{This is quite lenghty so it can go on for for more than one page still to be determined}

Subject: White on Outside, Red Within Date:Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:06:12 GMT From: mitt7820@mach1.wlu.ca (Leeanne Mitton u) Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University Newsgroups: alt.native

First, I apologize for steering off the original topic, I didn't get to see the first thread.

Second, I Do not ignore my what I Used to call my "white" side, I would never disrespect my father by not recognizing his part in me....it has been a very long journey for me to find out that I am not one or the other, I am both...hopefully, maybe a bit immodest, I have the best of both in me...I am a bridge between both worlds....not a fence where I have to choose which side to live on.

But, I have heard the term Wannabee, and have had to struggle with the word....because in essence, the truest form of the words " Want to be".... I am...because I WANT to know where I came from, I WANT to learn about the culture...

I feel a great amount of grief when "Wannabe" is used towards me in such away that it is implied that I would do something to hurt the culture, that I will never know what it is like to REALLY be native, and feel the discriminations that a Indian person faces......When in truth I do, granted, because I can pass for white, I do have it easier, but can it ever be seen that half breeds do face discrimination( harsh word, can't think of anything else to replace it)...from both sides.... beening neither one or the other...not having all the qualities of either, but mixed qualities of both.....the good and the bad, You are always proving yourself...fighting to keep yourself.... it seems that it should be easy to pick one and be that.....but it isn't...trust me I have tried...because I thought it would be easier that way...but instead I lost parts of myself.

I am the futherest person from having all or any of the answers......For myself, I have come up with an answer that satisfies me, for now....like all things I am sure it will change with time.

In writting my original post, I wanted for curiosity sake, to find out how other people felt about the word...and the uses of the word.

Respectfully, Leeanne

Yes, but don't just blow off these people wholesale. Amidst all the faddishness and escapism are the seeds of genuine interest. There is real potential for fruitful relationships between whites and Indians, if both are mature enough to be able to nurture them. (Is anyone mature enough to nurture relationships? I really wonder sometimes.)

I think the path to spiritual growth begins in the here and now. Working in a community garden, lending a helping hand to the underprivileged, helping out a distressed neighbor are all very spiritual acts. They are very rewarding too, because they strengthen human ties and ensure that the world is not simply swallowed up by commerce.

Isn't that what it's all about?

Lisa

Yup, I agree. My dad and granny always said "You have to forgive them. They don't know any better. It's up to us to teach them" :)

Philip

As my white ancestors would say - Amen to that, Randy

Now, for whatever his purposes, Grandfather has seen fit to leave a remnant of the nations, a small hoarde of mix-bloods, and who knows how many wannabes with the desire to learn and live those good things the old ones learned and lived.

Is it really manifest destiny for all the pure bloods and U.S. Gov. certified natives to sit around and examine each other's blood quantum until there are none left, or does Grandfather have a better plan?

As the future was once in the hands of our grandfathers and has now become the history so many bemoan, today, again the future is in our own hands. We can join together in a way the old ones never did and learn to live in the harmony that each of us knows is Grandfather's way, or we can perish.

Grandfather can always raise up another people from the earth to walk with him, but if we want to honor our old ones we better learn to come together that our children--their grandchildren--can gather and enjoy the bounty of the earth in the way he intended.

As I hear the voices of those who direct wannabes to explore their ancesteral heritages from lands on the other side of the world from which most of them were born, I hear the same tones that must have carried over the council fires through the valleys of the Tsalagi homelands as they rejected the offer of the Creeks to stand strong together against the white onslaught many generations ago.

I'm sure they meant well, and I'm sure their reasons were good ones, but they were WRONG!!! The people suffered greatly from their mistakes and the culture they sought to preserve will never be the same.

Bend an ear to the wind, touch the living bark of the tree, and run your hand downward to the trunk and into the soil which nurtures it. Know that just as the trees are physically from the earth, so are we all. Even those born on the other side of the earth, are after seven years rooted in this Turtle Island and totally of this land.

The flesh of the old ones has long ago returned to the soil. That same soil--same flesh--lives today in all of us. The color of the skin may be different and the spirit drivers are new but we are all related.

He who turns away a brother turns away from his ancesters and himself. We are the enemy--our own worst enemy.

