discussion of moles and removal methods

simoncini iodine method

moles are mutagenic melanocytes held in suspended animation

q&a about sun and vitamin d lamps

hydrogen peroxide on liver spots


the following is purely a discussion of what i and a friend might do or have done, more of a blog really and not a recommendation at all!

  you should see a dermatologist if you suspect a mole needs assessement and/or treatment ! 

removing moles can go wrong, you can end up with more, the mole in a more dangerous condition or cancerous, and the skin around and where the mole was will become scarred and discoloured to some degree or other, though i have found that apart from freezing which leaves a depigmented white spot, or surgery which leaves a scar, other treatments eventually blend in very well into the skin !

freezing moles may kill nerves in the freezing zone

 i have always found it important to identify the type of mole as much as possible  and wether its likely to be a danger, you can do this to a surprising extent researching on the net.

one of my basic approaches is defeating moles before they become large or invasive enough to require reconstructive surgery, for example  on the  nose  !

of course the nose is mostly cartilage !


thickish basal cell carcinoma is too deep to be effectively frozen through the carcinoma and ideally is best treated by surgery followed immediately by freezing which hopefully is the best of both worlds

Basal cell carcinoma-treatment with cryosurgery  study


Q. I have a question just for the purpose of understanding skin issues. I had a black comedone, very large; many times larger than pictures I have seen, that broke from underneath my skin and fell out. It was very black, very hard and irregular shaped, about the size of a bird seed. Now, 10 years later, I have a tiny black speck where the comedone broke through. Is this typical and confirmation that I indeed had a common comedone?

A. Sometimes the skin will form pockets that collect dead cells and debris. A small "pocket" in the skin is called a comedone (blackhead). A larger "pocket" is called a "dilated pore of Winer". When there is a large pocket under the skin with substance and debris, this is called a cyst. These growths can't hurt you. If you elect to do so, the dilated pore of Winer and cysts can be surgically removed


Epidermoid and Pilar Cysts (Sebaceous Cysts):

A cyst is a benign growth that forms when an inner lining or sac fills with a cheesy material. Epidermoid cysts have a central opening from which a rancid material can be expressed.”

they are essentially a walled off biofilm infection !

one  comment  i have read contra-indicates pressing out the interior material if surgical removal of the cyst is proposed !

lamisil can be a help with reducing the cyst size which indicates a strong fungal biofilm component

surgery to remove cysts is often the best course as they can be surprisingly deep

healing of cysts surgically removed from the upper back and back require attention to the wound as the thick skin is difficult to heal !

occasional wiping the wound with 35% hydrogen peroxide i found helpful for this with a friend !

using hydrogen peroxide continuously is problematic since it is always creating tissue destruction as part of it's action so the wound doesn't heal until after the use of the hydrogen peroxide is discontinued !

i have successsfully used 35% hydrogen peroxide on an acne/fordyce type cyst on the tip of my nose in conjunction with lamisil, it even formed a little eschar which makes me think that there was some semi-cancerous involvement which is to be expected given the amount of sun exposure i have had on the nose !


the problem with melanoma is melanin cells are preloaded with the genes that give the ability to metastasize from the role of melanin in embryological dispersal

so you have to be very careful of inducing extra mutations that might switch this ability on, especially if there is impaired autophagocytosis or melanocyte senescence mechanisms

metastasis is not as black and white as medicine makes out with leakage occuring from very early stage non metastasizing cancers and i actually think most immune systems kill melanoma cells when they metastasize and its immune compromised people who get metastasis, don't quote me though ;o)

"The initial mutation of the B-Raf gene helps to create moles, but high levels of B-Raf activity due to the mutation prevents the cells from becoming a melanoma. It is only when the Akt3 protein is present in those cells and communicates with B-Raf that it lowers its activity, thereby creating favorable conditions within the mole for cells to multiply, and allow them to turn into a melanoma."  study


in a new york university  study, dr. polsky and his colleagues used a computerized imaging system to measure the lesions in a large database of melanoma cases.

they evaluated the lesions of 1,323 patients undergoing biopsies of 1,657 suspicious pigmented lesions of which 8.3% were diagnosed as melanoma. 48.5% of the 1,657 lesions were larger than 6 millimeters in diameter.

in situ melanomas, which are less dangerous because they remain in the skins outer layers, were diagnosed in 2.6 % percent of lesions 6 millimeters or smaller in diameter and in 7.7% percent of lesions larger than 6 millimeters.

invasive melanoma, which has penetrated deeper into the skin and is most life threatening, was diagnosed in only 1.5% percent of lesions that were 6 millimeters or smaller in diameter. By contrast, the invasive type was diagnosed in 5.1% percent of lesions larger than 6 millimeters.

[in suspicious lesions larger than 6mm, the sum of in situ and invasive melanomas is 12.8% and in lesions smaller than 6mm the sum of in situ and invasive melanomas is 4.1%]

"lesions that are smaller than 6 millimeters are unlikely to be melanoma. new and changing lesions are the most concerning, and lesions that are multiple colors are especially suspicious," says dr. polsky.


"The research found no deaths recorded from basal cell carcinoma (BCC), one of the most common non-melanoma skin cancers or solar keratosis. Most deaths were associated with squamous cell carcinoma and Merkel cell carcinoma."

