ... I’m blessed to still be living myself. You know. I got shot by a 9mm in the chest and it hit all through my body and bounced all on my ribs and all that type of stuff. I’m just looking at god for my time. But like you said, I shot a man and he died ... It’s sad and I feel bad about it. I got to speak to his mother, and I apologized to all of them. I just want the truth to come out. I didn’t go over there to kill her son.

JS: Did you say you talked to the mother?

GH: I talked to her during the trial. ... I apologized to her and stuff like that, but I ain’t never talked to her personally. But, like I said you know I know how she feels. But, like I said I didn’t go over there to kill her son.

JS: Have you tried through Gardiner to reach the Willoughbys at all?

GH: No. I ain’t never did that.

JS: Have you wanted to at all?

GH: No, ... I seen the news report about how they (some of Willoughby's relatives are) talking about wanting me to die now. I can understand how they may feel, but I want her to know the real truth about March 11. For real. Even if your son was a dope dealer... It’s just something he did and I beat him to the punch. He just happened to have a gun and I just shot him. I didn’t plan none of this. You know what I’m saying? I wouldn’t kill you if we got in a confrontation. I wouldn’t kill you in front of 15 other people ... I’ve been on the streets for a while. ...If you did something that was awful to me then I might want to kill you, but that ain’t my lifestyle.

JS: Well the money that you’d win gambling, what did you do with it?

GH: I lived off it. I’d take care of things. You know, I had kids. You know what I’m saying? I was paying for their school. You know my personal things like that.

JS: How many kids do you have?

GH: I got two sons and two daughters.

JS: How old are they?

GH: I got a son that’s 12, and a daughter that’s 18, and another daughter who is 24 or 25.

JS: Do you keep in touch with them? Are you able?

GH: Yeah, I keep in touch with all of them. Yeah, I’m just trying right now to keep them strong about this. You know, its hard on them. You know we’re all hoping that the governor, with the information that (has been presented will stop the execution)... And if you read my transcript, I was conned myself. If you read my transcript, you can see what this lawyer did to me ...He didn’t do nothing.

JS: Before I forget, what was the age of your fourth child? You mentioned three ages, the 24 year old, the 18 year old and the 12 year old.

GH: I got another child by a woman. Right now he should be ... (unintelligible) ... I ain’t seen him in so long. You know, and I ain’t talked to her neither. Being truthful, I’m not sure he’s my son or not ... (unintelligible) ... if I need to I’d be willing to step up and claim my responsibility. I ain’t seen him and I ain’t seen no pictures of him, but I’d be willing to take that responsibility personally.

JS: Is this a boy?

GH: Yeah, a boy.

JS: I’m a parent myself. How has this has all this been on you as a parent? And on the kids?

GH: Really, I’ve never talked to them about this situation. You know what I’m saying? You know, I always try to talk to them about something positive ... (unintelligible) ... I try to tell them how things is going to turn out right. (The kids heard different things on the street about the guns pawned to me),...I said if they (Willoughbt and Taylor) had really want them guns that bad all they’d have to do is say let me buy them. I would have said you can have them. There ain’t nothing I can do with machine guns. But basically, one machine gun is an automatic weapon.

JS: One was an Uzi and the other ...

GH: They really wasn’t an Uzi. They just automatic weapons. You know what I’m saying? They called them machine guns, but they weren’t really machine guns. They’s just automatic weapons. They was just in the box. I looked at them. I ain’t had a chance to really look at the real good. I just knew they was some guns. And I’d seen they was all right. I’d caught myself doing a favor ‘ I just loaned him 500 and I knew he was on crack and he wasn’t coming back to get these guns. I knew that when I gave him the money. The next person that comes along owns them. They can have them ‘cause I ain’t got no use for them.

JS: And I guess if you were going to use them right away you would have kept them, like in the trunk of your car?

GH: Yeah, I would have kept them. You know what I’m saying? But they saying I was planning to do a drive-by shooting. I don’t know who I was planning to do a drive-by shooting on.

JS: Right. Now there was a person one woman named by the name of Dale.