Time for peace, Randy

Subject:White on Outside, Red Within

Date:Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:45:47 +0100

From:George Wright

Organization: Not-a-lot

Newsgroups: alt.native

In article <5sciad$pmr@garcia.efn.org>, Ellen Mill writes That's a laugh - Sorry, Oak!

I think it's important to learn about, honor and respect all parts of yourself, native or European or...... I mean, just being a human being is difficult enough, ain't it? *grin*

Footnote at the top - how's that for strangeness!!

(Throughout this posting please note that I use "you" to refer to any native culture, to individuals and to tribes. However, because of my area of interest, it will be apparent that my principle "addressee" is native Americans. Likewise the personal pronoun is intended merely to convey that these are my own words/thoughts for which I alone am responsible, not that I have any special insight or am superior, despite my writing style, for which I apologiose in advance!) _________________________

A great deal of wisdom and insight has gone into this thread and it ishat which I applaud. I personally have learned a great deal from it, on a personal as well as a "cultural" level.

However I am left "concerned". I am still concerned about the individual on the one hand and the tribe/race/native community on the other. It seems there is always likely to be a tension between the two but I hope that, as an outsider, you might allow me a few comments and questions.

THE INDIVIDUAL Here my concern is as a professional psychologist, involved in the area of personal growth. Self is, of course, important and yes, we need to start there, to look within and - under the guidance of the Great Spirit - find what we are, what we were meant to be.

I have to say though that time and again I have found that "denial" of a certain aspect of what one is, or hopes to be, has been a barrier to further development.

Applying this to the issue at hand I do think the community needs to acknowledge that it can and does, inflict pain and lasting damage to others when it excludes them. That can build up resentment - those who could at least have been friends may become enemies. (and please note the conditional tenses in the last sentence - we are not talking "hard science" here!). :-)

For what it is worth, there is a sense in which, like it or not, the community has a duty (for its own sake as well as theirs) to individuals whose blood is not as pure as their own but who wish to identify with their roots.

The reason I give for this is that there is a point where self can develop no further because part of self is made inaccessible. As has so rightly been said, the starting point of all this is the "self". If that "self" includes an element of your blood what right is there to say, but you're not one of us? Is it right to inflict pain and to prevent someone growing?

THE TRIBE One of my biggest regrets is that tribal society in my European tradition has been obliterated. For a variety of reasons (which I won't bore you with!) I would feel more "complete" if I could, with a degree of certainty, say I was a member of the Pecsaetan (the tribe who "ruled" the area where I now live, some 1250 years ago). But I am not from a tribal culture (not my fault!) so I can never fully understand what it means.

Nevertheless I am going to say that, as an outsider, I don't want you to be like me - I admire you too much to wish that fate upon you!

It would be a dull, boring world if we were all the same! I don't really want to use this analogy, in case it's misinterpreted, but it's the only one I can think of! - Zoologists have put a great deal of money, time, research and effort into ensuring the survival of species of animals. That work has been backed by funding from governments and the public, yours and mine. Why can't the same principle of preserving diversity apply to humans? I think it should.

God, the Great Spirit, has made you as you are (and presumably me as I am, although I do not know a great deal about Him or your relationship with Him). I (for one) respect that and want to join you - (no, support is a better word!) in maintaining your separate identity and purpose. That I can't wholly do that, because I can't bear the pain which the call for racial purity inflicts on individuals, is a source of great sadness to me.

THE WORLD AT LARGE All over Europe (look at the former Yugoslavia and USSR for example) people are searching for new paths, new ways forward. Often, although they may not express it in quite this way, I perceive that this has to do with an innate desire to return to tribal values and ways. The world is too "big", too "shapeless" for us to live in.

I am not going to say that your time has come, but I do believe that one day the whole world will need your guidance, your age-old experience, your courage and determination in opposing "standardisation".

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying you ought to open the doors and let us all flood in - but, I beg, please be prepared to exercise the trust the Great Spirit has shown in you and consider that He might have chosen you to show we lesser mortals how to live - without having to accept us as tribal members. (As much as I might "wannabe" one of you, I know I can't be, an accident of birth prevents that!) :-(

Its not my place to ask where that leaves us, or to give answers. I've just tried to highlight some of the issues as best I can, in the sincere desire to be of service. I hope I have caused no offence to anyone - if I have, I beg your forgiveness for my ignorance.

