my wikipedia motto :
if you have anything of quality
what upsets them on wikipedia
sons of the moms, ignorant stupid
spent an hour or so in a editing fight
the line objected to
the springwater center is a place of great beauty with sparkling
streams
and green leafy trees that just blow through the soul...........
they just cannot stand the notion they have an infantile reading age
and anything poetic just buzzes their tiny brains out
i should call it quits, it's not worth the effort, if not this moron then another,
what does it matter to me if she is misrepresented
wikipedia is very dynamic and you can't beat a crowd. especially a crowd of mental retardee's
update july 2010:
i have come to a different view of wikipedia, all the anguish comes if you view the entries as persistent, but in fact they are non - persistent
there
are
various issues of
the
crowd
dragging
the
standard
down
and
patrols
by
various
thought
police
entries are a communal property and you don't want to end up making an article too much of your own. this also ties in with the notion that the articles and their content are intrinsically mutative !
this
can
extend
to
the
entry itself
disappearing !
you are basically making agreements with other contributors as to what of your input is left and what is challenged, since they won't come to your talk page you have to go to theirs to make contact and establish a rapport if possible
however there is a persistent moron who continually defaces the toni packer entry calling himself mindmeal
he is well on autistic spectrum and has the overboundarized mindset that goes with drug use, and shows the great weakness of wikipedia with this sort of contentious entry in that such persistence controls the entry, which actually in the end i figured was to my benefit as i have this page up on the web, it's very good and why should it be up twice?
_______________________
it only takes one unreasonable persistent person to destroy an entry and that unfortunately is what has happened with this wikipedia page
you can't do anything short of getting him banned and whats the point?
too much effort and the desired outcome is unlikely
there used to be more spoilers, but they have gone and he is young and will be around for quite a while
he's not unintelligent which is the most dangerous type of spoiler, suicidal, murderous and naturally sacrificial, though not deliberately of himself tho it happens
_______________________
stupidity is quite an active process and requires some degree of intelligence it is so thorough about removing what would defeat it
the tyranny of the talentless
________________________
mindmeal replied to the above paragraph saying:
Hi again Osip, glad to see you're still at it. If you think my decision to revert to the earlier version was incorrect, I welcome an independent review again by an administrator. This gets pretty old really
i am in a happier space over the whole business and my reply was
lol, mindmeal re your edit comment, you win, what i have learnt is that being thwarted is usually in my longer term favour, i have my own resources, what am i doing promoting toni packer?
i have seen it so many times, people pilfer one or two ideas of mine then totally distort what is said but use it to garner the attention of others, others just want to shoot me
as i say you are doing me a favour, like one of the demon dogs in ghostbusters that guard the entrance to the spiritual world you are keeping me safe
it's odd, visiting springwater all those years ago and what i really took that was useful was that it's not safe to tell people what they don't want to hear, there really was an attempt on her life which you removed from the entry
and recently a much better understanding and sympathy of the problems of disjunction she faced at rochester and still faces at the springwater center, just head and shoulders intellectually above those around her and really she is cognitively dissonant in her way of thinking compared to theirs
she took the road of survival and made necessary compromises and i do that too now
interestingly i am more sympathetic to your obsession with jazz now having come across some very good clips of nat king cole and eartha kitt (who is really autistic btw)
nat cole and eartha kitt in the careless love video
is really one of the best things ever done
keep up the good work!
_______________________
why bother with apologetics when the beginning middle and end of time are spread out before one in an endless vista
why do so few see and so many not ?
and the many would crush the see-ers and rejoice in the crushing
sucking the blood as it oozes from the press
note: apologetics is the defense of not really defendable criticisms of a religion
_______________________
to mindmeal
if there's one thing
i really
loathe
it's all these single people
who will never have any kids
and
get things so wrong
and will spend their lives
obstructing
those
with any understanding
your life is meaningless
in
terms
of conventional values
and all
you can
do is
spoil
things
the
of
the
apologists
defeated?
i
think
not
suckering
real
life
instead
i wrote the poem below after a stoush with some schizophrenics
on the wikipedia entry historicity of jesus (april 2010)
apologists
controlling
some
of
the
religious
topics
is
like
a
major
issue
with
wikipedia
the old toni packer wikipedia entry is as follows
( mirrored on several sites on the web unbeknownst to me which is a gratifying indication of the quality of the writing, and toni of course, as it is about her! )
toni packer is the pre-eminent exponent of a semi or nonreligious, semi-philosphical approach exemplified by jiddu krishnamurti and ug krishnamurti, and in some measure zen buddhism and advaita vendanta
she was born in 1927 in germany to a german father and jewish mother. her status as half jewish in germany during the war years had a profound impact on her outlook
what her eventual fate might have been is hard to say as she and other members of her family were on the death list
it was only through the intervention of a colleague of her father's with the gestapo that a respite was granted
the family moved to switzerland after the war where she met kyle packer, an american exchange student whom she later married and moved to america with. kyle passed away several years ago
they have an adopted son and several grandchildren
a story she tells of her father's love of scenery is a view when driving he would describe as summum bonum
she is a former zen teacher who helped found the springwater center for meditative inquiry and retreats in springwater, new york and occupied the senior administrative position there
prior to this endeavor, she studied and taught at rochester zen center and also was a student of philip kapleau for 13 years
toni had departed from rochester zen center amid disillusionment with the dogma, methodology and ritual
a talk by toni on her zen experience
there has been an attempt on her life, which may have contributed to her avoidance of publicity
springwater center is not a buddhist meditation center, but calls itself non denominational, and eschews notions of practice
meditative inquiry is a contextless inquiry into the nature of reality and unsettling to normative human intelligence and it's dependencies on social referencing
toni packer is constantly misunderstood or misrepresented by people in buddhism, she eschews any notion of technique and she is emphatically NOT a buddhist
her style springs from theosophy as well as zen and unfortunately soto zen has had a malign influence that is somewhat disguised in the soto/hakuin hybrid lineage that was taught at the rochester zen center, however exposure to the unadultered soto is disillusioning
theosophy was influential in pre-war germany and ironically, or not so ironically, some of the nazi doctrine was formulated from it
toni would be exposed to it in her formative years so jiddu and ug krishnamurti are more her native language
the zen style sitting meditation at the center is entirely voluntary, as is attendance at the talks during retreats
she does however appear to have a view of herself as having some fundamental shift of perspective into ‘nonbeing’ through meditation, and may still have the conventional zen view of seated meditation for this purpose
another story she tells is of looking into the blue eyes of a baby in a pram as a child and wondering what on earth that was
because springwater carried a lot of personnel from the rochester zen center, there is quite a bit of accommodation to people who really seem unable to break entirely with the zen way of thinking. Her own views are different and not so constrained.