"70 percent of deaths from non-melanoma skin cancer occurred among people aged 69 years and over. More than 70 per cent of those were men, and in most cases the primary cancer developed on the face, ears, hands or scalp"

The average age of death caused by non-melanoma skin cancer was about 77 years old, and most primary cancers appeared in areas of high sun exposure for men, the scalp was the primary cancer site in a quarter of these deadly cancer cases,

"Each year in Western Australia, it's estimated that around 30,000 non-melanoma skin cancers are removed and there are 37 deaths from these types of cancers."

the above from a western australian  study  of non melanoma skin cancers


cancer is a complex product of immune system failure and genotoxic stress and the smartness of the cancer in avoiding the immune system, the older the cancer, the smarter it gets

its intrinsic to cancers that they get better at avoiding the host's immune system as they get older


the best method i have found for removing a mole is as follows :

i put a drop of lugols so it covers the mole, and do this about five times in a day, then the next day do three freeze-thaw cycles one after the other with a liquid nitrogen cooled probe if significant freezing depth is required, however wartner does work for superficial moles

after the mole has blistered and the blister come off, the application of lugols again may be useful

two freeze/thaw cycles may be adequate for a superfical mole and at the other extreme a deep difficult mole may benefit from 4 cycles

the more freeze/thaw cycles the more substantial the tissue damage, and a pronounced reddish scar with a slight indentation from permanent tissue damage to some degree or other is left, though the red will fade a bit with time

"the practical requirements for effective cell killing by cyrosurgery are rapid freezing at rates higher than 100C/minute, tissue temperature below 25C, slow thawing at a rate of 10C/minute or less and two freeze thaw cycles" from dermatologic surgery: textbook and atlas  page 101

one of the limitations of using very large probes, say with a contact diameter of 15 mm or bigger, is that you can get a very deep freezing zone in the center of the probe which risks going down to nerves, depending on the position

the generation of the scar tissue is an important part of the safety of freezing since its unlikely the tissue will support the blood supply a cancer needs, should the cancer not be entirely killed

a hefty liquid nitrogen cooled copper probe will freeze much deeper than wartner

photo of probe end   (690k)     longitudinal view of probe   (660k)

veterinarian  probes

the outside diameter of the probe is aproximately 19 mm and the length 16 cm tapering to small circular flats, 9 mm one end and 6 mm the other end with the curvatures 9 mm long

an excellent dewar for liquid nitrogen is the taylor-wharton XT-10, that's extended holding time, 10 liters, worth every cent but expensive

years ago when they would still supply liquid nitrogen to thermos's, i dropped a probe in so it shattered the glass container in the thermos and it blew up like a hand grenade as the escaping liquid nitrogen escaped, so i think the interior of the thermos/dewar whatever has to be steel

the probe is lowered into the liquid nitrogen which boils off and left another 5 minutes after the boiling has stopped since this may give some further lowering of the temperature to the probe

i just wrap some wire in a spiral around the probe and run a bit across under it to make a little cage to hold the probe and that way its easy to take out of the cage once the probe is very cold and has been removed from the liquid nitrogen

once the probe is taken out of the liquid nitrogen, speed is of the essence and it is quickly wrapped in insulating foam so that it can be held and just the end is poking out

rubber insulating gloves are needed to pull the probe out of its cage and placed on the foam ready to wrap, but then the gloves are taken off and the wrapping is done by hand then immediately placed on the mole

exact placement of the probe is always a bit tricky, so its best to lift the probe after a second or two of contact to see by the ice circle how its placed and adjust if necessary

if it's cold enough, it should sting for say a minute and three quarters, and if a very deep freeze is wanted can be held on up to three minutes

an adequate pressure for the probe to be held on the skin should considerably indent the skin which is why the probe curves are shaped the way they are

three or four freeze thaw cycles one after the other may be neccessary to kill deep cancerous cells, but there is also more skin discolouration when it heals and this may be permanent scar tissue

initally a big blister forms

the above is a description of how a growing melanoma was successfully killed for a friend, since the wartner didn't freeze deep enough, and it appeared there was no metastasis since the lymph nodes were not raised at all and there have been no complications since !

she has been left with a small scar which still hurts slightly if pressed, which i assume is from nerves trying to grow into the scar tissue but will always be caught on the skin scar junction and this is noticable as pain when the scar is pressed

too much scar tissue is one of the limitations of cyrosurgery, though the way it causes the frozen mole to be infilled with scar tissue is also why it can be so effective since cancers can't grow with the much more restricted blood supply and growth factors in scar tissue

the freezing technique is much better at generating antigens so the bodies immune system can attack any potential small metastasis, so the friend opted for this instead of going to a dermatologist, since the dermatologist would just do scapel surgery which has a much higher risk of metastasis compared to cyrosurgery

using a cotton  swab  instead of probes !

scapel surgery has the opposite effect, the trauma causes a local reduction in immune system activity which is why punch biopsies can can spread cancer

freezing can kill nerves or permanently damage muscle so its important to keep well clear of the spine and bones

also i think that any muscle that is frozen will have scar tissue in it or atrophy a bit

the crust/tissue/scab formed will come off after about three or four days and leave a red spot bigger than the mole and roughly corresponding to the freezing area

i put some more lugols iodine on after the first scabbing comes off

the secret of putting on lugols is to make sure the mole is horizontal so the drop of lugols just sits there and doesn't run off, so the iodine is all absorbed which takes about 5 to 10 minutes

i have two red spots at the moment from freezing moles with wartner plus the lugols treatment (15th of december 2007) on my arm, and will update the site on when (and if!) they revert to to normal looking skin which may take a month i think

2rd january 2008, you can scarcely see where the moles were, almost indisdinguisable from the surrounding skin, a slight pink where they were, extremely successful

the raised fluid filled blister occurs maybe from about 8? hours after the freezing with wartner and within 10? minutes for a liquid nitrogen cooled probe

freezing is used to kill kidney tumours and seems to not promote cancer forming mutations as it splits the dna in killing the cell and doesn't leave any mutagenic artifacts, rather the opposite, creating helpful anitgens for the immune system to identify and act against !

