Guests on this program were: 
Ally Walker
Howie Mandel
Jack Burkman
John Kay
   
  Bill's Opening (we'll skip that)

Panel Discussion 

Bill: Let us meet our  Panel.
He is a Republican Party strategist and a political commentator for Fox news -- Jack Burkman.
Jack!  Hey, Jack! 

[ Applause ]

A fine actress.
Her new movie "Happy Texas" will be in theaters everywhere this fall -- Ally Walker.
Ally, yeah!
Hey! 

[ Cheers and Applause ]

How are you? 

Ally: Good. 

Bill: Good to see you. 

[ Applause ]

He's a rock 'n' roll legend who sold over 20 million records as the leader of Steppenwolf -- John Kay!  John, hey! 

[ Applause ] 

John: How you doing, bill? 

Bill: How are you? 

[ Applause ] 

John: Thank you. 

Bill: Nice to see you there.  And he's a swell actor/comedian. He is my good friend -- Howie Mandel is right over here! 

[ Cheers and applause ]

How are you, buddy?
Okay.
Well, one of the stories that I think is interesting going on today is Sara  Jane Olson.
You probably have heard this on the news.  She went by the name Kathleen Ann Soliah when she was planting car bombs -- 
allegedly -- 

[ Laughter ]

-- under police cars.
They found her after all these years.
She was in the SLA.
That's the terrorist organization that kidnapped Patty Hearst and changed her  point of view.
For the last 20 years, she's been a devoted mother of three.
She married a doctor.
She's been in church groups, done community theater -- we won't hold that  against her.
Um -- 

[ Laughter ]

And the question is, 25 years ago, planting bombs under police cars, is it  water under the bridge? 

Jack: Well, you know what she's been is a fugitive.
And when you say -- they say the defense is -- I guess we have a new defense  in murder trials, "I'm a soccer mom."  But, I tell you, you know, what she has done is she's compounded her felony.  She's committed new crimes. 

Bill: She's committed new crimes? 

Jack: Sure.
She's been a fugitive every day for 25 years. 

Ally: She's a fugitive, but I also think that time has to speak for itself.
I think that what she did a long time ago is wrong.
I think it was premeditated.
And I think it was a conspiracy.
But I also think, that, after 23 years of leading a life as an exemplary, it  should get her some leniency in the court system. 

Howie: But she should be punished. 

Ally: I think she should be punished. 

Howie: You don't think she should be punished? 

John: She didn't pull the trigger, right? 

Bill: Well, she didn't -- 

Howie: No, she was planting bombs -- she was supposedly planting bombs under 
-- 

Bill: Right. 

Ally: But it really comes down to the evidence, 'cause all they found was  stuff in the closet of her apartment. 

John: Let me ask you this -- 

Bill: Well, her prints are on the -- 

Jack: Does anyone here -- do we know the names of the victims?
You know, it amazes me that you can -- 

Bill: Well, there were no victims. 

Ally: There were no victims. 

Bill: But the bombs didn't go off. 

John: Well, that's what I'm getting at by asking whether or not she pulled  the trigger or whether or not the bombs blew anybody up. 

Howie: But what we're talking about now is for the courts to decide.
If she -- 

Bill: What I'm asking is, see, on the left -- she's on the left.
She was a hippie and a radical hippie. 

Jack: Right. 

Bill: Now, on the right, people like George W. Bush and Henry Hyde have said 
what they did were youthful indiscretion. 

Ally: Yeah, but you're talking about -- 

Bill: I know, I know, I know.
I know adultery is not the worst thing in the world, although, you would try  to get rid of a president for one, wouldn't you, Jack? 

Jack: Well, now, now, let me rebut that -- 

[ Laughter ] 

Bill: But they just can say -- wait a second.
If George Bush says, "Don't count what I did way back then, that was when I  was a child" -- he was 40.
Henry Hyde -- 

[ Laughter ]

Henry Hyde says it was youthful indiscretion. 