the springwater center is vegetarian which is a carry over from the rochester zen center, though there do seem to have been some exceptions to that rule. She is not personally a vegetarian
her talks have an intensely visual lyric character with naturalistic imagery from the center and it's surrounds
they convey a sense of boundarylessness,
the springwater center is a place of great beauty with sparkling streams and green leafy trees that just blow through the soul...........
______________________________
my comments from the wikipedia discussion page:
in the end i figured toni packer like zen is empty
what is the point of building some-one else up as a surrogate for ones own experience?
let the likes of you (whoever u are) and mindmeal meander about this entry forever :o)
somewhile back it became quite obvious that this sort of entry is not something that wikipedia does well, theres always some new schizophrenic ready to pop out and defecate all over the entry
however i valued the entry which was mostly my contribution at that point and put it on my web page were it will last my lifetime at least
at some point mindmeal will understand the issues of terminal over-volunteerism, but another schizophrenic will step into the breach or maybe the memory of toni packer will just fall away with time
one of toni packers issues is that she is accommodating an awful lot of nonsense for what is essentially a volunteer activity which is a weakness that runs right through springwater that other centers with their need for income are more real on, in the sense that the nonsense is promoted with an end in mind and not entirely unreal in that respect
if you compromise there is some limitation on the development and perhaps that has happened to her, though there can be other reasons for a limitation on development
_____________________
given that zen is such a spewing pit of schizophrenia she has done quite well
in the end, being a volunteer activity one asks if it has been got right and she has it right
_____________________
i think the promotion of seated meditation as a vehicle for 'whatever' does place springwater and packer still in the zen orbit, so comparisons with zen are not unfair. one can see an ipso facto transmission given to her leading disciples which is another almost unique zen characteristic.
i have often wondered about the utility of seated mediation, but now think it's just part and parcel of the zen 'package' and it's not necessary to separate it or try and seek some resolution, whatever the utility of zen was, it passes with progress and so too with seated meditation.
if it's a technique, you have to ask for what and after years of observation i would have to say it's singularly unsuccessful
_____________________
her felt affinity with mother teresa was likely a recognition of a similarity of situational disjunction
mother teresa's letters indicate a surprising atheism
one can be caught in the confines of an institution and still be free
i think john of cross and teresa of αvila were free too
there you are toni
you are with quality
_____________________
wikipedia, messageboards and the compendium/BCD are volunteer activities, the problem always is not what you do, but what you are
not doing that will reward your life better
i don't think you not volunteer, but you must be very targeted in what you do
basically i only do this stuff now to sort out my own thinking, no illusions of helping the usual human arseholes
high quality thinking is always rejected by the human mass and it's natural mediocracy
_______________________
good stuff, interesting to see that i'm not the only one noticing these things tassano
todays world has become very russian with a diffuse non-conscious stalin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
below is an composite and edited update from the wikipedia toni packer page and my posts on the hardcore zen blog (february 2009) that reflects my views on the problems with meditation generally
seated meditation, in addition to restricting lymph and blood circulation, has thrombotic potential, possibly in the watershed capillaries of the brain as per dr. andrew moulden
in fact i noticed that toni packer and zen teachers hardly ever sit which points to some cognizance of these issues within the institutions, especially in the aged
'kinhin' or the walking break between the intervals of sitting is to provide circulation, though how successful this is, is hard to say.
packer views seated meditation as a core activity, and the center hosts silent meditation retreats more or less on a monthly basis throughout the year.
this meditation cannot be unambiguously labeled zen, and is almost completely stripped of ceremonious ritual.
it does correspond to the japanese zen shikantaza (koanless) practice however, and this makes it hard to reconcile packers claim that her work is without any ties to japanese traditions. (imo packers approach is tied deeply to the zen soto tradition)
it is an open question as to wether meditation rewires the brain to amplify the connectivity and activity of the default circuitry of the brain inducing a schizophrenic like condition
well it's not an open question, i think meditation intensifies and creates schizophrenia
solitude doesn't, but it won't unwind a nut (as per the una bomber who didn't read widely enough or he would have realised the world was always a disaster)
with a few exceptions, all the zen teachers i have seen were/are just plain nuts, surprisingly the kwan um zen school seems to have a few sane teachers
______________________
Altered brain activity in schizophrenia may cause exaggerated focus on self
MIT study links schizophrenia to key 'default mode' brain system
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (january 2009)
Schizophrenia may blur the boundary between internal and external realities by overactivating a brain system that is involved in self-reflection, and thus causing an exaggerated focus on self, a new MIT and Harvard brain imaging study has found.