In the spirit of dialogue and friendship, George Wright

Wallace Black Elk's book as "phenomenal!" He's widely criticized

"Black Elk Speaks" only covered a small portion of the man's life. He did a great deal of work for the Christian movement in his later years. There are a few books that explain his life in greater detail. If you follow this book, you are not getting the whole picture. The white writer knew he could influence future white generations with his guilded story of Native life as seen through the eyes of a Native elder, brief as it is. "The Sixth Grandfather" comes to mind.

*Nick* Black Elk and *Wallace* Black Elk are two different people...represented in two different books: _Black Elk Speaks: Being the Life Sory of a Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux_ as told through John G. Neihardt (1932) and _Black Elk: The Sacred Ways of a Lakota_ as told by Wallace Black Elk and William S. Lyon (1990). Yes, these are two of the many books I have read. _God is Red_by Deloria; _In The Spirit of Crazy Horse_ and _Indian Country_ by Matthiessen are phenomenal as well, wouldn't you agree?

Yes I agree. But "Black Elk Speaks" (the elder) has been labeled a religious classic by many and this is not correct. I also like "The Dullknives of Pine Ridge" and "Where White Men Fear to Tread" (Russell Means). It is a pity oral tradition is difficult for people to utilize now. Families have suffered for lack of communication. Look at the youth of today...all races. Where's the love? (I know that was corny but it's how I feel.) Thanks for talking to me.

Karen Hoskins sunkmanitusapa@hotmail.com

So that 4 may unite as One, Bear

Bend an ear to the wind, touch the living bark of the tree, and run your hand downward to the trunk and into the soil which nurtures it. Know that just as the trees are physically from the earth, so are we all. Even those born on the other side of the earth, are after seven years rooted in this Turtle Island and totally of this land.

The flesh of the old ones has long ago returned to the soil. That same soil--same flesh--lives today in all of us. The color of the skin may be different and the spirit drivers are new but we are all related.

He who turns away a brother turns away from his ancesters and himself. We are the enemy--our own worst enemy.

Time for peace, Randy

I've been following this thread with interest for several reasons, and am now braving my first ever usenet msg ... ulp ... (my apologies: this wound up far longer than I had intended ...)

The reason for both my interest and my decision to post are quite simple: I'm what passes for anglo (primarily Celtic, tho, so to be called "anglo" REALLY gets up my nose ... ) and am engaged to a man who is 3/4 Cherokee. I'm quite sure that there are those who will see my falling for a native american as some version of "wannabee", and there are those of his ppl who give him a hard time about "choosing" a white woman to be his partner: what concerns me in all this is the effect it will have on our children. I am, therefore, I guess asking for some kind of feedback from y'all on the subject ...

further information, since it might make some things clearer and prevent several assumptions:

* I'm Australian, not American: there are times when I am completely lost regarding the politics of colour/race here - and other aspects which i understand full well due to the Koori/white politics in Australia.

* before anyone asks: yes, I've long had an interest in indigenous American cultures, even went thru a period of teenage romanticism regarding plains indians on paint horses and so on ... same as I went thru a period of mooning around about ancient Egyptian culture, and Roman, and so on, all of which I grew out of ... why has my interest in NA cultures survived the longest?

because they're accessible, because there are many parrallels between the attitudes and belief systems and such of various NA cultures and those of the ancient Celts, and I have for the last decade and a half been on a path of reconnection with my blood traditions. in this land, the cultures still live, however modified they may be by european invasion: it's not just mythology, it's not just legends, there are cultural/spiritual PRACTISES which survive despite (and have perhaps even grown with) the changes brought by white folk. Put simply: my interest in NA cultural systems and beliefs is primarily as a blueprint, if you like, of a living framework which FEELS right, which feels very akin to what I know of the origins of Celtic shamanism. Perhaps ... the way one uses a paintbrush is much the same whether one paints with oil or acrylics, yes? I have my medium, I know my colours, I know the truths I must paint: what I have sought is a little guidance in the use of a brush ... but I certainly do not, have not, will not, attempt to paint someone else's picture ..

