*** Log file opened: 9/7/97 12:02:37

QuietWaters - Ok...guess I'll get started.

QuietWaters - The week's lesson covered a few areas.

QuietWaters - The following is from the book "To Ride A Silver Broomstick" by Silver RavenWolf:

QuietWaters - "Just about every magickal text in print devotes at least one page, maybe even two, to a short discussion on magickal ethics. They give you the Rule of Three, and basically tell you that negative magick is a no-no, end of lecture. Is it really that cut and dried?

QuietWaters - Nope. For the record, the Rule of Three follows:

QuietWaters - Ever mind the Rule of Three

QuietWaters - Three times what thou givest returns to thee.

QuietWaters - This lesson well, thou must learn,

QuietWaters - Thee only gets what thou dost earn!

QuietWaters - On the surface, it seems like a relatively simple concept to grasp, doesn't it? Do something good for another person and it comes back to you three-fold. Do a nasty, and you get zapped worse than the effect of what you originally did. This doesn't necessarily mean that three bad things will happen to you. Just one very bad thing could happen instead, in the magnitude of a three-time zap. So what's so hard about that?

QuietWaters - When one first begins working in magick, things fall under the exceptionally neat headings of Right and Wrong, simply because your magickal capabilities, knowledge, and expertise are limited to the basic fundamentals.

QuietWaters - However, as your skills progress the line between right and wrong has a tendancy to blur; unless, of course, you are a Saint (which to be honest with you, is less than likely).

QuietWaters - Determining the boundaries becomes progressively more difficult as your capabilities strengthen. You may make mistakes -- some very big ones -- and thing may be complicated until you work them out.

QuietWaters - I'm going to throw out the next part..which talks about Karma..then open this to discussion/questions.

QuietWaters - Again, from Silver RavenWolf's book, To Ride A Silver Broomstick:

QuietWaters - All things are drawn to you (or you are drawn to them) for a specific purpose. If you find yourself in a really tough spot, try to logically determine, as best you can, why this is happening to you. Here is where your skills are needed.

QuietWaters - By using divination, astral projection, protection magick, etc., you may at least be able to make a dent in the situation and stall for time until you come to a satisfying solution.

QuietWaters - Common sense and wisdom should never play second fiddle to your magickal powers.

QuietWaters - ....Karma does not exist to be used as the easiest road in times of crisis.

QuietWaters - It exists bring things into balance, yes, but the Universe does not revolve around this doctrine as the one and only rule. There are others. Cause and effect are important, but not everything.

QuietWaters - You are here to learn many lessons, but you are also around to assist others in accomplishing their goals and lessons, as well.

QuietWaters - Not every situation you encounter is a result of the law of Karma. Not every difficulty you are involved in is a result of Karmic backlash. Likewise, no every person you meet is really someone you have known well or dealt with before.

QuietWaters - ok...finished. That was another view not included in the lesson.

QuietWaters - Comments and/or questions?

Stardancer - I guess sometimes we blame karma when we shouldn't.

spiritTalker is trying to read all that

Ravendancer is still trying to wake up

Ravendancer - :)

Xero didn't catch it all and is suffering lag...

Xero - =)

Xero - Is there any time when we "shouldn't" blame Karma, tho?

mh - The three-fold law states that we receive good or bad three-fold?

Ravendancer - when WE make the mistake

spiritTalker - I would say from what I just read that we tend to blame Karma too much

QuietWaters - Both, mh. If you put out good, you get back good. The same for bad.

Xero - good point... however Karma could be blamed for us making the mistake in the first place...

Stardancer - yep agree spiritTalker

Ravendancer - but then again, when we blame karma.........................

Ravendancer - we then know that it's responsible, and most of the time we set about to turn it around

Ravendancer - so good comes from it anyway

mh - Is it ok if our motivation for doing good is to get it back three times, or will that not 'work'?

spiritTalker - that won't work mh

QuietWaters - Maybe, Ravendancer. On the other hand, perhaps some might use karma as an excuse to do nothing.

spiritTalker - at least not in my experience

mh - it must be pure?

Ravendancer - true Quiet

SevenEagle - we have several questions out out once, lets try to get them as they come up :-)

Dream has left IRC

mh - ok

purple-away-back-soon-noon is now known as purple

purple thinks karma is instant

SevenEagle - do we need to address what Stardancer said first? then go down the line?