The traditional view of schizophrenia is that the disturbed thoughts, perceptions and emotions that characterize the disease are caused by disconnections among the brain regions that control these different functions.
But this study, appearing Jan. 19 in the advance online issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that schizophrenia also involves an excess of connectivity between the so-called default brain regions, which are involved in self-reflection and become active when we are thinking about nothing in particular, or thinking about ourselves.
" People normally suppress this default system when they perform challenging tasks, but we found that patients with schizophrenia don't do this " said John D. Gabrieli
" We think this could help to explain the cognitive and psychological symptoms of schizophrenia. "
Gabrieli added that he hopes the research might lead to ways of predicting or monitoring individual patients' response to treatments for this mental illness, which occurs in about 1 percent of the population.
Schizophrenia has a strong genetic component, and first-degree relatives of patients (who share half their genes) are 10 times more likely to develop the disease than the general population. The identities of these genes and how they affect the brain are largely unknown.
The researchers thus studied three carefully matched groups of 13 subjects each: schizophrenia patients, nonpsychotic first-degree relatives of patients and healthy controls. They selected patients who were recently diagnosed, so that differences in prior treatment or psychotic episodes would not bias the results.
The subjects were scanned by functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) while resting and while performing easy or hard memory tasks
The behavioral and clinical testing were performed by Larry J. Seidman and colleagues at Harvard Medical School, and the imaging data were analyzed by first author Susan Whitfield-Gabrieli, a research scientist at the MIT Martinos Imaging Center at the McGovern Institute.
The researchers were especially interested in the default system, a network of brain regions whose activity is suppressed when people perform demanding mental tasks. This network includes the medial prefrontal cortex and the posterior cingulate cortex, regions that are associated with self-reflection and autobiographical memories and which become connected into a synchronously active network when the mind is allowed to wander.
Whitfield-Gabrieli found that in the schizophrenia patients, the default system was both hyperactive and hyperconnected during rest, and it remained so as they performed the memory tasks. In other words, the patients were less able than healthy control subjects to suppress the activity of this network during the task. Interestingly, the less the suppression and the greater the connectivity, the worse they performed on the hard memory task, and the more severe their clinical symptoms.
"We think this may reflect an inability of people with schizophrenia to direct mental resources away from internal thoughts and feelings and toward the external world in order to perform difficult tasks," Whitfield-Gabrieli explained.
The hyperactive default system could also help to explain hallucinations and paranoia by making neutral external stimuli seem inappropriately self-relevant. For instance, if brain regions whose activity normally signifies self-focus are active while listening to a voice on television, the person may perceive that the voice is speaking directly to them.
The default system is also overactive, though to a lesser extent, in first-degree relatives of schizophrenia patients who did not themselves have the disease
This suggests that overactivation of the default system may be linked to the genetic cause of the disease rather than it's consequences
The default system is a hot topic in brain imaging, according to John Gabrieli, partly because it is easy to measure and because it is affected in different ways by different disorders.
_______________________________________
diabetes affects vascularization of the brain adversely
Salk study links diabetes and Alzheimer's disease
LA JOLLA, CA Diabetic individuals have a significantly higher risk
of developing Alzheimer's disease but the molecular connection
between the two remains unexplained. Now, researchers at the Salk
Institute for Biological Studies identified the probable molecular
basis for the diabetes Alzheimer's interaction.
In a study published in the current online issue of Neurobiology of
Aging, investigators led by David R. Schubert, Ph.D., professor in
the Cellular Neurobiology Laboratory, report that the blood vessels
in the brain of young diabetic mice are damaged by the interaction of
elevated blood glucose levels characteristic of diabetes and low
levels of beta amyloid, a peptide that clumps to form the senile
plaques that riddle the brains of Alzheimer's patients. (low iodine! ed.)
Although the damage took place long before the first plaques
appeared, the mice suffered from significant memory loss and an
increase in inflammation in the brain. "Although the toxic beta
amyloid peptide was first isolated from the brain blood vessels of
Alzheimer's patients, the contribution of pathological changes in
brain vascular tissue to the disease has not been well studied," says
Dave R. Schubert, Ph.D., professor and head of the Cellular
Neurobiology Laboratory. "Our data clearly describe a biochemical
mechanism to explain the epidemiology, and identify targets for drug development."
Alzheimer's and diabetes are two diseases that are increasing at an
alarming rate within the U.S. population. Alzheimer's affects one in
10 Americans over 65 years of age and nearly 50 percent of those over
85 years old. Similarly, 7 percent or approximately 20 million
Americans have diabetes, with the vast majority of these individuals being over 60.
Recent epidemiological studies have shown that diabetic patients have
a 30 to 65 percent higher risk of developing Alzheimer's disease
compared to non-diabetic individuals. The increased risk applies to
both type 1 and type 2 diabetes, which share hyperglycemia as a common pathogenic factor.
"Many studies have focused on altered insulin signaling in the brain
as a possible mechanism for the association between Alzheimer's
disease and diabetes but researchers paid much less attention to the
direct affects of increased blood glucose levels on brain function
and the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's," explains lead author Joseph R.