GH: Yeah. Some guy named Dale. That’s a lie.

JS: One thing I noticed, they mentioned the name Dale, but they never ...

GH: He wasn’t even there. He wasn’t even at the house. Dale wasn’t even at the house. The guy I know named Dale, if that’s who she’s speaking about. But as far as me taking a machine gun to shoot him, ... We ain’t never had no misunderstanding. ... I don’t know where all this information comes from. How the prosecutor did it, but they did a good job ... to railroad me. Because that’s what this is. Like I said..... All you have to do is read the police report because she (Sabrina) don’t know nothing about this case. All she knows is a dope deal that someone was supposed to beat me out of 30,000 dollars, but when we get to trial she knows about machine guns. ... and she’s saying I’m going to do a drive-by shooting.,... I guess she really got attached to me. But then, like I say after this situation came down she knew that I was staying with someone else. She just got jealous of it. I just look at it like if she can’t have me I guess nobody else supposed to. But when she got upset from these other two troubles, incidents, that’s when she come to lie on me.... I got all this information through the guy in jail. ..he’d been staying with her since he was sixteen... I had seen him over at her house.

JS: This is the guy who’d ...

GH: Michael Lumpkin.

JS: Okay. And then by chance you guys just kind of run into each other later on?

GH: Yeah. He happened to see me ... (unintelligible) ... and hear about my case. You know, I seen him in jail.... That’s when they both shot the police officer. He up in jail now. And when I see him, he told me "Man that girl you with, she going to blah, blah, blah." I said "blah, blah, blah what? She don’t know about my case" .... (He said) "She going to get you because she said the prosecutor’s people come out to her house.....

Trying to get her to come and testify against you." Like I said, later on down the line that’s when they took the deposition. Had her over there and then all of sudden now she’s saying that it’s supposed to be about machine guns and dope deals. She mentioned that about the dope deal, but like I said when I found out ... she said ...machine guns. She don’t know nothing about whatever happened in the house March 11. I ain’t never said that I told her what did

JS: And then it was Sherry Porter who you did tell what happened?

GH: Yeah. If you talk to Sherry Porter. (She)was with me after the fact. Me and her was together for three days. And I didn’t see Sabrina until I decided to leave Kansas City, but she’s saying the night of the incident me and her was together driving down Prospect doing 70 - 80 mph.... I’m headed to a club called Champagne’s and wanting to kill somebody. A guy named Dale. Now you know I can’t drive down a busy street doing 75 - 80 mph. And I ain’t stop at no lights, stop signs or nothing, you know what I’m saying?.. The jury believes something like this ...and I know you can’t do something like this. Not on Prospect. That’s the main, busy street in Kansas City.... That’s a real busy street. And I can’t do that.... I’d been wrecked and killed myself, or something would have happened for me to try to do some speeding like that.

JS: So she is saying that you both went all the way to the Champagne Club? And then he wasn’t there?

GH: Yeah. Went to the Champagne Club and then the person wasn’t there.

JS: She’s saying you walked into the club with the gun too?

GH: Yes. She’s saying I walked in there with the gun and that I come back out. Then she says I tried to go back in but that the bouncer seen me with the gun and wouldn’t let me in the club. Now this is with two machine guns? Come on. Be real.... But basically, my whole trial is about my character. It’s not about March 11. They don’t care about Hank Willoughby. All they concerned about is robberies. You know, this is what its all about.

JS: Yeah. Well it sounds like you may have been with different people, different women. You’ve gambled for sure. And then you held some guns. What was your life like before that time? You get to a point where you end up depending on the gambling money. What was your life like earlier in Kansas City?

GH: I used to just gamble. That’s all I did. You know. That’s what I did everyday. You know what I’m saying? That was my hustle. I gambled real ‘cause I can gamble. Everyday. You know what I’m saying? If I winned me two or 3,000 dollars a day that was cool. Sometimes I might get a little luckier and win a little more. Some days I might win 20,000 dollars. You know, I’d put the money to the side and I did this everyday. And I started out young when I was doing this. ... (unintelligible) ... When I was young, if I’d win two or three-hundred dollars a day, you know the average person worked eight hours. Their check would be whatever minimum wage was. It be less than that. ... but I was using my head. I turned this into a kind of professional thing. I’d practice it. Read through books on things. And this is what I did. You know what I’m saying? I’d gamble every day.