Jack: First of all, in this instance, you're talking about serious crimes -- 
whether they're murder, first-degree, second-degree, conspiracy, we don't  know.
I will say, Henry Hyde, when he was confronted with this, you know, the real  difference was integrity.
He came out within ten seconds and said, "Yeah, it's true." 

Bill: That's because -- 

[ Talking at the same time ] 

Howie: -- 'Cause they were catching him. 

Bill: That's integrity. 

Ally: Because they caught him.  He didn't come out and say, you know -- 

Bill: Within ten seconds of being caught red-handed, he came out. 

Jack: Contrast that with what Bill Clinton did, he stonewalled for nine  months. 

Howie: But, back to what the teacher did -- not what the teacher -- what the  woman did, you know, she has to pay -- she has to pay a price.
I don't know what that price is.
You know, as a parent, I was thinking about this when I was watching with my  kids.
If they do something wrong -- if my son comes to me one night and says, "You  know what, dad?
I burned down the school.
But, when I got home, I cleaned my room and made my bed."
You know.
He's done a lot of good after the -- 

[ Applause ] 

John: Yeah, but the question is, what kind of punishment.
You know, how hard?
I mean -- 

Bill: It should be hard.
Wait, go ahead. 

John: The way I'm thinking is this.
Is there any evidence that anyone was hurt directly through her actions as an  individual?
You know, was she an accomplice to something? 

Ally: There is circumstantial -- it's circumstantial evidence so far. 

Bill: Wait, wait, wait. 

Howie: She, apparently, allegedly, planted a bomb.
The bomb didn't go off. 

[ All talking at once ] 

Ally: No, she didn't.
They don't know that she did that. 

Bill: I believe the bomb did not go off -- 

[ All talking at once ] 

Bill: But they totally believe that she planted bombs under police cars. 

Ally: Yeah, but, all they have is circumstantial evidence.
And when it gets down to that, that's what would decide what her fate is.
Because, I mean, if she was -- I mean -- 

Howie: But, if she did -- I think the question that -- 

Ally: If she did, she should be punished.
But, I also think -- I mean, you have to look at prison.
I mean, is prison about reaffirmation or is it about punishment?
I mean, I think the woman should -- you know, she did a wrong against society.
She should have to pay for that. 

Jack: But, see, we're confusing apples and oranges.
She's entitled to her day in court whether innocent, guilty, what have you.
The issue is, whether what she has done in the intervening time is a plus or  a minus.
I say it's a huge minus because it amounts to new crimes.
And this business that somehow she's entitled to a defense, that she has led  an exemplary life, that has no relevance at all. 

John: Your point is she should've turned herself in every day since the time  she did not turn herself in, being a fugitive is an additional crime? 

Howie: As a tax payer, though, I don't wanna put somebody in prison and pay  for their meals and their room and board that's not a threat to me.
So -- 

Ally: But -- yeah, exactly. 

Bill: But, it's not about a threat, is it?
It's about the idea, that, if you did something, if it was a long time ago  that's a heinous crime -- 

Howie: I think she should be punished.
But punishment -- 

Ally: It was also a very different time.
You know? 

Bill: All right.
I have to take a break.
We'll be right back.
Sorry. 

Announcer: Join us tomorrow when our guests will be -- Robbie Robertson,  Sandra Bernhard, live's Ed Kowalczyk and Leah Andreone. 

[ Applause ] 

Bill: Okay.
I wanna ask you about this.
There's a big lawsuit going on in -- uh-oh, I think it's Connecticut.
I don't -- see? 

Jack: Alabama. 

Bill: Alabama?
Is that where -- okay.
See, they let me take off the tie, and I slip.
But this kid graduating from high school wanted to mention God in his -- 
thank God, and say we must yield to God in our lives in his commencement  address.
He was the number one kid in the high school.
And they wouldn't let him.
And, now, the family is suing.
And -- I don't know -- separation church and state? 

Ally: Yeah, his brother had actually tried to do it the year before in his  Valedictorian speech -- the Neidermeyer brothers. 

Bill: The Neidermeyers. 

Ally: The Neidermeyers or something. 

Bill: You know the Neidermeyer's? 

Jack: Let me go out on a limb.
I cannot imagine anything more disgraceful, un-American and anti-American than  telling any student what the content of his speech should be -- even leaving  aside the entire question of religious freedom.
I mean, we've come to define, in this society, free expression, in this  sterile way that no one should be able to say anything.
But, what pluralism means, what free expression started out meaning in this  country is that everybody should be free to say what they want. 

Bill: Is that a clip-on tie? 

John: Yeah, listen, I'm on -- 

[ Laughter ] 

Bill: I'm sorry. 

John: I'm on the advisory committee for the first amendment center of the  freedom forum.
And I'm an advocate for freedom of speech, freedom of press, religion, all of  those things.
But, in my opinion, based on what I heard about this thing, this guy -- this  young man, I guess, was really, as I understand it, Valedictorian is usually  chosen by his classmates or by the school or somebody -- 

Bill: I think it's because you're very high up in the rankings. 

John: Right. 

Bill: Yes. 

John: So, in my opinion, that person is, then, addressing the class or the  school in a semi-official capacity -- it's no Joe Citizen just speaking to  his buddy in the parking lot of the school about religious beliefs. 

Bill: Right.
And what if he wanted to thank Allah?
Would that sit so well with you? 

Jack: I mean, that's just -- there is nothing -- in America, you can fly any  flag you want, you can thank any God you want, you can worship any God you  want.
That's what America is about.
That's what education's about. 

Ally: Yeah, but there's a time and a place to do all that.
And, I think, if the young man was proselytizing and sitting up there and  espousing his religious beliefs to sort of sway a captive audience, I think  that that's wrong.
This Constitution also very clearly separated church from state.
And that is the most unique thing about this Constitution is that we don't  have religious figures in our government because it corrupted the governments  of Europe so long ago. 

Howie: He wasn't gonna preach.
He was -- they just didn't want him to mention -- right? 

Ally: No, he said that -- 

Bill: He wanted to thank God -- which, can't we save that for the Grammy's? 

Howie: No, but, he didn't -- 

Bill: You know what I mean? 

[ Laughter ]

Don't we get enough of that at awards shows? 

Howie: But they didn't want -- 

Bill: Like God's gonna be offended. 

Howie: They didn't want it mentioned, right?
They didn't want it -- 

Bill: They do not want it mentioned.
No. 

Howie: [ Bleep ]. 

[ Laughter ] 

[ Applause ] 

Bill: Howie. 

Jack: Legally -- 

Bill: Blundered into a -- 

Jack: From a legal standpoint, it's kind of a moot point because, if it it  goes up to the circuit court or to the Supreme Court, the case law is such  that, if a student initiates a religious act of his own volition, that's fine.
Now, if the school is doing it, that's where you have all of these -- that's  where, at least, some restrictions are permissible.
So, when this goes up, you will see that it's overturned. 

Bill: Okay.
As usual, Jack has all the answers, but they're wrong.
We will be right back in just a minute. 

Bill: Okay.
Well, President Clinton had the kids from the Columbine high school to the  White House today.
And, you know, since that horrible tragedy, the country has been brewing  about this moral vacuum we live in.
And I guess we do.
And the politicians, instead of doing anything real about it, like, you know,  making a gun law, they all talk about things like putting the ten  commandments in the school.
And all the politicians who are running, all, of course, listen to the same  pollsters who take the same polls.
And, so, what you get is Gore and Bush sounding exactly alike.
Now, bush -- now, Gore, here, has talked about a partnership between church  and state and including religious leaders in his policy making decisions, I  assume, to -- 

Howie: I think that's -- I think there should be a separation between church  and state.
And I don't think the church is necessarily the most moral place in the  world. 

Bill: No. 

Howie: You know. 

Jack: There's nothing wrong with Gore doing it.
But, I'll tell you, in the case of Al Gore, I mean, he's just, basically what  he's doing now -- the campaign is desperate -- he's running around the  country on an almost -- 

Bill: Desperate? 