Burdo, Ph.D., a former postdoctoral researchers in Schubert's lab and
now an assistant professor at Bridgewater State College in Bridgewater, Massachusetts.
To get at the bottom of the question why diabetes predisposes people
to Alzheimer's disease as they age, the Salk researchers Schubert,
Burdo and Qi Chen, in collaboration with diabetes expert Nigel
Calcutt, a professor in UCSD's Department of Pathology, induced
diabetes in young mice, whose genetic background predisposes them to
acquire the symptoms of Alzheimer's with old age.
These mice suffered damage to blood vessels well before any overt
signs of Alzheimer's disease such as nerve cell death or the
acquisition of amyloid deposits, the hallmark of the disease, could
be detected in their brains. Further experiments revealed that the
vascular damage was due to the overproduction of free radicals,
resulting in oxidative damage to the cells lining the brain's blood vessels.
"While all people have a low level of amyloid circulating in their
blood, in diabetics there may be a synergistic toxicity between the
amyloid and high level of blood glucose that is leading to the
problems with proper blood vessel formation," says Burdo.
An earlier study by Schubert and his team has revealed that the
exposure of cells to amyloid causes free radical production prompting
a clinical trial investigating whether the antioxidant and free
radical scavenger vitamin E would be beneficial for the treatment of Alzheimer's disease.
While this initial trial was only marginally successful, ongoing work
in Schubert's lab centers on a new family of drugs that has shown
promise for preventing Alzheimer's disease and perhaps the vascular
damage associated with diabetes.
_______________________________________
Hanif Kureishi talks to the BBC
Would you describe yourself as religious?
I've always been fascinated by religion. For me it's the deepest form of human expression, along with culture.
God is mankind's finest creation. Has there been a better idea than that of God?
Do you believe in God, and if so, what sort of god?
I believe in the need to understand what the idea of God, or gods, do for us.
What do you think happens after you die?
You dissolve into the minds of others, and you haunt them until they are tired of you, and even after.
Does it change your view of someone when you find out that they are religious and how?
You have to think about whether they are merely following the values of those around them, or whether they are delusional psychotics!
Is religion a good thing?
That's an impossible question.
Most people in most societies during human history have lived in what could be described as 'religious' communities.
Religions, like novels and myths, describe the world and help make it safer.
What impact has religion had on your life?
It's made me think about the important questions: sexuality, childhood, authority, death, power.
Have you ever had a religious experience and can you describe it?
I was thrown out of the East London mosque for being a dissident writer and critic of radical Islam.
What is your favourite religious song?
Sympathy for the Devil, by the Rolling Stones.
What religious leader, if any, most inspires you?
Most religious leaders are ignorant fools.
It's a shame so few of them are intelligent or even interesting.
It makes you wonder why the dullest people hang around religions. Gives the whole thing a bad name.
What is your favourite religious book?
The most interesting work about the use of religion as a form of organisation of the resentful and envious is Nietzsche's On The Genealogy of Morals
_______________________________________
the february 2004 day 6 retreat talk by toni is interesting
i wrote the following after listening to it :
i actually
think
the
process
of
age
is
very
disillusioning
about
life
the
way
one
collapses
into
incapacity
more poems themed on toni packer and springwater
springwater
toni
packer
was
herself
or
was
she ?
no
point
in
being
a
clone
of
a
clone
springwater
somewhat
a
clone
of
zen
buddhist culture
and
krishnamurti
it
was
really
weird
to
travel
10,000
miles
from
auckland
to
springwater
and
pull
back
a
red
curtain
to
see
the
meditation
sitting
bell (inkin)
on
a
cushion
the
same
as
with
the
auckland
zen
society
sits
in
the
leys
institute
what
i
find
a
bit
peculiar
the
way
interest
in
toni
packer
has
dropped
off
because
she
is
now
bed - ridden
is
that
the
interest
must
have
always
been
in
her
and
not
inquiry
per
se
imo
toni
packer
is
a
bit
of
an
illusion
she's
the
real
thing
the
illusion
is
that
she
is
part
of
the
spiritual
circuit !
she
may
have
fallen
victim
to
partly
believing
this
illusion
herself
perhaps
not
but
those
around
her
yes
and
no
i
think
you
need
to
be
entirely
clear
of
any
such
illusion
i'm
bending
over backwards
do
others
bend
so ?
no
they
go
forwards
to
kill
though
when
they
can
i
suppose
life
bends
us
over
backwards
anyway
to
survive
maybe
not
two teachers strongly influenced by toni packer are joko beck and the similarly named toni varner aka gangaji
the almost imitative style of gangaji can be seen in her videos
perhaps gangaji can be regarded as toni packer's true dharma heir ?
byron katie and eckhart tolle also seem influenced by her though i am understanding that krishnamutri and advaita also helped determine toni packer's approach
however toni packer still stands alone as the only one who truely sees imo
however i am appreciating toni varner and byron katie as having a few clues
however
as
heraclitis
puts
it
If there were no sun, as far as depended on the other stars it would be night
my last edit of the toni packer wikipedia entry was on july 27th 2010,
i have switched entirely across to only maintaining this page, wikipedia and it's trolls/moderators are too much grief!
my comment after removing the talk link
quality content is targeted by trolls so better to remove
than be
involved in a edit war
below is my reply to a complaint of a personal attack in the discussion section of the wikipedia chelation therapy article
i really get annoyed when people like you jump in without doing any in depth reading on what you commenting on and your supreme self-confidence about being right when you are not. for instance the quackwatch page is also self published and really quite quirky when you have some familarity with it.