JS: Do you wish you would have gone a different path, looking back on it?

GH: Looking back on how everything is now. Yeah, I wish I would have just went on and completed my education. And probably did something else with my life.

JS: How far along did you get in school?

GH: I went all the way to the 10th grade.

JS: What kind of career options did they have open for you growing up in the inner city of Kansas City? What kind of options at that time do you feel you had open for you besides gambling?

GH: Well, first of all I used to box. You know what I’m saying? I can box real good.

.. I ain’t got to kill nobody. Shoot nobody. I can box. I used to box. I probably could have gone somewhere with that. .... I was in sports. You know, I love sports. Be on the swimming team. You know I can do all that. The dives. Do all that type of stuff. You know there are a few sports I love. But, like I say, when I got introduced to crap games it was like easy money.

JS: How old were you when you first started playing craps?

GH: I was about 15. You know what I’m saying?

JS: And at that time were you living with your folks?

GH: Yeah. I was living with my folks all the time.

JS: Had you been living on your own at that point too?

GH: Yeah. I had been living on my own ... (unintelligible) ... but I got to winning my own money. Buying my own. You know, I had a couple little jobs.

JS: What kind of stuff did you do?

GH: Summer jobs. You know. I worked for Royal’s Baseball Stadium. Summer Jobs. I had quite a few little jobs when I was coming up. But when I got like 15 ... (unintelligible) ... shooting dice. You know, I used to win money all the time. ... (unintelligible) ... I was tricking guys out of their money. It was easy money. You know what I’m saying? ... (unintelligible) ... You can do it. You know what I mean? And I’d put a little money to the side and save it when I was younger,...There’s alot other I places I used to go to. Go to Kansas to gamble. You know. Different crap houses. You know what I’m saying? I’d ride around. It was my thing, you know.

JS: How long did you do that for then?

GH: Ever since I was 15.

JS: You said you were 29 when the shooting happened?

GH: Yeah.

JS: Wow. So for 14 years, huh?

GH: Yeah. Well, I was really almost 30 when it happened.

JS: Why would the prosecutor have wanted to seek the death penalty? To get you off the streets or whatever?

GH: Yeah. They alleging that I was doing robberies. You know they kept picking me up for robberies.... I ain’t robbing .... I was in the hospital police come to see me. I thought they come to ask about who shot me. They come to ask me about some robbery. I said .... Then when I do get out of the hospital wearing a colostomy bag ... (unintelligible) ...

JS: Do you still have to use it then?

GH: No. I ain’t got to use it. I got my intestines all sewn up and back together. But, like I said I was at my brothers house. Just trying to learn to walk again and get back on the street again. At my brother’s house and riding in my fiance’s truck. The police stopped us. I was coming from my brother’s house. They said I robbed a restaurant. I said I didn’t rob no restaurant. Come on. They said get out. I had maybe 1,800 or two thousand dollars in my pocket. I always keep money. They made me put the money in a bag and took pictures of me. Then I tried to explain I ain’t robbed. I said look at me ... I said I’m going to show you something. I raised my shirt up and I got two bags where I have to use to bathroom. I can’t run. I can’t hardly walk.

JS: And how long ago was this? How long was that before the shooting took place? GH: Well, six months before the shooting. You know, making me make bond and stuff like that. In one hour, I went to jail. The police stopped me I had about 3,000 dollars in my pocket. I called the lawyer John O’Connor. ‘Cause he told me that if I ever got in to trouble, you know, I need to call him. I called him at his house. I said they got me down town saying I robbed something. He said I’ll make your bond and be down to get you. ... to get me out.

JS: Huh, this is the same attorney John O’Connor?