iodine on the skin stimulates the immune system to search out mutagenic tissue, one of the moles above i preconditioned with iodine, you could see that some of the mutagenic tissue in the mole was killed by the iodine because the pigment in the mole became freckled

practically speaking, deeper moles require deeper freezing to get down to the errant stem cells

fat is a good insulator, so say freezing a mole on the buttock may be limited in the depth of the freeze attained

i am thinking of getting a liquid nitrogen sprayer, maybe a  brymill , quite expensive but easier for superficial moles on difficult surfaces !

probes the way i use them do give a slow warming which is  beneficial


We conclude that UV-irradiated melanin, particularly pheomelanin, photosensitizes adjacent cells to caspase-3 independent apoptosis, and this occurs at a frequency greater than the apoptosis induced by direct DNA absorption of UV. Melanin-induced apoptosis may contribute to the increased sensitivity of individuals with blonde and red hair to sunburn and skin cancer.”

“We conclude that apoptotic keratinocytes in skin are induced by direct DNA absorption of UVB radiation, independent of melanin.”

the above quotes from “Melanin acts as a potent UVB photosensitizer to cause an atypical mode of cell death in murine skin”  study

my comment:

uvb may also have some systemic induction of apoptosis e.g. in breast cancers

i would infer that the actual irridative component of uvb and not just making vitamin D and pre vitamin D, has an anti-cancer role

its reasonable to expect the uvb on the skin has an apoptotic role there, but from this  research  i would assume there is a systemic effect


kim type moles (i have yet to find a correct diagnostic name for this, its a raised keratinous mole) get very resistant to the immune system the older they get, new ones are got rid of much easier

all my brown moles are getting quite faint with my home constructed vitamin D lamp use, probably as a result of the melanin absorbing the uvb, getting damaged and being removed by the immune system (autophagocytosis?)

except one which was getting darker which i took for a sign having developed the ablility to avoid apoptosis so i used iodine and garlic and it has completely gone (note: i no longer use garlic)

though i think some faint brown remaining is ok, the immune system has still got the more dangerous mutations, since darker is an indication of deeper

bluer is also an indication of deeper i think

still pink though, maybe that will go away over several months, will have to wait and see (note: the pink seems to a fade after a while)

works on  actinic  keratosis too

but not anything raised say above 1mm?

raised moles need to be frozen i think, especially keratinous ones

actually garlic is such a business to apply and at least two freeze-thaw cycles works so well that i am dropping the garlic in favour of preconditioning the mole with lugols iodine and then multiple freeze thaw cycles possibly followed by some limited application of iodine several days later

also garlic may have some mutagenic capacity, but the iodine does not appear to be mutagenic

i did read of some-one who applied garlic to a mole on his face for a while but it didn't go away and when the mole was biopsied it was melanoma, but he had had the mole biospied before applying the garlic and it wasn't melanoma at that stage

the skin may remain dark for quite a while after a mole flakes off from freezing and could take several months to recover, its a very severe trauma to the skin, like a burn, but they should slowly fade

i have previously used copper rods dropped in the liquid nitrogen

to freeze the moles which seemed to work ok

but it has been more convenient recently to get wartner or scholls wart freezing kits from the pharmacist and they are ok, the scholls for very large moles only as it freezes a large skin area

the wartner seems to be colder and more effective than the scholls

however a weakness of wartner and scholls is that there is no firm pressure against the mole whereas a liquid nitrogen frozen copper probe gives firm pressure and thus reduces warming blood circulation in the mole area

the wartner canister needs to be shaken very vigorously just before pressing the key and foam applicator into the canister for freezing

the applicator should be put on the mole immediately after it has been frozen and applied as vertically as possible, so the freezing liquid can drop onto the mole

liquid nitrogen sprayed on ulcerated skin can cause embolism

basics of cyrosurgery p92  by Nikolai N. Korpan

the colder temperatures of liquid nitrogen are more effective compared to the lesser cold of the chemical evaporating systems of wartner and scholls

scalpel surgery shocks the immune system, i read that t cell count goes down by fifty percent with scalpel surgery but up by about 25% with cyrosurgery

since scalpel cancer surgery spreads some cancer cells, you need the immune system to be hot to trot, but the t cell count goes down when its most needed to go up

there is actually a lot of work integrating cyrosurgery into scalpel cancer surgery now

punch biopsies can push cancerous tissue deeper, not what you want if it is a metastasizing melanoma or any other skin cancer

i know a woman who had skin staph pushed into her blood and got a systemic staph infection from a punch biopsy, however she had a very depressed immune system from too many amalgam fillings being removed at once

the limitation on freezing is really the amount of permanent damaged skin it may create and also killed nerves

freezing leaves a tell-tale lesser pigmented ring, in and around the area of application


i used 35% hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) on a flat brown mole with a dark shade of brown and a lighter shade, it had been unchanged for many years, but applying hydrogen peroxide for about five days, it decreased in size and became a uniform light brown in colour.