the bottom line is that wikipedia enforces an attitudinal bias called medical political correctness which is why quackwatch is acceptable to most wikipedia editors.
also this bias does not permit the article to cover the actual real practice of chelation therapy which a true encyclopedic article on the subject would do
do
a
wikipedia
on
pornography
actresses
then look at the way the chelation therapy
article
is
curtailed
i
suppose
you
still
can't
see
what
i
am
saying
any
wonder
i
use
the
term
where
should
the
overall
of
am doing
outlook
put
demons
pornographic
nightmare
have
the
message
admins'
to
as
a
deep
death
the
the
reply
soyabean
interesting
sitting
child
or
collection
o
)
to
write
theories
i
it
a
also
flux
like
a
so
a
chronic
a
intellectual
limitation ?
no
reply
just
run
away
you
see
what
they
are
made
of
don't
you ?
wikipedia
is
the
enshrinement
of
mediocracy !
i
think
to
start
with
was
more
successful
than
it
might
be
i
think
the
thing
about
wikipedia
is
it
is
volunteer
if
you
go
too
far
into
volunteer
you
end
up
in
trouble
if
you
don't
go
deeply
enough
you
end
up
with
some
illusions
an
encyclopedia
article
is
supposed
to
be
readable
informative
and
true
what's
true
is
not
easy
to
see
it
have
a
discussion
of
options
wikipedia
editors
are
toads
wikipedia
is
a
kafkaesque
well i am not interesting fighting attitudinal bias so if this link is going back it will have to be put up by someone else ! (reply to beetstra on my talk page - he threatened to block me AGAIN !)
however it does seem to fit WP/EL which states
Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks), or other reasons.
i did give up on the toni packer entry a while back and made a mistake re-entering the fray so to speak because if it's not you and WLU, it's the buddhists who try to change the article so it looks good to them
toni packer left zen buddhism and there's quite a bit of friction there which is why that talk link was particularly relevant as she discusses her zen experience
i know toni packer personally and have years of experience in this area but obviously that counts for nothing to young men like yourself and wlu who inadvertently or otherwise excise of the best parts of an article
however i always thought that link would be removed , not by you and wlu but by the various buddhist apologists that descend on the page occasionally since it is a really good talk and they need to remove anything that makes toni packer look good !
do yourself a favour and listen to it for the entire length boring tho it may seem, the perspective is life enlarging
i
take
an
look
and
pornographic actresses
are
acceptable
and
years
experience
in certain areas is not
so
i
take
my
leave from
editing
both you and WLU are strongly autistically traited as i am, life has some hard lessons and one is to be willing to be look at were we are wrong
i
that but i'm not wrong
and my experience is that consensus and group opinions are in the ultimate analysis
always
wrong
now there, i have taken quite a bit of time to tell you something useful, don't rubbish it, just sit back and think a bit and try to put the pieces in place which i am afraid is the work of a lifetime
i
always
imagine
people
are
halfway
reasonable
but
they
never
are
there
is
more
to
life
than
your
rigid
atheist
medical
political
correctness
yes !
when
people
have
control
over
you
they
behave
like
crucifying
little
shits
which
when
you
think
about
it
is
logical
they
always
their
needs
first
they
are
just
little
little
bastards
these
young
wikipedia
editors !
wikipedia
is
over
prim
and
like
the
over -
prim
has
a
hole
wikipedia
is
a
it
really
helps
to
been
in
a
few
editing
fights
to
see
that
and
to
have
been
very
unfairly
squelched
by some
idiot
admin
and
then
you
will
understand
limitations
of
it !
with
irc
chat,
boards
and
wikipedia
it's
always
the
same
problem
those
who
who
seek
to
be
moderators
or
owners
are
least
able
to
act
judiciously
they
control
keep
their
own
piece
of
mind
it's
just
well
these
idiots
are
trashing
wikipedia
people
are
mentally
lazy
they
would
take
wikipedia
as
gospel
if
you
think
some-ones
working
against
you
it
often
turns
out
subtlely
they
are
working
for
you
if
you
look
closely
a
lot
of
wikipedia
entries
are
empty
that
is
devoid
of
meaningful
content
because
they
are
effectively
censored
meditation
just
makes
you
schizophrenic
in
terms
of
what
zen
calls
kensho
it's
just
a little
sparkle
whereas
what
you
want
is
falling
into
the
well
you
don't
get
that
deep
falling
unless
you
integrate
your
life
and
most
people
don't
can't
and
won't
and
live
like
dried
apples
i
am
only
writing
this
because
the
old
zen
law
seems
to
have
been
lost
and
replaced
by
something
called
meditation
where
is
the
spirit ?
vapourized
into
todays
airhead
generation
i
am
afraid
no
it's
not
just
nostalgia
it's
vaccines
goitrogens
marginal
nutrition
and
brain
in
the
wrong
way !
wikipedia
legalism
has
overtaken
what
it
is
about !
wikipedia
has
been
taken
over
by
a
group
of
attitudinally
biased
youngsters
and
young
men
with
zero
knowledge
and
100%
interference
and
the
result
is
to
wreck
it
misunderstood
and
misapplied
policy
documents
cannot
cover
10 year
shortfalls
of
specific
experience
in
a
subject !