Ravendancer - sometimes it is

spiritTalker - mh ok here is what I saw when you asked that laugh if you must but I saw a kid taking out the trash just once so he can get his allowance or a cookie the kid doesn't really want to take out the trash he just does it cause he wants the cookie

SevenEagle - as the questions came?

spiritTalker - oh yes sorry 7

spiritTalker shuts up

Stardancer just had a comment :)

Stardancer - not a question

SevenEagle - yes, but left if open to discussion

SevenEagle - Stardancer - I guess sometimes we blame karma when we shouldn't.

SevenEagle - any comments on this? or do we move the the second question/statement?

mh - so we really need to take an 'activist' approach in our life instead of letting karma happen to us?

purple - lessons and karm

purple - are different

spiritTalker is goign to listen now

mh - Indecision is a decision

Ravendancer - karma isn't a very good thing to be ruled by.......

mh - Inaction is an action

purple - but you can never really know if something is good or bad till after the fact

SevenEagle - karma can also be the catylist for the lesson not learned, to be learned

Stardancer - taking responsibility for our own actions is best

Stardancer - to me anyway

mh - I don't totally agree purple

Ravendancer - all good points

mh - We need some kinds of guides for what is 'good' and what is 'bad'

Ravendancer - no

mh - and I am hoping that these lessons with teach some of those guides

spiritTalker - there is a very fine line between "good" and "bad"

Ravendancer - because despite the xtian ideal, bad must exisst along w/good

Stardancer - I think we all know what is right or wrong, from our hearts

spiritTalker - if you even believe in good and bad

purple - yes

mh - I think harm with malice is bad

mh - I think that connects into last week's lesson

Stardancer - agree

purple - intent is part but not all

Stardancer - yep the ripple effect

Ravendancer - example:

Ravendancer - I live in an apt. complex that used to have a forest to the East of it.

Ravendancer - last year they came and bulldozed it all down :(

mh - :(

QuietWaters - :(

Ravendancer - but this year I find all kinds of wildflowers have sprung up in the forest's place

Ravendancer - it's quite beautiful

purple - yes thats what i meant

Stardancer - :)

SevenEagle - so do we also want to tie this question in with this topic? Xero - Is there any time when we "shouldn't" blame Karma, tho?

mh - When we have a chance to act and we don't

spiritTalker - I think we can blame "murphy's law" a lot

mh - when we can intervene

Ravendancer - mma LadyLoneWolf

mh - I have an example:

LadyLoneWolf - MM everyone :)

_Lisa_ - MM LLW :)

mh - My son had a diagnosis of autism at 3. I found interventions for it. It was a strain and tough. Yet I intervened

mh - Now he is doing very well

mh - But another parent decided that the diagnosis was fate. So her son is now quite disabled

spiritTalker - this is where my confusion comes in

mh - If I would have said, "This is karma," then I'd have a very disabled child

spiritTalker - knowing you can act and knowing the consequences of those actions if you don't act are you actually acting?

Ravendancer - yes

SevenEagle - karma isn't there to hurt us, or to hold us back, but to learn from and release the "bad" karma

Stardancer - yes, you are doing nothing

spiritTalker - but why woudl you know how to act if you aren't supposed to?

Ravendancer - how would you know you aren't supposed to act until after the fact?

mh - You need to take the risk

spiritTalker - you just know RD

spiritTalker sighs not having said that well

Stardancer - ask for guidance

SevenEagle - I always take an active role in what happens to and for me, that is our free will, we do not have to except anything, but can change things for the better

mh - I agree totally 7!

Ravendancer - agreed

purple - i dont think karma is external, i see that a choice changes who we are , that is why i ssay karma is instant, we do it to ourselfs

mh - Then Karma does not equal inaction

purple - then who we are draw things or passes them by

spiritTalker - but if change is better for us yet hurts someone else is it worth it?

mh - Exercising our free will can be part of karma

mh - do you have an example, spirit?

spiritTalker - actually I do

mh - ok

SevenEagle - in a sense spiritTalker, any good we do for ourselves, should not hurt another, I guess it depends on what you are saying...

spiritTalker - in a strange sort of way

Ravendancer nods to 7

spiritTalker - ok you want a job very badly you need a job very badly so you go to apply for a job from a place you know a friend works at

spiritTalker - now you get a job but since they hired you now they have to lay off a friend of yours

Stardancer - hmmmmm

spiritTalker - so in essence by getting that job you hrut your friend

Ravendancer - you didn't know they'd have to lay off someone else.

mh - You didn't go into that as your intention right?

spiritTalker - no but you see what I am saying

mh - And are you *sure* that is the reason that the friend is getting laid off?