however it also became raised like a small lump which was scary so i applied iodine tincture semi-intensively for several days and the lump went away which was a relief, however this being raised may have just been a temporary effect of the hydrogen peroxide and since it summons white blood cells i now think the raisedness was an inflammatory response

hydrogen peroxide is mutagenic in the thyroid, creating gene adducts and other mutations, it will also be mutagenic on the skin so i have a question about using it on any moles that may be precusors to melanoma

if you read the  “ moles are mutagenic melanocytes held in suspended animation ”  section on this page, u will see that most oncogenes (cancerous genetic changes) in melanocytes trigger some senescence mechanism and a mole is in fact a cancerous melanocyte held in a retarded production state by virtue of these senescence mechanisms

melanoma is an oncogene that is not covered by the inbuilt senescence mechanisms of the melanocytes, or the inbuilt senescence mechanisms themselves have been impaired

a possibility is the application of hydrogen peroxide to a mole thus held in check temporarily releases the check and until the melanocytes regain control of the senescence mechanisms which is maybe within a period of hours, the mole again becomes cancerous which i think has happened once with me with the development of a dark patch where there was none before, a  liver  spot actually !

this was from exposure to my  homemade  uvb lamp however and not hydrogen peroxide, which is perhaps what you would expect !

so at this point i don't think that hydrogen peroxide on the skin forms cancer at all, rather the opposite, it inducts a strong anti-cancer and general immune response !

however, hydrogen peroxide can freely distribute through and into other cells.

“ it roams around, and can damage the DNA in cells ”     study

there are success  stories  of using hydrogen peroxide on the net so it may be an effective remedy for superficial moles


update 24th may 2010:

i tried some 35% food grade hydrogen peroxide on what was likely a thin  basal  cell carcinoma on my nose, two applications within about ten minutes of each other and that was it, a reddish very noticeable scab formed and took about 6 days to completely disappear and the result is excellent, almost entirely gone, skin smooth, just a small area of red left, its pretty much better, say 95% after several months

update 12th of july 2010:

for several days i applied HP quite intensively with very occasional (separated timing) david craig iodine to a why might be called a sort of pore of winer on the underside of my nose, some combination of acne and skin cancer which is not uncommon !

picking at the raised pore/bump with a needle first to open it up a bit to the hp is important

maybe a 60-80% improvement?

several days of intensive HP application was enough to induce stiffness in my lower back , presumably from the HP exciting immune action against collagen in the spinal disks, i think from dermatomes i can even work out what area of the spine !

with oral vitamin D, my  homemade  UVB lamp, occasional microdose  MSM,  not bending from the waist and stopping HP use, it seems to be recovering, tho i will put more effort into bending my knees rather than back


the stages of melanoma are: surface spreading, vertical growth like a small lump and/or very deep colour, and the fatal stage which is metastasis

the destruction of melanoma cells occurs between -5C and -7C whereas the destruction of connective tissue occurs lower than -20C


i have read of a man with what sounded like a supressed immune system applying garlic to a mole on his cheek that then became melanomic, so garlic might be mutagenic as well

moles with any keratinous content like seborrheic keratoses will benefit by freezing (wartner?); two freeze/thaw cycles at a time and it may need repeating later


a thin razor blade works well with skin tags

two freezings of wartner in one go will make a skin tag go crusty and able to be pulled off about 53 hours later, although with a slight amount of bleeding


angiomas are very resistant to treatment, most likely because of their limited carcinogenity and deepness in the skin, electro-cautery or laser will most likely be necessary, though if u read belown, using a small heated stainless steel rod to cauterise them seems to work

they can be burnt off with very little scar by using a small (3mm) diameter stainless rod in a wooden handle so the rod diameter just covers the angioma

heat the rod in a gas flame until very hot (almost but not any red?) then very slightly press it to the angioma and you should hear a fizzle/pop sound

placement needs to be very precise and done by another person, one hand holding the handle and the other with a heavy glove with the rod sliding through it

there is a small scar or mark left which applying vitamin e on for several days after the burning seems to greatly help reduce

e. writes:

i think the burning from the stainless steel rod might well have almost completely removed those angiomas if there is anything left think it will be merely a tiny dark spot and a very small one at that

the HP seemed to helped get rid of what was left

Two of the very small ones I did with HP were like a mix, they had keritosis and mole like aspects, they were both flesh and dark brown coloured in different patches and were raised/knobbly also, the others were pure keratosis plain flesh/pink in colour and knobbly

maybe those small moles that HP worked on were kim type moles, but very young so easily killed?


its really looking like those 2 angiomas you fried have completely gone, wether any tiny scar remains will have to wait and see

there is no red left

3 lots of HP applied a couple of days after frying

i think the HP is really what helped get rid of the debris left over

  “ A complication common to cartilaginous piercings of the ear is known as hypertrophic scarring that occurs in some individuals because of a chronic inflammatory process. In this condition, excessive scar tissue forms around the healing fistula. In addition to normal wound care; some practitioners recommend adding hydrogen peroxide to the cleaning regimen

Hydrogen peroxide is known to be damaging to forming epithelial cells, and can inhibit continued anomalous scar formation ”      (D. Munro)

my comment:

that might be a reason why it helped with those cauterised angiomas and conversely would expect to cause issues if applied to the penis glans with its highly unstable epithelial cells, especially if there has been circumcision


a yahoo iodine post  (april 07)  by laura

I painted a suspicious mole with Lugol's ... about ten days ago

This mole had all the hallmarks of  "suspicious",  irregular border, uneven color, REALLY dark in one area, almost black.

I painted the mole with Lugol's, also painted a non-suspicious mole and a  "clear"  area of skin(all on my upper arm) to compare.

The suspicious mole seemed to suck the iodine right up, it kind of had a sheen to it.

I re-painted all three areas a few times that day. The next morning that mole slid right off, the Lugol's dissolved it. The other areas showed no change whatsoever.

The area was a little raw so I left it alone. It scabbed over and I commenced painting it, once a day. 4 days ago the scab fell off and there was fresh new pink skin

The area shows no scar whatsoever!