overconfidence
and
no
self -
modesty
the
modern
disease
on august the 21st 2010 the user sandstein deleted the vast bulk of the comments and discussion on the toni packer entry in violation of a convention on wikipedia to leave the discussion alone, however this is just part of the trend to hyper-editing admins that lack subject expertise who are just killing wikipedia
my suggestion for wikipedia is to restrict admins privileges to those subjects in which they have experience and true interest and are able to act in an impartial manner and not impose the various attitudinal biases they suffer from, that is, after replacing jimmy wales who has to go !
editors
are
unpaid
employees
of
google
and
bing !
does sitting do anything useful or does it entrain or even create schizophrenia ?
if
it's
useful
what
is
the
context
if
it
entrains
schizophrenia
that's
pretty
much
evidenced
by
nuttiness
of
zen
what are the mechanisms of damage ?
and
they
are
pretty
much
same
for
spring
water
as
zen
no. 1 is probably the talks !
that's
because
it's
one
way
with
no
they
never
did
toni
any
good
either !
2ndly
the
culture
of
self
kneecapping
which
is
a
religious
essential
actually
i
don't
think
the
diet
helps
especially
the
lastly
not
enough
writing !
without
writing
you
don't
have
enough
memory !
also
not
reading
broad
enough
especially
poetry and
some
philosophy
and
historical
items
and
accounts
it's
all
there
on
the
web !
and
meditation
inducting
or
amplifying
schizophrenia
has
already
been
covered
what's
the
problem
with
talks
basically
you
have
to
listen
to
something
you
can't
dispute !
that
is
you
take
it
in
in
a
like
way
without
being
able
to
tease
out
the
flaws
which
in
the
context
of
religion
religious
like
including
springwater
are
over
whelming
i
don't
say
it's
black
and
white
i
found
toni's
the
work
of
this
moment
which
is
a
of
talks
very
useful !
a
widening
perspective
is
neverending !
or
infinite
if
you
will
:
if
only
people
were
keyed
for
process
and
not
arrival !
the
only
way
to
keep
your
sanity
on
wikipedia
is
mirror
what
you
so
it's
not
lost !
wikipedia
and
message
boards
are
counter-
intuitive
you end
up
hurt
wether
you
are
reader
or
writer
i
hope
these
homilies
have
provided
some
of
mind
to
navigate
these
treacherous
rapids !
most
of
what
write on wikipedia
is
against
the
grain
counter-intuitive
saying
something
unpalatable
you
have
to
be
very
careful
how
you
do
disguise
it
in
politically
correct
stuff
a
wolf
in
sheep's
clothing
so
to
speak !
toni
packer's
problem
of
decompression !
the
talks
and
the
retreats
and
the
interviews
then
the
talks
are
decompression
of
that
i
am
similar
on
the
net
the
question
is
being stuck
in
this
of
any
benefit ?
in
my
opinion
sitting
is
a
crowd
control
passivation
technique
and
you
got
sucked suckered
in
by
it
toni !
it's
secondary
to
various
intellectual
processes
zen
is
fucked
in
the
head !
did joan tollifson facilitate the transfer of toni-ese into neo advaita with her writing?
neo advaita especially eckhart tolle has gutted zen and has implications for springwater since it is such a good good facsimile but NOT identity ?
it takes a first class traitor to do this and that imo is joan who has some undesirable character traits, perhaps typical of people with an obvious disability, maybe they get pissed with life and people, i don't blame them and what i say must not be construed as a criticism, what occurs is life and is always teaching us something and we all have severe flaws !
neo advaita are not particularly smart except for for tolle, they could not have affected such a transfer of vocabulary and style from springwater themselves, especially those who teach in neo advaita, like religious teachers everywhere they are extraodinarily dense and rigid and beside the point !
so
how did
it
happen
well
it's
not
black
and
white
but
i
think
joan's
books
delivered the springwater style and vocabulary
in
a
palatable
way
minus
the
real
questioning
which
joan
strenuously
avoided
so
there
it
was, a four course meal delivered gratis !
springwater has been hurt by this and they obviously don't understand the net at all and i have to question their refusal to run any sort of public interactivity like a message baord, in short , it's the typical head in the sand atittude typical of zen !
i actually think the retreat paradigm is doomed too !
too
viral
a
world!
i
actually
think
toni's
health
was
damaged
by
the
constant
of
less
than
healthy
people
she
dealt
with
too
much
constant
immune
stimulation
annihilating
the
pancreatic
beta
cells !
that's
what
i
mean
about
life
it's
really
weird
what
we
build
so
carefully
rears
round
an
angry
bear
and
kills
us !
eckhart tolle is the enemy
life's
lot
simpler
if
you
understand
that !
why?
because
he's
half
baked
but
like
the
getty korous
a
fake
good
it's
hard
to
tell !
now
the
and
child
by
duccio
di
buoninsegna
is
real !
the
basic
problem
is
involvement
and
then
you
have
to
unwind
the
involvement
so
it's
better
not
to
get
involved
most
people
intuitively
understand
this
i
don't
and
have
to
learn
the
hard
way !
i
don't
have
to
go
anywhere
where
i
am
christianity
is
i
don't
have
to
go
anywhere
where
i
am
zen
is
i
don't
have
to
go
anywhere
where
i
am
springwater
is
i
think
toni
packer
has
effectively
destroyed
zen
because
she
opened
up
the
gates
to
neo-
advaita !