GH: I done gave him 2,000 dollars. Then another time, I’m at a crap house late at night.. About two in the morning. I’d been gambling almost all day. And I end up winning a nice piece of money. And the police, as soon as I come up out of there. I guess they there waiting for me, but I’m not their main target. When I leave the crap house with about seven or 8,000 dollars. I thought that was pretty good. They let me get about four or five blocks. Pull me over for a stop. Told me to step out. So I step out of the car. They took all the money out of my pocket. They said "that’s dope money." I said "man you seen me coming out of that crap house." I just got this money. And they told me if the dog smells .. he says that dope money. And the dog really wasn’t really trying to smell the money. I’m watching. So they made the dog smell the money. They confiscate my money. John O’Connor went and got my money back.

JS: He got it back for you?

GH: Yeah. He kept it for like 90 days, but he went and got my money back. I gave him a percentage of it, but he got it back for me. But you see, this is what they was doing to me.

JS: What’s he doing nowadays?

GH: I don’t know. I don’t know. He didn’t even want to do the interview with the Channel 1 for the news out of Kansas City. But, you see what I’m saying? This ain’t no ... my case ain’t no first degree murder. I just be trippin’ over the facts about how all these other cases ... now your probably familiar with the Robert .Berdella.

JS: Oh yeah. He died of natural causes in Jefferson City (Correctional Center).

GH: Yeah. Now here the man was killing kids. Now he killed seven, eight or nine kids. Okay, they let him plead guilty to life without parole.

JS: And the death penalty was a possibility for him at that time, wasn’t it?

GH: No, no. They let him plead guilty.

JS: I mean the death penalty was on the books. It was on the books.

GH: Yes. I see what your saying, but they let him plead guilty to life without parole.

JS: Did they just not have the evidence? They had the bodies.

GH: Yeah. They had everything.

JS: It was all at his house, wasn’t it?

GH: Yeah. They had everything. Digging it out of the yard and the ice boxes like Jeffrey Dahmer. And me I’m a dead man walking.

JS: Well one of the things. He had lots of money and good representation didn’t he though?

GH: That still ain’t got nothing to do with it though. You know, you can have all the money in the world, but if you got six or seven bodies in your back yard ... you know what I’m saying? And I shoot one man. Now who is supposed to get the death sentence? Me or you?

JS: It (often) depends upon race, you know?

GH: (laughs) Yeah. Me or you supposed to get the death sentence? But, I’m just saying in other cases that I’ve been following up on. Just like in St. Louis they just brought up a guy who supposedly cut heads off. Now they let him plead guilty to life without parole. He admitted that he cut her head off ..

JS: What matters is who the prosecutor is and what kind of ambitions they have alot of times.

GH: Yeah. That goes along way too. But, I’m just saying how the system is you know. It ain’t fair.

JS: No. It ain’t.

GH: There’s a case I just got through reading that called the Blankenship

JS: Oh, yeah.

GH: I just read it a couple of days ago. There was a guy who robbed a place in St. Louis. This happened I think in ‘87.

JS: He killed several people didn’t he? Execution style.

GH: Execution style. Okay, and he supposed to be charged with first degree. They all get the second degree.,... He got life in prison. But what I’m saying is here is five people. They laid down and he reloaded the gun and shot them again. You see what I’m saying?

JS: Right.

GH: Here I shoot a man one time. It doesn’t make any sense.

JS: Right.

GH: I didn’t go there to get ...

JS: And you didn’t kill everybody else in the place.

GH: Nobody else. ... (unintelligible) ... If I’d known they wanted them guns I swear to God they could have had them. I didn’t think anything about them guns. ... What you want to kill me about a gun. Man you can have them. I don’t have no use for them.

JS: You would have had the other guy kind of ticked off at you if you would have lost his guns, but you could have lived with that. Or, try to figure something else out. You could have paid him back the money or ...

GH: But, I knew the guy would probaby never come back ‘cause I knew he was on crack. When you got people on crack ... if they can sell their house, their car they’d do anything. Just to get high. You know what I’m saying?

JS: Right.