Lugol's seems to target compromised tissue and leaves healthy tissue alone. If that mole was cancerous, apparently the Lugol's stimulated atopsis in the cancerous tissue.

If the mole was a manifestation of  "toxins"  exiting via the skin, the Lugol's seemed to speed up that process.

I'd  (laura)  like to add here that I had a similar experience a couple of years ago with a mole  "dissolving".  At that time I was eating a LOT of fruit, a lot of raw food, a very cleansing diet.

I had a mole just  "dissolve"  during that time. What I gather from this is that the body WILL heal itself if properly supported...Lugol's seems to turbo-charge that process...:)


another woman used  caxometer  iodine dressings

  “ I have been using it on several, some quite large, ugly Sebaceous Keratoses, and sucessfully gotten rid of them. They were on my torso

I took a before and after pic of the largest one. It did leave a slightly dark spot, but it has only been a few weeks, also so did lasering a couple of them off a few years ago

But they did fade totally away in several months. The smaller ones have left a very faint or no mark at all. I am very happy ”


eileen writes:

I tried applying lugols iodine and iodine tincture for 3 weeks without a result so then switched to 2 applications of Wartner  to freeze 2 large seborrheic keratoses on my thigh, Afterwards I applied russian garlic for 3 days which Really brought on such an immune reaction it burnt me to blisters

The keritosis ripped completely off with the plasters tho and applying lugols iodine seems to have caused the temporary burn to fade right down with time and I think that will dissappear entirely in the end !


an unkown author:

I have often found that if you are working on a specific mole or wart, that it is helpful to "rough it up" so to speak. You don't have to cut into it, but take a brand new, clean emery board and very lightly pull it across the spot, just enough so that it would cause tiny little spots of the skin in the area to be scraped, almost microscopic though, you don't need to make it bleed.


"Cherry angioma is the most common kind of angioma. It is also called a Senile angioma or Campbell de Morgan spot, after the nineteenth century British surgeon Campbell De Morgan who first noted and described them.

These are made up of clusters of tiny capillaries at the surface of the skin, and range in color from bright red to purple. When they first develop, they may only be a few millimeters across, but sometimes grow to a centimeter or more in diameter. As they grow larger, they tend to expand in thickness, and may take on the raised and rounded shape of a dome. Because the blood vessels comprising the angioma are so close to the skin's surface, cherry angiomas may bleed profusely if they are injured."

A  pic  of what they are...

basically cherry and spider angiomas are not very cancerous and quite deep seated so don't respond to HP or iodine or freezing and will have to be removed by electrocautery, laser or be burnt off with a 3mm heated stainless steel probe

they are just not cancerous enough to be attacked by the immune system, which is basically how the iodine and freezing works


don't freeze any moles directly on the spine or too near the tail bone as i would worry about the spinal nerves being damaged


janet writes :

I thought that I would give an update on my  cellular naevus  mole. I have been putting a couple drops of iodine on it 2 times a day for a little over two weeks (I think). This mole was the biggest one that I have, and I really didn't know if it would be affected since it is a bit on the large side (really raised).

Well, first it seemed like it started to lose color except for one dark line that has always been there, but it was so subtle that I wasn't certain (still am not certain). Then it seemed like it flattened out the tiniest bit, but - again - it was so subtle that I wasn't certain. Then the skin got really rough and scabby. So last night I picked at it a bit (sorry to gross you out). When it opened up, I put two drops of iodine on it (boy, that stung real bad). Then this morning it is almost completely flattened and rather scabby again.

OK. So I don't know if picking at it was appropriate, but I thought I would tell ya'll what went down.

my reply :

yeah using iodine on moles you have to go through the pain barrier a bit

opening up the mole would have been a big help as it let the iodine get down to skin level

janet again

Aside from crusty, scabby, orange-tinted sandpaper skin on my shoulder, my mole is entirely gone now. I opened it up again and put more iodine on it yesterday. It is completely flat, but the skin where the mole was is really discolored from the iodine "dying" the dead skin.

I can hardly believe it. So many years of irritation from that thing, and now it is gone


only ever do one mole at a time unless they are very close to each other, moles can go wrong.

using iodine tincture, lugols and garlic i have eliminated three flat moles now (old - see below, have changed method)

freezing in several freeze/thaw cycles, one after the other, then applying iodine over several days seem to work well and is easier and more effective than garlic

andrew : the potentially melanomarous, slightly raised mole on your arm that went completely, that was mutil freeze/thaw frozen followed by iodine?

eileen : yes, iodine tincture, applied 3 times, thats all

andrew: how long did you wait befroe applying the iodine?

eileen : 2 days after the freezing

eileen : the blister burst in the night of the second day and i applied the iodine on the third day first thing in the morning, then an additional 2 mornings after that

eileen : i'm really pleased with how it went



"Every tumour of the skin can be completely removed with Iodine Tincture 7%, brushed many times (10-20) per day. When the crust is formed, dont take it away, but treat the area continuously and wait till it falls without any other intervention except the Iodine tincture. When the crust falls down the third time, the patient is healed.” -  Dr. Tullio Simoncini

Eileen writes (january 30th 2008):

I'm trying to get rid of a rather suspect mole I have that is quite different than any other I've got or had, (It was very rounded raised and shaped like a current, dark and felt quite deep) It's one that started to break up but I stopped treating it too soon previously and was not applying lugols often enough, 3_5 times a day

This time around I've been applying a lot of undiluted lugols iodine thro out the day at least 15? times a day to the point its painful if even brushed over lightly