not
that
zen
wasn't
doomed
anyway
with
it's
crazy
system
of
teacher
student
transmission
and
absurd
training
system
but
it
would
have
been
lot
slower !
why
do
i
have
to
be
so
mad
does
any
contact
with
zen
or
similar
contaminate ?
why
do
i
have
to
be
so
mad
does
any
contact
with
zen
and
similar
contaminate ?
tolle
is
a
plagiarist
you
can
see
it
in
the
name !
meister
eckhart
indeed !
he
is
not
of
the
eye
that
sees
god
is
the
same
eye
that
sees
me
stamp !
he
never
appears
on
truely
open
forums
where
criticism
is
possible
you
notice !
quite
tho !
but
a
neo-
adviata
upstart
on
the
make
like
them
all !
what's
the
lesson
from
toni
packer ?
just
compress
and
decompress
and
bust
gut
and
your
health
suffers
go back and live at springwater
letter attached to a card sent late jan 2012 to toni packer
i am sending toni a sony px312 voice recorder and this is the message i am sending in it !
ed. it was no use to toni so i am sure wayne and susan codger can make good use of it !
i guess the reality is i will be the only one using it/them : o )
transcript from a talk given during the November 1998 retreat
at the Springwater Center by Toni Packer
Let's talk about anger. Everyone experiences it at one time or
another.
Can something be done about anger?
A retreatant reported experiencing lots of energy during sittings,
mostly generated by feeling angry about the sitting itself. Thoughts
were running about wasting her time here while there was so much work
to do at home. "What should I do with all this energy? At times I
feel like screaming! Is it all right to scream?"
We have all agreed to maintain outward silence during
retreats. Screams are disturbing. If one really feels like screaming
that's OK, but maybe one can find a ravine in the woods where it would
not impact others. But it's a good question, what to do with powerful
energy like anger. My immediate response to the questioner was,
" Let it be awareness! Awareness is energy! "
Years ago a man came to see me before applying for retreat, asking
if it would be all right to express anger during a meeting. I said it
was all right. So one day he entered the meeting room with a tense,
flushed face, asking if he could vent his anger at me right then and
there. I nodded, and quietly asked: " Have you ever looked at it
directly? " No answer came just a charged silence. We sat
wordlessly for what seemed to be an eternity, and then he burst out
laughing: " It doesn't have to be expressed! " When a
powerfully driving emotion gives way to simple awareness, it is like a
miracle. What emerged from awareness wasn't screams, but laughter and
insight.
Psychological theories about what to do with anger abound and
change with time. I do not know if anger should be expressed or
shouldn't be. The fact is that we do get angry, and it expresses
itself instantly, verbally as well as non-verbally, throughout the
body. So what is this anger? Can we go beyond the question, " What
should I do with it? " and beyond answers like, " I should
feel it in my body, or I should express it verbally, physically, or I
ought to control it "
There is plenty to feel when we're angry. It mobilizes the entire
organism, mentally and physically no single cell remains
unaffected. Storylines run wildly, keeping the agitation going. Can we
feel all these amazing physical and mental manifestations without
resistance? If resistance is there, then feel it, look at it. Don't
try to shut it down by telling yourself that it is dangerous to
experience anger, or try to convince yourself that we are wholly
justified in what we are feeling. We really don't know. Every thought,
every judgment about it intensifies confusion and agitation!
Can simple awareness shed light, create space?
Trace anger as it is happening! Why am I getting angry? What is at
the base of it? Can it be irradiated with attention? By looking at
it, questioning it, observing it in the light of the question, what
reveals itself is that we function in rigid patterns that do not want
to be interrupted. Memory structures in the brain and throughout the
body about how we are, how things ought to be, what is right and what
is wrong keep us functioning fairly smoothly, but when they are
interfered with, anger results.
These memory structures are wired into us from day one. Even an
infant, who does not yet understand the spoken word, understands
judgments conveyed by mother's and father's voice, eyes, and
touch. What brings smiles, warmth, and protection is good, is right,
is worth repeating over and over again. What brings rejection,
hardness, sadness, or pain is bad, wrong, must be avoided. So, from
early on, memory structures solidify organismically about what is
right and what is wrong to do, to be, to feel, to think, to
say. Schools, churches, and daily living together reinforce these
structures. What we want and what has given us pleasure becomes the
dominating pattern that needs to be maintained, incessantly fulfilled,
and defended against disturbance.
When what we want is interfered with or thwarted, or when somebody
transgresses what is deeply felt to be right, the energy that keeps
the system intact explodes. What they did was Wrong!!!! How dare
they! I could see something like this happening in our
grandchildren. Our little grandson was quite obedient, having learned
through punishment and reward what his parents felt to be right and
wrong, what to do and what not to do, and, above all, what not to
touch. Several years later when his little sister came toddling along,
playing with the buttons on the stereo that he had painfully learned
to leave alone, he would get furious with her, slapping her little
hands. He could not tolerate seeing her do what for him had become a
rigid pattern of no !
Anger was the result of the disturbance. And so it is with all of us. Observing someone do what
the brain has encoded as wrong triggers an eruption of energy that wants to keep the pattern intact. It feels as though we had been personally injured.
I have been wondering about this for a long time: why do we get
angry when someone else acts in a " stupid " way? What
reveals itself upon examination is that we easily feel irritated
toward somebody who " doesn't get it " like a parent or
schoolteacher getting exasperated at a child. This sort of anger isn't
questioned very much it seems justifiable. We feel righteous anger
toward those whose ways are in collision with our own. Can we question
this deeply?