and ... no, I did not "choose" a NA lover ... any more than he "chose" a blonde white woman: I doubt many ppl are stoopid enough to voluntarily undergo the trials of such cultural differences within the relationship let alone the crap other folk want to throw at us, just for some kitschy romantic ideal. I won't go into the beliefs we have about each other and our love, but for saying that who we are now, what skins we wear, has little bearing on the reality of us; only on the lifestyle we may choose to lead.

what it will definitely impact upon, as far as I can tell, is our children. my man has had trouble on the res because of all this "FBI" vs half-breed crap ... it's the reason he now will not/can not live on res. His ppl are quite happy to make use of his skills, take advantage of his role as shaman ... while refusing to accord him proper respect simply because he is "tainted" by white blood, and now because he lives off-res. He has been called apple by the very same folk who will expect him to walk for their dead ... what does this mean for our children, whose blood will be even more "dilute"?

My natural tendency is to wish to raise our kids with an awareness of the cultural and spiritual heritage of the blood which runs in both our veins - anglo, irish, welsh, scottish, manx, jewish, cherokee: all of it - and an understanding of the political issues which often surround the question of blood and colour ... to let them feel their roots in these various cultures and learn that the soil which nurtures all of them is not so different, and certainly not irreconcilable one with the other. I would hope that it will not be NECESSARY for them to deny their "white" blood in order to feel permitted to acknowledge their indian blood, or vice versa .. which is something which my fiance feels the need to do, and which saddens me.

Perhaps I am naieve ... but it seems to me that courageous integrity would involve acknowledging the totality of one's heritage, however uncomfortable that may be. If one cannot find a balance within oneself between black and white, red and white, etc ... how can one expect to find balance in the outside world? If one cannot resolve history within one's own body, how to resolve it in one's land? And how to make a place for the children who will be born into a place and amongst peoples who are more concerned with blood-percentage than spiritual heritage? sionwyn@intrex.net (Sionwyn Lee)

JLQ Organization:Totally unorganized Newsgroups:alt.native

Doktor DynaSoar Iridium wrote:

JLQ collapsed wave functions that formed:

To anyone/all the people who are mainly white, grew up white, and speak a european language but feel "Indian":

Whats the matter with white on the outside, white on the inside?

Nobody can choose the "inside". There is always something the matter with acting as if you are something which you are not.

I think people can choose their inside. People who grew up a certain way with a certain language (let's say English), can easily admire what they see as "Indian culture" and become infatutated with it that they try to think, act, talk, and be "Indian". My friend no longer claims his Mexican and European identity, but an identity as a descendant of a Nazi soldier and a vampire. Is he crazy or is he really a vampire and Nazi soldier on the inside?I agree, there is a lot the matter when someone acts what they are not... JQ

owenea@aur.alcatel.com (Eddie A. Owens) Organization:Alcatel Network Systems, Inc Raleigh, NC Newsgroups:alt.native

My stepfather is a white man who became infatuated with the Native American culture. He learned to make arrow heads from flint and basalt using the point of deer antler. He taught me to do the same. He learned how to make and straighten an arrow shaft using fire, how to extract and use animal hide glue to fasten the arrow head to the shaft, how to select, cut and fashion a bow, how to make the bowstring by twisting fibers from the hemp plant that grows by the roadside.

When he goes to Powwows, I watch him shake his head at the Native Americans who sell Taiwanese bows and arrows.

JLQ Organization: Totally unorganized Newsgroups: alt.native S. O. Teryk wrote:

Take me into the Cascade Mountains and let us camp for two weeks. Let me show you what I understand about nature. Why I'd rather see a logging company change professions, than cut down the last old growth.

Let me show you how to be still and silent, and know that the Creator exists; that the animals are our kin by that relationship that comes from creation.

Watch my face when I hold an artifact, or see an Old Mother. See my heart waiting to be hugged and called Brother and Son. Just because some of you are born pure blood, does not make you any more "indian" than me, as far as the culture goes. City life separates you from that which I try to illustrate above.

I guess the problem here is what defines Indian... the characteristics you write about above could be held by anyone, but as usual, are considered stereotypical 'native American'. I'm sure some African born peoples could say the same thing about nature and city life and animals. Doesn't necessarily define anyone as Indian cultured. