From: cluster.user@yale.edu (Cluster User)
Subject: Re: Caucasoid Turks/Bulgars
Date: 09 Apr 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <370e77ea.60462860@news.yale.edu>
References: <369E3BE1.5C45@sbu.ac.uk> <77li2j$qi0$1@whisper.globalserve.net> <369F52FE.2B6@sbu.ac.uk> <77rc86$auj$1@brokaw.wa.com> <36A444B3.F3B70F1C@alum.mit.edu.-> <7827sb$269$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A52D70.9E372DD2@alum.mit.edu.-> <36A556AB.9927BD29@montclair.edu> <36a63533.58309714@news.yale.edu> <7866ud$i9m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cdb21e.883120019@news.wxs.nl> <36A7FCC8.79790A6B@earthlink.net> <36d77e23.1000882888@news.wxs.nl> <36a8d455.81661202@news.yale.edu> <78pl3c$84o@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b0dc2f.3434839@news.yale.edu> <78v30o$vl6@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <36b34d7c.60430113@news.yale.edu> <794e84$4iq@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <3744d12a.1873763068@news.wxs.nl> <796m95$eq2@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <375c0ea6.1954957123@news.wxs.nl> <79fo99$qkl@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <370296ad.69443734@news.yale.edu> <7dvofs$ai0@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> <370a6f59.1892451@news.yale.edu> <7efi7l$trh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Organization: Yale University
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.anthropology,sci.lang

vassil karloukovski communicated to me:

>
>************************************
>In the Nominalia about Kormisosh is said: "This prince replaced/changed 
>the clan Doulo, that is Vihtoun."  
>
>The word Vihtoun was unclear, but Dobrev links it to the persian 
>(middle-perisan?) "vih" (right, noble), "vih den" (goof faith, right 
>faith) [Sredne-iranskie jazIki, p. 56]. Also the pamirian "vih" (wise) 
>and "tun" (clan). 
>
>That is Kormisosh usurpted the power from its rightful holders - the Dulo 
>clan. Apparently a degradation in the central authority followed, because 
>after Kormisosh several khans reigned for few years, some of them traitors: 
>khan Vineh reigned for 7 years after which he was deposed by one party of 
>boljars;  next, khan Telec ruled for 3 years and died in a battle agains 
>the byzantines; khan Sabin was accused in treason and found refuge in 
>Constantinople, Oumor, another Byzantine protege reinged for 40 days 
>only, after him another traitor - Pagan, was killed by the boilas, 
>followed by 10 years of intercine fights and decline.
>
>About the clan of Vokil (Oukil) there was also some iranian correspondence, 
>can't remember it now. Also about the ruling clan Doulo - it mean 
>"ruler" or "appointed to rule", something of that kind.

yes. hung. gyula. this seems to be the accepted meaning, but I don't
know its etymology.

>
>**************
>
>The names of the four bulgar tribes in the armenian geography 
>"Ashkharacujc": kupi-bulgar, kuchi-bulgar, onogkhontor-blgar and 
>chdar-bolkar: "kupi" after Kuphis (Kuban), "kuchi" after Kocho (Dnjepr, 
>in Constantinus Porphirogentus). But the onogkhondor (the onogurs, 

onog~ur is a typical altaic, especially turkic tribal name.
on - og~ur i.e. ten og~ur. og~ur has parallels in turkic
og~uz (i.e. *og~ur2 > og~uz), uyg~ur and the "on oq" (ten
arrow) nation - the eastern tu"rku"t name for the western
tu"rku"t - possibly a popular etymology for og~uz / og~ur,
with r/r2/z as a collective.

beyond turkic, and even altaic, are the uralic ugrians.
boodberg in an article sees an ancient name for "bull".

I noticed in the russian rendition of hungary, vengriya,
a possible continuation of volgabulghar wa:n for
common turkic "on".

a number + tribal name (possibly representing subdivisions)
is also a familiar pattern in turkic. toquz tatar (9 tatar), 
on oq, toquz og~uz (9 og~uz, probably another name for the
uyg~urs, nayman (mongol for "9", a division of the turkic 
qazaqs).


thus onog~ur presents nothing unusual in turkic.