This made me very sleepy about midday but also stay awake at least till 12.30am for 2 days so I've been using almost 1/4 of a capsule a day of manganese (12.5mg) for the last 3 days and this has stopped both of those aspects more iodine seemed to induce

Only going to do this till the mole has disappeared as much as I can make it which does seem to be happening, its flattened out and is breaking up/going away much more.

further comments by eileen on the 4th of feburary 2008:

wow the scab came off that buttock mole and its shrunk to 3 dots about a 1/4 of the size it originally was and seems to be flat :oO

running my little finger over it as thats soft skinned and i cant feel any raised at all

that's about a week of almost constant lugols application, applying it almost every 1/2 hour

i think I'll push on with the lugols and see if i can get rid of it entirely, I'm really excited about this :o)

my reply:

nah all you need is for it to be flat, you can never get rid of the pigment entirely, i'D leave it at this point, you have done the work

my comment:

i am sure this was a dangerous mole and its interesting to consider wether this simoncini lugols method was safer than a biospy and surgical removal since biopsy needles can draw cancer cells back along the exit path of the needle and surgery also has the risk of spreading cancerous cells

eileen could have saved herself from getting metastatic melanoma in several years, this mole was unusual, the only one like that on her skin (unlikeness to any other moles on the body is an indicative sign of melanoma) and and solid

a couple of days before she stopped putting iodine on, the mole had stopped being painful or itchy with the lugols application, this may have been nerve death

she was also doing the skin application of 35% hydrogen peroxide (not on the mole , but another unrelated area of skin for immune stimulation) that may have been a significant contributor to the mole removal



Why don't all moles  progress  to melanoma?

"The cells are held in check they don't die, but they don't proliferate either. In the case of moles, melanocytes can stay this way for 20 to 40 years or even your whole life. For most of us, just holding cells in an arrested state is sufficient to prevent the development of cancer. That's why so many people have moles, but few have melanoma."

my comment :

interesting as to why they hang in there and in fact when you get past fifty and they start to mutate more, the immune system can identify and kill them and thats why you can lose moles past that age

by the time you get to seventy i think you are just a boiling cauldron of mutating cells and cumulatively your risk of cancer or some other illness rapidly escalates

the point at which the endoplasmic reticulum suspends division of the melanocytes is well before any melanoma development and in fact may only roughly be in the same dimension

but obviously this has always been a biological design issue with humans, a cell that rapidly divides as part of its natural function so is difficult for the immune system to distinguish cancerous from correct function, and the cells already loaded with the genes for dispersion through the body as part of thier role in embryological development


Using satellite data to measure the amount of sunlight that people got where they lived when they were young, robert millikan at the unc school of public health and his team found that people who were exposed to high amounts of ambient ultraviolet radiation when they were 20 or younger had a higher chance of mutation in a gene called BRAF. Those who got high amounts of sunlight between the ages of 50 and 60 had a higher chance of mutation in a gene called NRAS.

The BRAF and NRAS genes control the division of skin cells that produce the pigment that gives skin its color (melanocytes).

The initial change that can be seen on the skin is a small, gray, irregularly shaped blur which gradually grows outward, said Millikan.




I just purchased a vitamin D lamp from sperti. Any one using one and find it helpful with overall anti-bacterial load? Since losing the sun I'm dealing with lower back problems/ pelvis problems that were much improved with summer sun. I've been in physical therapy to try and help the problem but after 2 months I'm still having mobility issues. I tried vitamin D supplementation last year and it didn't agree with me at all so I'm hoping the vitamin D lamp will be a better fit. Any feedback on vitamin D lamp useage would be appreciated. thanks so much,


scd, lyme & fun co-infections

my reply:

skin vitamin D is very helpful for joint problems and really builds muscle and the heart and promotes good posture and a flat tight stomach wall

i was not happy with any of the available lamps that were in a reasonable price range and built my own uvb-only fluorescent lamps which are not expensive to make using philips broadband uvb tubes

i move the lamp slowly over my body, never holding it still over one spot.

where the body remains in the same position in respect to a lamp or panel array i think there is the potential for  "hot spots"  on the skin which is why i greatly prefer my homemade uvb lamps

my  homemade  uvb lamps are better than oral vitamin D, but i find in practice that both are needed

dropped using the lamp for five days, just taking 1000iu oral D (blackmores) to see if lamp use was affecting my sore acromioclavicular joint, but it didn't, so i used the lamp again and it definitely gives something extra compared to the oral D

the homebuilt lamp improves bacterial infection resistance as well compared to oral D

tanning lamps and probably any UV lamp and even the sun may be  contraindicated  if you have a rash or take nonsteriodal anti-inflammatories (ibuprofen!) or are on any sort of a drug !!


i think the maximal vitamin D effect with the homebuilt uvb lamp is after a shower, especially if the skin has been scrubbed

but don't have the water too hot because you don't want to use a lamp with damaged skin

there is 99% absorbtion of uvb and 95% absorbtion of uva within 300 microns (.3mm) of the skin surface, so cleaning must have a very significant effect in allowing the uvb to penetrate further into the cell membranes where the cholesterol to be converted resides   study

oddly if you use the lamp in quite a substantial fashion immediately after a shower and scrubbing, then the effect about three hours later is i get so tired i can hardly stand which maybe means that a huge amount of skin vitamin d has been made and is quite therapeutic i think, good for the pancreatic islets and sleep, a very substantial temporary supression of the immune system, especially for males

i don't think using the uvb lamp does feed back to the circadian rhythm so can be used at any time, but allowing for a several hour enervation period immediately afterwards !

however stem cells in the skin modulate uv  protection  by turning on genes to guard the integrity of duplicating DNA depending on the time of day !

leave at least six hours if showering after lamp use, you don't want to accentuate any erythemal damage from the lamp with hot water

also i leave say 20 minutes at least after showering and scrubbing before using the lamp to give the skin some time to build some dead cells and oil cover for protection against any UVC  (very short wavelenght)  in the lamp rays !


normally when i use the compact uvb lamp there's an intial enervation effect and the full load of vitamin d doesn't hit for about 16 hours

however today the woodheater was quite hot giving off a lot of radiant heat so i warmed myself after doing the lamp, thats direct radiation through the glass window on the skin, just backed off a bit from the point of discomfort and i could feel the vitamin d hitting immediately and certainly now, five hours later

quite a good trick as i like the vitamin d to hit before bed as it makes me dull and sleepy

according to the theory heat releases the pre vitamin d formed in the skin into the blood


“men were immunosuppressed by solar simulated UV doses three times lower than those required to immunosuppress women.”    study

new research is showing thats it's more uva than uvb which causes melanoma, as the uva generates the oxidising type genetic damage that gives rise to melamona, so the lamp being mostly uvb turned out well, though i am sure uvb is also a factor in melanoma

the uva mechanism for causing melanoma is oxidative stress and not slicing up dna like uvb does, and also uva goes quite a bit deeper in the skin which greatly increases the metastasis potential

basically you do need to be vigilant and experienced with identifying and removing moles or going to a dermatologist if you have any sort of question about them, if you are using any sort of uv lamp or sun booth

there is a cosmetic plus side to less moles :o)

the techniques eileen and i have developed for mole removal on ourselves are basically skin applied iodine, 35% hydrogen peroxide and freezing, but you need the compendium to tolerate the high levels of skin application of iodine without going too hyper or developing thyroidal autoimmunity problems

with my lamp i am constantly moving it over my body to avoid  hot spots

you would want to think about avoiding hot spots with a fixed postion lamp like sperti by keeping your body moving when the lamp is on it !

avoid tanning lamps, they just reduce the vitamin D effect of the lamp and gives unwanted melanoma inducing UVA energy!


interestingly, a friend, using my homemade uvb lamp lamp several days in succession eventually completely stopped severe stabbing pains due to a prolapsed or floppy mitral valve and there are reports on the web of high dose vitamin D  (8000? iu daily)  reversing aortic valve disease

the uvb lamp really makes my heart go well and i think its very therapeutic for both aortic and mitral valve issues and general heart remodelling

“heart valve disease is caused not by a  wear and tear  phenomenon, but by an inflammatory process likely triggered by high cholesterol that stimulates certain cells to reprogram into bone cells in the aortic valve and cartilage cells in the mitral valve”     study


what i don't like about mercury vapour and fluorescent  tanning lamps  is they have a lot of extra energy in the UVA melanoma inducing zone

the philips broadband uvb fluorescent tubes i use in my homebuilt lamp don't have this extra energy and are quite well targeted onto the optimal uvb producing zone

i think minimizing the energy is very important so you just do what makes the vit D and nothing else, except maybe a blue/turquoise spike to process bilirubin !


washing and scrubbing the skin before sunbathing greatly increases the amount of vitamin D made in the skin by reducing the barrier between the epidermal cells and the UVB

however in the case of broadband UVB lamps which have a bit of hard to avoid UVC in, an hour or so or even half a day between scrubbing and using the lamp may be necessary to give the skin a chance to build up a layer of dead cells as protection against the UVC

the sun is different from the broadband UVB lamps, it has no UVC, as the atmosphere absorbs the UVC, however on the negative side, compared to the broadband uvb lamp, it doesn't have as much UVB and has heaps of highly oxidizing UVA !

the scrubbing makes more vit D for a given amount of time in the sun

UVC is quite energetic and harmful, tho only likely to potentially cause kerotoses imo, not melanoma

since there is no benefit to UVC, you are better without it, only it's hard to get zero from broadband UVB lamps

scrubbed and with low liver iron levels from donating blood, 12 minutes bathing in sun with a 68 degree altitude  (a solartech  6.4  meter reading of 81)  gave me quite a bit of vit D, can feel it hitting a day later


"children born to mothers whose final three months of pregnancy included a summer month were 40% less likely to suffer the bone-wasting condition (osteoporosis) in adult-hood."

"sun lamps are an option. it needs to be the right kind of sun lamp to convert fat under the skin to vitamin D."

the above quotes from a study by dr. marwan bukhari, (a rheumatologist) and colleagues who studied 17,000 patients, mostly women and 95% of whom were white.

they had all had scans carried out at the royal lancaster infirmary between 1992 and 2004.


the basic effect of the broadband uvb fluorescent lamp is to make most moles go lighter, but a very few will go darker and you need to watch them and also be able to feel how raised they are

and really you need to be able to remove them by freezing if necessary as freezing is much safer than scapel surgical removal

in actual fact there is an underground of homebuilt uvb lamp users for skin conditions, but liability considerations mean no-one will ever promote it and as always i do not recommend the use of uvb lamps, i am simply describing what i am doing

they are much more into uvb lamps in eastern europe for obvious reasons

a non obvious reason is in this fascinating  study  on other beneficial photoproducts apart from vit D from uvb which has been my experience with a uvb lamp, that it gives something that oral D3 doesn't :o)