GH: And I knew ..he was never going to come and get them back. And I just figured ... I just said well you know someone will buy these. I figured I could have make 500. You know I give 500. I going to make me 1,500 profit. I’m going to sell them for 1,000 a piece. You know what I’m saying? That’ll go quick. If somebody heard about the guns. .. (More about the shooting. Another man could have told the court who was at the Taylor house)... They didn’t asked him ...He would have shown them that Ben Brown was there. Then I come to learn Ben Brown pick the gun up. He the one got the gun. These are young guys. You know when you got young guys 14 - 15 they be wanting to be hip. He took the gun. Want to keep the gun... That’s what I come to find out that. I told my lawyer I found out the man took the gun. I need somebody to get him.

JS: Yeah. And you said he testified 2915?

GH: 2915.

JS: But now what you’re saying is all he spoke about was other crimes. The attorney didn’t asked him ... No, he testified in 2915 that he was there and saw ...

GH: He seen the guy ... after me shooting he seen the gun. He seen the guy reaching.

JS: Reach for something? But he didn’t say he saw a gun though?

GH: ..He said he saw reaching. But, after I shot him there was a gun on the floor ‘cause I left right out of the house....

JS: Did you get ... somebody brought in the automatic guns, eh? Because you had them with you ... didn’t you?

GH: I ain’t never received the guns. I ain’t never received the guns still to this day. I ain’t never seen them guns. I ain’t never seen them guns.

JS: Oh. No kidding?

GH: I ain’t never got the guns. They got them guns.

JS: Well, because that’s what it seemed like from this one report. Well from this report it seems like the guy (Michael Taylor) threw the guns on the porch.

GH: Ain’t nobody threw no guns no where. I ain’t never got no guns. I ain’t never seen them guns.

GH: A lot of people would help you with anything concerning this case. In order to prove that I’m innocent of first degree murder.

JS: Had O’Connor dealt with first degree murder cases before?

GH: Yeah. He was a prosecutor.

JS: Oh! He was a prosecutor?

GH: Yeah, he’s a prosecutor! He did know about this. ..He was very familiar with all this. You know what I’m saying? And the lawyer that prosecuted me was his boss. You know, just imagine I teach you law, you know I can out beat you in the law.

JS: Right. So, O’Connor taught the prosecuting attorney? Or, who was the prosecuting attorney?

GH: Pat Peters.,... And Jeff Bush. He was a prosecutor too. They had three prosecutors against me.

JS: Who was the other one? You said a third one?

GH: I don’t remember his name off the top, but I got it all in my things. Anything you need to know that you can investigate real quick I appreciate to the bottom of my heart Man. Because, like I said and all them people can provide this information. .... for the Governor, the public receiver. If the courts can get me a stay so I can get this stuff heard again. ‘Cause like I say Man, there’s alot of things that aren’t honest.... I’m just saying if the jury would have heard that testimony it would have been have been helpful to me. I find that he took that gun. I think my lawyer should be on top of that. But he took that man’s gun.

JS: Yeah. I tried to call Gardiner a couple of days ago, and then he called me back yesterday, but I missed him. So, I’m going to give him a holler back tommorrow.

GH: Yeah. I think he should have some good information ‘cause I talked to him the other day. He went to talk to the girl (Willoughby's girlfriend, Kendera).. Riemmer ... you know,.... I ain’t never met her. I don’t know her, but the way my people talking she can’t live with me on her conscience.

JS: I want to say at the outset that we’re going to do the best we can and raise as much heck as we can and try to get information out.

GH: If we can get this stuff out right Man, we can show them that my case is self defense. You know, I shot a man one time ... (unintelligible) ... I had no intentions of shooting to kill this man. I ain’t no killer. I’m being honest with you. Like I said, I did wrong in my life but I served time for it, but I’ve never been a killer,... You know, I wish I would have left town to be truthful. But, like I said you know this is somehting ... it just happened.

JS: Sure. Is there anything else? One thing I got to say is that I want you to know that realistically (there may be little chance of intervention by),...the governor.....We’re going to do everything we can. And I’ll try to work as hard as I can and get information out. And try to get people rallied to your cause.

JS: How you holding up there yourself?

GH: I’m doing a’right. I’m doing a’right. You know, like I said I have faith. You know, if everything turn right.,.... Anybody who read my transcript you can see. All these people lying. ... I don’t have a damn witness come on my behalf. Not one witness, and they seeking the death penalty. Why not call the witnesses?

JS: Yeah. I’d say it’s pretty shoddy if these guys have this experience. Has anyone tried to call O’Connor as well? Oh, you said one TV station tried to.

GH: Yeah. He denied the talk. He don’t want to talk. He been dodging it or something. You know what I’m saying.

JS: And he represented you several times before?

GH: Yeah. Several times. Several times. You know what I’m saying. He just took my money. He knew what he was doing. He sent me to death row. You know, he helped the prosecutor send me to death row,... They (police) got a couple of statements that can help me. They got one of them guys that heard me and him (Willoughby) arguing. And then said "Mike told them to go get the guns" or whatever or something. I just can’t recall,... They’s going to take my life ‘cause I shot a man in self defense. It’s not about the guy I shot. It’s about things they allege I’m supposed to have did in the past. ...

JS: Yeah. Or, things you were supposedly going to do in the future. Supposedly.

GH: Yeah. This is what they going to do to me.

JS: Is there anything else that you’d like to talk about or would you like to get going? Or, how you are feeling?

GH: Well, that’s basically it. I’d just like you to get on top of it if you can. You know, I miss the library. That’s where I really want to go. The library. I can’t go there now. Just because I have some things I’m working on.

JS: Had you quit school at the 10th grade? Have you ended up doing some education for yourself in prison?

GH: Well, you know I got into it when I was younger. They’d make you go to school for a while, but ... (unintelligible) ... I figure if I can get what I want now that’s where I’m going. Now I’m completely going back to school and try to get my G.E.D...

JS: You never got it while you were in prison?

GH: No. I never got it. I just, you know ... If they bless me here that’s where I’m going. I’m going to get the G.E.D. and everything else. It’s all about school and work. ... (unintelligible) ... I’m just going to do everything. I’m going to do it the right way, you know. Gambling and all that, I’m through with it. Everything.

JS: How old are you right now?

GH: Yeah, I’m 41 now. You know it ain’t too late to do something. But, like I say, I’d be blessed if something (were done by the governor to spare my life) ... I’m just going to turn it all the way around. School, and I’m thinking if I study it like I’d studied law I can get the G.E.D. ... (unintelligible) ... I could probably study like six months and get it. And hopefully I can get into a little trade or something. You know I’d like to be a counselor or something. I think I could be a good adviser in that part. You know, helping young people ... you know what I’m saying? Letting them know what I’ve been through... I might turn somebody else’s life around. ... (unintelligible) ... I know that I got a tell a person what I’ve been through for the last 10 years. Especially being on death row. I put a shock on them that will change their life. Death might change their life around. Then they’ll look at it differently. You know I believe I can be an influence ...

JS: Have you had a chance to do any of that stuff here?

GH: No. You know, there’s a few young guys I be trying to talk to and tell them certain things. You know, I be saying certain things. I’ll be trying to encourage them to go to the library or something. You know, you need to learn certain things about your case if you want to try to go on, but those are the ones that (play basketball or some other games all day long)... I’m not going to press you about the library. If that’s what you want to do, that’s your life. But I’m trying to work on my life. You know they trying to execute me and I don’t really have (time to waste)... I don’t really socialize with too many people here. You know what I’m saying. If you don’t talk about law I don’t want to talk to you. That’s how I look at it.

JS: Well if Carnahan made a trip down here, what would you say?

GH: I would ask him to really investigate my case. You know what I’m saying? I mean seriously look at my case. Get someone to investigate my case. ‘Cause I didn’t go there to shoot that man. I got enough evidence to prove that I did not go there to do it. They know that. You know what I’m saying? You know I’m not no killer. I didn’t go there to shoot that man. If he was just going to rob me or if he would have shot me, I don’t believe he would be sitting on death row ...

(END OF AUDIO TAPE)

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