Jack: Desperate in the sense that -- 

Bill: It's a year and a half before the election.
How could anybody be desperate? 

Jack: Bill, they are -- 

[ Laughter ]

Gore -- Gore is pandering on an almost daily basis. 

Bill: Oh, Gore is pandering. 

John: I live in Tennessee.
I know Al Gore.
I like Al Gore.
He's from there.
He was brought up with religion.
Pandering because he's suggesting that he's going to listen to the religious  -- you know, I'm -- as far as I'm concerned, all religions are a different  version of a new Guinea cargo plane cult to some extent.
I have no ax to grind with respect to religion. 

[ Laughter ]

But, the point is that, if we listen to academics, if we listen to business  leaders, I don't see anything wrong listening to people who are "of the  cloth," so to speak, provided they have a tolerance towards other faiths, as  well, and they're not being unduly listened to as, in my opinion, the GOP  currently is. 

[ All talking at once ] 

John: I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea that Gore says, "I  would like to have the input of religious leaders."
That doesn't mean necessarily that his decisions are going to be -- 

Bill: But why can't faith be totally private?
Shouldn't it be? 

John: That's my preference.
I think it's a personal -- 

Bill: I don't understand why any of them have to make this -- 

Ally: I think it should be totally separate, because think when you're -- 

John: You got a lot of lambs out there being led by certain people who  presume to speak for millions on end. 

Bill: That's the exact point -- 

John: The man in Rome is one of them, you know. 

Ally: But that's the problem.
I mean, applying your moral template to anyone else will only get you into  trouble.
And that's why there is such a clear division of state and church in this  country. 

John: I'm in favor of church and state, but, then again -- 

Jack: This country was founded by -- this country was founded by religious 
leaders. 

Bill: No, it wasn't!
Stop saying that!
I hate when they say -- does anybody know about George Washington's religion?
When you say Washington, does anybody -- "Oh, yeah, right, religious guy"?
Lincoln, what was he?
Does anyone -- think, do you have any association with any religion to these  founding fathers? 

Jack: Here's what we have to get away from. 

Bill: Wait a second.
Answer the question. 

[ Laughter ]

It was not founded by religious people.
It was founded by people getting away from religion. 

Ally: Oppression. 

Bill: No.
Did I not go to school and here this? 

Jack: Bill, faith was a part of the foundation of the nation.
It's not something -- 

Ally: Faith is a part of everything. 

Howie: Many different things. 

Ally: Many different things. 

Howie: But not one particular faith. 

Ally: Right. 

Howie: And if you're going to take -- you know, when Gore talks about taking  the word or some ideas from the church, who, specifically, is he talking  about?
Who is -- 

[ Talking at the same time ] 

John: Who is everybody? 

Howie: Who's gonna -- ?
That's not what he's talking about.
Who, specifically, is going to be the church. 

Jack: It is not right to invoke the specter of the state church every time  you have a political leader who suggests -- be he Republican or Democrat --  that he wants to cooperate with religious leaders to, you know, work on the  National Agenda.
There's nothing illegitimate about that. 

Bill: But the government shouldn't have anything to do with it.
The government should fix the roads and -- 

Ally: Right, but isn't that, I mean, in who you are anyway?
I mean, if you're a Catholic, if you're Jewish, you will be swayed by your  beliefs that you grew up with.
I don't understand what this public espousal of, like, "Oh, I'm now going to  involve church."
It doesn't matter.
You have your beliefs. 

Howie: Cooperate with the people. 

Ally: With the people -- it's about the -- 

Bill: Yes, and, Jack, what happened to the Republicans who saw the  government, as, you know, a plumber?
They fix our sink.
Right?
Let them fix the sink, and stay out of our private lives.
Isn't that what you hear Ronald Reagan was all about? 

Jack: Look, you know -- 

Bill: Stay out of our lives.
Just do your little jobs.
And let's make your job as small as possible.
'Cause, when you try to do other jobs, you do a crappy version of it. 