“ Importantly, 20(OH)D3, 20,23(OH)2D3 and 20(OH)D2, as well as 17,20(OH)2pD, are non-toxic and non-calcemic in rodents. These and related novel secosteroids show anti-proliferative, pro-differentiation, anti-cancer, anti-fibrosing and anti-inflammatory properties that are determined by their chemi- cal structure and the lineage of the target cells ”


with a new lamp/tube and skin not used to it, you may find you burn quite easily

the problem with burns is they are delayed from the time of exposure so you can give yourself quite a bit of exposure and have the severe burns turn up afterwards

burns to the cornea of the eye are excruciatingly painful, goggles are a necessity, i use the uvex 'blacknight' welding goggles in shade 5 (they look like ski goggles).

uvb, like the sun, increases the need for vitamin A, i find supplementation with either mycel A or retinyl acetate necessary


b. writes in reference to a uvb lamp he built:

i flicked it over my body a few weeks ago for about 1min 3 secs before the reflector was in place for a few days and it made me quite lethargic so i'm thinking maybe 3 mins once a week?

my reply:

i have just measured the uvb on my lamp at six inches and the meter showed 900, so the lamp is probably giving about 15 times the amount of uvb compared to the sun on a sunny day in the northern mid latitudes in june/july

the lamp does take about a minute to a minute and a half to warm up and also can get so hot that the output drops after about five to ten minutes so i turn it off if it gets too hot and wait a couple of minutes to cool before switching it back on, but you seem to be so sensitive that i doubt you will ever run into using it that long

eileen and myself use it at about an inch which is about 20 times the brightest sun here or about 33 times the brightest sun in scotland

the lamp rays are strongest in the middle third of the tube

the first six hours after lamping i find give enervation and then the vitamin d and immune suppression peak about 19 hours later

the vitamin d makes the heart get more muscled so the heart should beat stronger and will have a fibrillation (flutter) for quarter to half a minute at some point as the timing in the heart readjusts

also vitamin d sculpts the muscles and improves body tone

however the immune supression (which i assume is the fatigue you are feeling) which is much stronger in men than women and which lasts for a day or two, is a bummer

the tubes give the strongest uvb when very new and the output does drop after several hours use and need longer exposure times and being held closer to compensate

the best results are when the tubes are very new, so make the most of it and don't leave them running unnecessarily

at some point the tube output drops so low that a new one is needed, but that may be a year to several years away



i had a liver/age spot on my left cheek that had become quite noticable so i used a combination of topical iodine tincture and 35% food grade hydrogen peroxide to remove it !

the age spot was on an area of mild eczema i had had off and on all my life so there must have been an accumulation of mutations in those cells culminating in the spot's darkening in the typical “liver” manner recently

i would apply iodine tincture about 24 to 4 hours beforehand then apply the 35% HP with a cotton bud and maybe another application later the same day and i did this every 2nd or sometimes 3rd day to make three or four days total that i had applied it on!

why preconditioning skin flaws/spots, pre-cancers and cancers with iodine before the application of  35%  hydrogen  peroxide  may be that it  wakes up  stem cells harboring mutations which then exposes them to the immune action excited by the hp  (and also the iodine!)

if you are applying to a spot up near the cheek bone be careful to take any glasses off as they can concentrate fumes so that the eye is irritated !

after the third or fourth or maybe fifth time of applying the HP, you just have to leave it for a week or so to see the result for certain because it takes a while to heal up enough to see what the final result is, tho i could pretty well tell on the last application of the HP that the spot was gone, i just couldn't tell the final effect !

the HP was in a plastic bottle cap and i just left it on a bench and it keeps enough potency over the time period necessary to effect the removal!

in fact i think the water must selectively evaporate off and the potency of the hp left in the bottle cap increases !

the age/liver spot has completely gone, but left a slight redness which may be just be the increased vascularization of the liver spot but the pigment is all gone !

the previously dark coloured area blends well enough into the face now that i have no complaints and am quite happy with the result!

a year later i can no longer tell where the liver spot was !

the use of hydrogen peroxide to remove age spots is a common procedure judging by the web references to it, wether the topical iodine is necessary i don't know for sure but i think it does help!

35% hydrogen peroxide is fairly painful for a couple of minutes and creates a prominent temporary “wound”, however imo what i did worked extremely well tho the net advice on this topic seems to use standard pharmacist 3% HP, but the results appeared to less certain and take longer!

you just grin and bear the pain, it goes away and the whole white bubbles in the skin business settles down to looking not too bad within several hours !

my compendium supplements  page  on hydrogen peroxide

it is an immune stimulant and people with very depressed immune systems and an accumulation of skin cell mutations may be at risk for a disfiguring runaway immune response so i think it needs to be tested on a very small area of skin first and you would really need to feel you way in terms of larger skin areas

i am not recommending this procedure to remove liver spots, it's a sort of blog on what i have done and if you are considering trying it you should see a competent dermatologist who may in fact freeze the spot off for you

i am not sure wether it's a good idea to apply HP too soon after UVB lamp or sun exposure to the application area of skin, an area on my face i did this too almost straight after using my homemade UVB lamp  went dark ,  in effect forming a liver spot, tho the skin was already not right/ damaged/ precancerous

i did consider freezing with liquid nitrogen cooled probes but in fact the HP and iodine tincture is easier to organise and perhaps gives a better result as one is not left with a pure white depigmented spot but something with a shade of pink/red that blends in well with the rest of the face !

maybe it might stay too red for some people with extremely unblemished white skin or there may be individual differences in the degree of vascularization of the liver spot, this sort of thing may not work as well for you as it has for me!

i don't think it's vain to keep your face free of the usual age related stuff as you get older, i think it does make a difference to how people treat you and a little ongoing effort in this respect pays dividends !

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