SevenEagle - if you asked for god/dess will to be done, and got the job, you didn't nothing wrong

spiritTalker nods

spiritTalker - and yes I knew if they hired someone else someone would have to be let go

mh - 7, I don't know

Ravendancer - query:

mh - that sounds very xtian, 7

Ravendancer - if they'd only have to lay off someone else...why did they hire you?

spiritTalker - dunno

spiritTalker shrugs

SevenEagle - ok, maybe we can tie this in with what mh had asked, the three fold, good or bad returned...

Stardancer: no problem QW :)

SevenEagle - if the example was you used magick to get the job, and it hurt another, that could be considered "bad" being returned

Stardancer - an you harm none, do what you will.

spiritTalker - but is not every action we do tied to magick in some way?

spiritTalker - ie personal magick

Ravendancer - hek no

Stardancer - no

spiritTalker - hmmmmmmmm

spiritTalker sees it differently

Ravendancer - most of what we do is mundane

SevenEagle - there is a difference in using magick to "get" something, and in helping others

mh - the three-fold law only applies to magick?

SevenEagle - no

mh - where does it apply?

Ravendancer - to all things

SevenEagle - can apply it to all of your life

spiritTalker - I would say to everything

onmyown would comment briefly.......

Stardancer - everything

Ravendancer - go for 't omo

SevenEagle - ok omo :-)

spiritTalker listens

onmyown - the three-fold law applies to all actions...it is tied to our individual Karma

onmyown - our Karma is a reflection of our actions and intents from the mundane to the spirutual

onmyown - it is inescapable and ubiquitious in that regard

Ravendancer has a big question when omo is done

onmyown - however, intent is of primary concern.....

onmyown - since this basically destines the effect of any and all Karmic returns

onmyown - acts, in and of themselves, are just that

onmyown - much more significant, and due some good thought, always is the intent of those acts

Stardancer - agree

spiritTalker nods

onmyown - Raven? you had a comment/

Ravendancer - question actually :)

Ravendancer - but not aimed at you omo

Ravendancer - I believe I asked this last time but I cannot recall the answer...

Ravendancer - would being the executor of karma bring on you bad karma or good karma?

Ravendancer - example:

Ravendancer - suppose there is a certain amoeba disguised as a human...

Ravendancer - a child molester, a bully, and perhaps even a murderer...

Ravendancer - probably, in fact.

spiritTalker has a good example when RD is done

Ravendancer - if I were to hunt him down and slit his throat joyfully...knowing beyond a doubt that he'd earned this karma.......

Ravendancer - would that bring bad or good on me?

Ravendancer - knowing that I'd probably stopped him from terrorizing more ppl

Ravendancer - hurting more, even killing more

SevenEagle - well.....

SevenEagle - first he is an eternal being, so maybe didn't stop his future actions

SevenEagle - and yes, you will have bad returned taking someones life, and spending time in jail

spiritTalker - bad reason:you should try to help this one overcome the reason behind his actions to begin with

SevenEagle - unless, it was self defense

Stardancer - why would you feel it your obligation to kill them? instead of getting law assistance?

Ravendancer - suppose the law has proven useless?

Ravendancer - suppose he'd bullied ppl into lying for him?

Ravendancer - suppose even the police looked the other way?

purple - about justice you mean

spiritTalker - may I give my example/dream?

Ravendancer - yes

spiritTalker - I think it may shed some light

spiritTalker - ok

spiritTalker - I choose this nick for a reason

spiritTalker - this is an example of why

spiritTalker - I started to meditate and was met by a young Indian boy

spiritTalker - he said come with me I wish to show you somethng

spiritTalker - I walked with this boy and he took me to a grove of trees

spiritTalker - in this grove was a wolf and a squirrel

spiritTalker - the wolf was trying to catch the squirrel

Ravendancer - mm jj

spiritTalker - the squirrel was trying to get away

spiritTalker - now the boy asked me what will you do?

spiritTalker - I considered this question

spiritTalker - I had a sandwich and a bag of nuts

spiritTalker - if I helped the squirrel then the wolf would starve

spiritTalker - if I helped the wolf then the squirrel would die

spiritTalker - if I did nothing then perhaps one would die

spiritTalker - however If I helped them both I myself would go without

spiritTalker - which should I choose?

spiritTalker - I choose to help them both

spiritTalker - my vision then ended

onmyown comments....

QuietWaters - This, I think, ties in with what Ravendancer said. Sometimes chosing for the greater good of all means you go without...or take the consequences upon yourself.