I remember feeling uncomfortable at the Zen Center when we recited
the precept not to become angry. How could we make this vow, knowing
full well that we would become angry again? And then get angry about
having transgressed a vow! I also wondered about the teacher's saying
that there were appropriate, righteous angers not included in the
vow. What is anger? This was my query, tracing it to its very
foundation. Why do we get angry? Not making explanations or excuses or
accusations, but watching directly what is actually taking place. Why
do we keep on being angry, what maintains the agitated mood after the
explosion has happened?
Does it necessarily have to continue for any length of time?
We may assume that we continue being angry because of a deep
reservoir of rage established within us over time that can only be
depleted over time. But I have actually observed that physical
agitation dissipates amazingly fast if the personalized picture story
about what has happened to us is clearly seen as story, and is
understood as the culprit that keeps the anger burning. With
ever-fresh insight the brain can actually cease composing agitating
scenarios, abstaining wisely from picturing ourselves as sacrificial
victims of other peoples' stupidity or meanness. Without clear
insight, incendiary storylines keep running, fueling the anger time
and time again.
With insight we may realize that there exists a tenacious
attachment to our stories and to the resulting anger. We actually feel
good in this powerful release, even though remorse may set in when the
storyline changes: " After this they won't like me anymore! "
But, it is an ever-amazing discovery that emotions can dissipate when
the story is seen and ends in the seeing. Some physical sensations may
linger for a while, but need not become a problem. Watch the stories
and let them go ! The body has an amazing ability to establish harmony
when left alone.
You may be thinking right now ,
Aren't there situations in
which we ought to stand up for what is right, feel outrage against
exploitation or abuse? I do not know what we ought to feel,
ought to do. Establishing oughts and trying to live by them
doesn't lead to insight into what is. What does happen when we are
exploited, abused, humiliated, made fun of, or when we see it
happening to others ?
We have never learned a wise way to deal deeply with this stuff
because we are so used to either putting up with it, suffering from
it, fighting it, or exploding over it. Either we continue darkly in
our conditioned patterns, or there is an awakening of interest in what
is going on for all of us, the abuser as well as the abused. This has
nothing to do with sanctioning hurtful behavior, excusing it, or
allowing it to continue.
Can we simply behold each other as we are from moment to moment?
See ourselves, see everyone, as results of millennia old conditioned
patterns which have rigidly governed our behavior even though we do
not consciously want it to be so? Not just an intellectual
understanding of this, but direct insight into the power of our
overwhelmingly strong conditioning. Then, maybe, we can begin to
question things together and communicate with each other in a new,
intelligent, and compassionate way. Anger, with its chemical toxins,
is not conducive to clearly examining and investigating. On the
contrary, it spells confusion in the mind.
What is needed is unpolluted looking into what is happening for all
of us. Out of clear insight comes the energy to act in a clear
way. Such action is difficult for us because we are so heavily
conditioned in our patterns of reacting that we are not even cognizant
of them most of the time. But that is not an immutable state of
affairs. There can be ever-increasing awareness of how we react and
how others react to us because of our reactions to them. We are all
entangled together in chain reactions! Bring them to light! Realize
that when you talk to someone with an angry demeanor they are likely
to respond in kind, triggering further irritation in you and, then
again, you in them, and on and on.
Most of us are scared of people who are angry, shouting, attacking,
blaming. Out of fear, we respond angrily ourselves. This immediately
touches memories of our childhood, years of helplessness and utter
dependence on adults who often exploded in incomprehensible ways. Fear
of angry people makes us not want to be near them it is too upsetting,
too intimidating. So, turning it around again, can we question, while
we are angry, whether we are actually upsetting and intimidating other
people ? Maybe we don't really want to upset other people. A moment of clarity and insight brings astonishing sensitivity and care.
As a child I was very scared of my mother's anger, particularly
when it was vented against my brother or the cook or nanny. I was
deeply attached to all of them. My brother was often sullen, moody,
obstinate, and did poorly in his schoolwork. I felt excruciating pain
every time he was scolded, punished, or humiliated. Later, in my
teens, I told my mother that I had been afraid of her anger all my
life. She was visibly shocked. She didn't realize at all that I could
have felt that way. It obviously did not fit the image she had of
herself.
Memories now arise of times when I was not afraid of mother. We
would sometimes go together into town to do shopping. We often walked
quite a distance, and she would hold my hand, and it was such a
wonderfully happy feeling. Sometimes I would arrange my small hand in
hers in a special way, and she would go along with it. One time we
were walking through a department store, passing through many narrow
isles with merchandise tables left and right, and I felt my mother's
deep sadness, looking for something she couldn't find.
Just to complete that story, we visited my parents in Switzerland
after I was married. One day I saw my mother in the dining room alone,
looking toward me, and suddenly there was just this beautiful woman
standing there without any images. So much love in this moment without
images. No feeling that I had to be anything she may have thought of
me. It was completely natural. From that moment on, our relationship
changed.
So, can we have infinite patience with our own anger and the anger
of others? Can our habitual reactions for or against someone be
replaced with a wondering awareness that does not know? Can we try to
understand each other on the deepest level, without images? We are the
only laboratories for unfolding this understanding anger wells up in
all of us. Why? Not that it shouldn't, but just WHY ?
Let it reveal itself fully in awareness beyond limitation.
I guess now toni packer has died I can say it, but she said the enlightenment stories in the three pillars of zen were made up by philip kapleau !