Jack: What I -- the point I was making is that, Gore -- there's nothing 
sincere about what Gore is saying.
I mean, today -- 

Bill: Well, I agree with that. 

John: He's able to crawl into that guy's head? 

Jack: Gore is running around the country.
I mean, today he spoke to the NAACP.
He told them exactly what they wanted to hear. 

[ All talking at once ] 

Jack: They've taken it to a new level.
I mean, Hillary Clinton is on a listening tour.
What that means is she's gonna go up to upstate New York.
She's gonna hear exactly what they want.
She's gonna digest it -- 

Bill: So who do you want for president, and what is he doing different?
How would you separate -- who's your candidate? 

Jack: George W. Bush. 

Bill: George W. Bush.
And he is -- he is just -- he's bullworth.
He's just laying it right out there. 

[ Laughter ] 

John: He may take all that money and run off to Ecuador.
He doesn't have to run for anything. 

Bill: Well, right. 

Jack: He has an agenda. 

Bill: His agenda is to get more money.
It's the most cynical campaign I've ever seen.
It's, "Get all the money now, we'll buy the voters later.
Let's just get the money now." 

Jack: There's a lot of envy with George W. Because he is, frankly, the first  Republican in a long time that has fashioned an ideology that brings the  party together. 

Bill: He's the first Republican in a long time who ever partied, and that's  why I might vote for him.
Okay, we have take a commercial. 

Bill: First of all, Howie, I was so excited to see you, I forgot to mention,  you're at the Montreal Comedy Festival -- this weekend? 

Howie: Yes, I am.
Yes, I am.
I'm feelin' festive, and I'm not even there yet.
I'm going to a festival. 

Bill: All right.
If you never saw him at a festival, it's -- 

Howie: You gotta come to a festival to see me. 

Bill: Okay. 

[ Laughter ]

No, I wanna ask you about this.
There's a big article in the paper today about cell phones, of which people  are getting very fed up.
And I am one of them.
Because they used to be just for emergencies.
I mean, I have one.
We probably all have one.
76 million people now have them.
So you're not special any more. 

[ Laughter ]

'Cause people like pretend, "Oh, I'm a big shot."
Well, you're not -- 

[ Cell Phone Ringing ] 

[ Laughter ] 

Howie: I'm sorry. 

Bill: See this is -- 

Howie: Go on. 

Bill: This is -- 

Howie: Go on with your -- I'm sorry.
Hello? 

[ Laughter ]

Yeah. 

Bill: See, this is the point -- 

Howie: I'm right in the middle of "Politically Incorrect." 

[ Laughter ] 

Jack: There's a time and a place for everything. 

Bill: -- Is that people are at restaurants, they're at theaters -- 

Howie: One second. 

[ Laughter ] 

[ Applause ] 

Bill: See, if they would speak in those kind of hush tones, but people seem  to yell into them.
And now there's this backlash of saying, "Take it outside."
I'm for it.
Anyone? 

Jack: You know, I hear you, Bill, but I have to -- 

[ Laughter ] 

Bill: You can't even agree with me on that. 

Jack: Sure, it's offensive, but, you know, it's part and parcel of this  culture of not wanting to offend anyone about anything.
I mean, it ties into free speech.
It ties into what we were talking about earlier, you know, that -- 

John: It's rudeness as far as I'm concerned.
That's the society we live in, the manners have gone out the door.
I mean, I'm a rock 'n' roller, and manners are not number one on my list of  concerns.
But, I think -- 

[ Laughter ]

I don't think I wanna hear people yakking and squawking. 

Bill: Right. 

Howie: You know, I used to carry a megaphone.
And this is so much more polite. 

[ Laughter ] 

Bill: And you were born to be dialed. 

Jack: The culprit has become hypersensitive. 

Bill: We have a show tomorrow, folks.
We'll have Robbie Robertson -- I'm sure you're aware of his fabulous work -- 
Sandra Bernhard, live's Ed Kowalczyk and Leah Andreone.
Okay. 

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  Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher       ©1999 Follow Up Productions