Stardancer - that's like on those nature shows where the camera people don't do anything about what is happening, maybe animals dying or whatever, it is not their position to upset the balance in nature (although it sure bothers me)

LadyLoneWolf nods

onmyown - this is the perpetual quandry.....

LadyLoneWolf - it does me too.. and the kids ask why they don't help the animals.. sometimes it's hard to explain

Ravendancer - so my amoeba should die?

spiritTalker - the whole point was to show me I had a choice

Ravendancer - k

spiritTalker - maybe not one I saw clearly

onmyown - although it is truly not a quandry, given that we have free choice in our actions

purple - i think nature is 'perfect' interfereing with the natural balance is usually a mistake

just_jersey - I agree purple..is it really our place to fool around with the balance of nature?

QuietWaters - Only you would know that, Ravendancer. Would you being willing to take the consequences of your action?

LadyLoneWolf - and yet we interfer with nature everyday

QuietWaters - Ok...let's let omo finish...sorry, omo.

Ravendancer - could be, Quiet

spiritTalker - yes continue OMO

onmyown - given that we have free choice, our responsibility it to consider the results of our actions.....

onmyown - it's as simple (and complex) as that..

Ravendancer - agreed

onmyown - since many of our actions are taken in haste, without forethought

onmyown - regardless, all of those actions imply some karmic return

onmyown - some may be well defined and well regarded actions

Stardancer - agree

onmyown - however, Individually we do not determine the Karmic effect

spiritTalker nods

onmyown - overall it is determined in the length and breadth of total events

Ravendancer - agreed

onmyown - one drop of water doesn't make a rain storm

QuietWaters - Nope...but it could cause the bucket to overflow...

Stardancer - yep

spiritTalker - yep

mh - so karma is a 'system'?

spiritTalker - I tend to look at Karma like Murphy's Law no matter what you do you can't get away from it

onmyown - true enough, but by the same token, it is the multitude of those drops that manifest the whole

QuietWaters - yup

SevenEagle - on to magick QW?

QuietWaters - Just thinking the same thing, Eagle. Anyone want to answer mh's question first?

spiritTalker forgot the question

onmyown - Certainly s -

SevenEagle - would have to define system first

onmyown - yes mh, it is a system if you conceive of it as such....

mh - system - an interconnected set of actions

onmyown - in as much as it consists of a series of events

onmyown - each having its own reaction and (perhaps) canceling reaction

onmyown - since it is an ongoing process, then balance does not occur, as such

onmyown - nor can it be predetermined within a finite time

QuietWaters - Let's move on...we can take this topic back to cyberwitch. :)

Ravendancer - k :)

spiritTalker - k

QuietWaters - The next section of the lesson was about magic(k). What do you think magic(k) is?

LadyLoneWolf listens

Xero - Supernatural powers harnessed to do the bidding of a mortal/immortal entity

QuietWaters - I'd like to hear what you all think it is rather than sit here and lecture...lol.

Xero - ?

spiritTalker - Magic(k) surrounds us flows through us and is present in everything

QuietWaters - So you don't see magic as being natural, Xero?

Stardancer - combining personal power with universal power for an effect

Xero - ...and has different forms, such as white magic, red magic, green magic, blue magic, black magic...

spiritTalker - grey

Xero - Well... it depends...

Ravendancer - magick is the ability to work on a nonmundane level

Xero - if you take mubdane as natural, then it would indeed be supernatural...

Xero - mundane, sorry

Xero - However, you could take life itself as a kind of magic

purple - i see majic as being like a standind wave ...like velcro what you want sticks, more specific though like an anti body

spiritTalker - I do not see Magic(k) as supernatural

Ravendancer - mundane as physical, line-being-shortest-distance-between-two-points

Xero - and this, maybe Nature, in itself, is parallel to magic...

Ravendancer - that kind of mundane :)

Xero - heheh

Xero - =)

Ravendancer: )

QuietWaters - Anyone else like give their definition of magic?

Ravendancer glances around

QuietWaters - Ok, omo...you're on...

onmyown - feels compelled to add a bit

spiritTalker - a definition hmmmmm well i suppose the best definition I can give is it is energy

spiritTalker shrugs

Xero - but energy can be used to define almost anything

Xero - (Well, except matter, of course ;)

spiritTalker - energy is in everythng

Ravendancer - but matter is energy

onmyown - i cannot accept the concept that magic is not part of the natural experience

spiritTalker agrees with OMO

Xero - matter and energy work in parallel... to blur the line, you have to go down to an infinitesimal level...