>unogindurs) according to Dobrev denoted the central, inner tribe - the 
>sumer, accadian UNUKKU (the central part of the state), the bulgar 
>*onogon, ongol as evident from the preserved in the region of the 
>former volga bulgaria word ONGO (inner circle) (no references!). 
>The ending -dor = in the pamirian, celtic l-s it serves to form possesive 
>forms. The other tribe CHDAR denoted the periferal regions - SDHA, SHIDA 
>in ancient Georgia, SHIDAR (side, adj.) in persian, in some l-s of
>Hindu Kush. 
>
>The chdar-bolkars were situated according to Dobrev in Eastern Dagestan, 
>aside from the other tribes. The onogkhandor-blgar - in central 
>(central-western) fortified part of the Caucasus - Balkaria, Cherkesia 
>(the Khumarin fortress, the building material for which had to be brought 
>from a 100-150 km distance). It was from where the Vanandians left for 
>Armenia, and from where Asparukh run away later. And also where were the 
>later "black bulgars" of the oldest son of Kubrat - Batbajan. The
>X c. persian geography Hudud al-Alam says about them: "These bulgars are 
>mountainers. They possess fields and large numbers of cattle". 
>
>************************
> 
>Another observation: there are the clan names Dulo, Ermi, Vokil (Oukil) 
>and Ugain in the Nominalia. Ermiar, Kubiar, Chakarar, Kjurigir, ...duar 
>(*Barduar?) in inscriptions of the khans Omurtag and Malamir. Dobrev 
>found names as Djulel, Senar, Chakar, Dular in russian, caucasian 
>sources connected with the bulgars living in the caucasus. Thus, 
>this -ar probably formed a collective form:
>

yes. this is well established in turkic (and altaic). 
the common turkic -lar (the -l- is regarded as a later development).
-z (< *-r2) found in plural pronominal suffixes and pronouns.
-z and -r found in tribal names. "tatar" (originally subject
mongols) < tat (foreigner) + ar (collective), qIrqIz ( > qIrg~Iz, 
from qIrq "forty"), see above for more.

mongol also has an -r plural (for people).

tungus tribal suffix -gir (which may be relavent as to why many 
have -g- as well.

> Dulo - Dular
> Ermi - Ermiar
> Chakar - Chakarar
> Kupi (Kupi-bulgar) - Kubiar
>
>Same as one person of Lezgin origin is called lezgi, while the whole 
>people - lezgiar. Dargi - dargiar. Shina - shinar, khov - khovar in the 

this is indeed interesting. it may represent a loan, a distant
relationship or coincidence.

>Pamirs. Same as BOILA - BOILAR, leading to the later BOLJAR; KHONSA 

boylar is indeed interesting, as it may represent an -r turkic
plural corresponding to common turkic -lar, but without the -l-.

>(a thief) - KHUSAR (lightly armed horseman, a scout); the modern 

xusar may have come from "xazar" (the khazars). in fact, some have
argued that the -z- in "xazar" was originally -s-.

>bulg. CHUKA (a rocky peak) - CHUKAR (the same).
>
>Thus probably there were two forms of the ethnicon - B@LGAR and B@LG, 
>and it wasn't incorrect when the armenian accounts gave the short form:
>
>"The following people live in Sarmatia - khazars, BULKHs (bulkhi), 
>barsils, apshegs, apkhazes,... alans, 53 peoples in total." 
>[K. Patkanov. Armjanskaja geografija sed'mogo veka po Rozhdenija Khrista, 
>SpB, 1877, pp. 36-37] BULH, BULHI are also mentioned in other armenian 
>accounts - the central asian people BULH between the khoresmians and
>Sogdiana; BUSHKI (bulhi) - when speaking about "the people of basli 
>(the Barsils) take shelter [in the Volga delta] from the bushki 
>(bulhi - the Bulgars) and the khazars..." 
>
>*********************
>
>Finally, about KANASUBIGI. It obviously contains the ending -IGI, -GI, 

such suffixes are also common in turkic, also sometimes simply -g + i

>characteristic for other bulgar words as well - DUGETOIGI, TAGROGI, 
>ITZIGI. Thus, it is kanasub-igi, kana-sub-igi, from SUB 
>(star) + -IGI, as from the "pamirian" ISH (ray) is formed ISHIGI 
>(shining), from WAKHT (time) - WAKHT@GI (temporary). 
>
>The same as in the avar kanizauci - kani-sau-ci, from that caucasian 
>avar ZAV (sky, heaven).
>
>