Ravendancer wails to the heavens and beats her chest!!!

Ravendancer - I've got to fly,, y'all :((((

onmyown - Xero, we aren't talking particle physics here

spiritTalker looks at RD

Xero - Cya Raven

spiritTalker - MP and be well RD

Xero - hehe, sorry omo... I kinda got carried away

just_jersey - MP Raven

Ravendancer - it's been a great lesson

Xero - =)

QuietWaters - MP Ravendancer...thanks for participating. :)

Ravendancer - look forward to reading the log later :)

Ravendancer - mmpmma y'all

Ravendancer dances lithely to the window, spreads her vast, shining black wings, and soars off into the Night, leaving a faint cawing sound behind...

Ravendancer [ident@modem52.cyberlink-inc.com] has left #afterfive

SevenEagle: *Ravendancer* Thanks for coming, bye, come back again soon, love and light to you!!!

onmyown - Magic is the depth of our souls.....

Stardancer likes that omo

Xero - I think a "force" may be a better description than Energy...

QuietWaters - :)

onmyown - it makes our heart beat so ever much more on the sight of a golden sunset

onmyown - or a grey dawn

onmyown - or the touch of a loved one

Xero - Nicely put, omo...

onmyown - it is a primary power most have chosen to ignore

Xero - Many things are chosen to be ignored, sadly...

onmyown - it is that ability to communicate with the World in a way most have forgotten

Stardancer - yep and just taking the simple things

purple - i think that while most 'ignire ' t on the surface many are aware of it just below ie those who turn their hear when you talk about them etc....

onmyown - It need not be taken on with the trappings of ceremony and dress

spiritTalker - look at a child sometime totally lost in watching something for hours at a time, that is Magic(k)

onmyown - (no offense to those that desire to do so)

Stardancer - for sure ST

onmyown - I merely mean it is innate, and all needs be done is connect to it

Stardancer - yep

spiritTalker - yep

just_jersey - agrees

onmyown: i'm done

Stardancer - does anyone else have a Book of Shadows?

spiritTalker has one in her head

LadyLoneWolf - I am working on mine.. slowly but surely

Stardancer - and what sort of things do you put in it LLW?

LadyLoneWolf - oh goodness.. lots of things.. notes about what I am reading.. lessons, dreams, ideas to pursue, questions I need answered

arch-man - hey!

LadyLoneWolf - MM arch-man

Stardancer - very good, because a Book of Shadows contains our thoughts, rituals, spells and whatever we choose...

spiritTalker - greetings Arch-Man

Stardancer - a private place for all things

LadyLoneWolf nods

spiritTalker - why its in my head hehehe

LadyLoneWolf - yep, I draw pictures in there too.

Stardancer - I also have a Mirror book that is very private, poems deep thoughts etc.

Stardancer - so everyone is familiar with the Book of Shadows?

spiritTalker - yep

arch-man - got to go,be back real soon

LadyLoneWolf - what is the difference between a mirror book, and a Book of Shadows?

Stardancer - to me The Book of Shadows may be shared, but the Mirror book is personal private....

Stardancer - has hopes dreams, whatever, more like a diary....

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spiritTalker - a Mirror book to me is what you share with others from your personal experiences ie the opposite of StarDancer

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Stardancer - the Mirror book is to be a mirror of self

Stardancer - (to me) :)

spiritTalker - :)

spiritTalker - thats my book of Shadows kinda Stardancer

LadyLoneWolf - then perhaps I have to two combined

Stardancer - but however you choose to keep them are up to you

spiritTalker - yep

Stardancer - you may not even want a Mirror book

Stardancer - ok omo

onmyown - In historical context a Grimoire is a personal record, not to be shared, and in fact quite hidden

onmyown - probably for reasons of possible persecution

onmyown - considering our current enlightened (??) society....

Stardancer - :)

onmyown - that is not entirely necessary

spiritTalker would never give out what is in her book of shadows

spiritTalker - not unless I felt compelled to

onmyown - regardless, it is a personal journal

Stardancer - yes

LadyLoneWolf - I find if I write things down, they stay with me longer

spiritTalker - LLW that is what I consider my Mirror Book

Stardancer - think so

spiritTalker - I think we are about finished

spiritTalker - :)

LadyLoneWolf smiles

onmyown - about wrapped up QuietWaters

Stardancer - we could take up any other discussions in cyberwitch

QuietWaters - Ok...thanks to everyone for participating. From what I saw, it was a great class. :)

*** Log file closed: 9/7/97 13:35:17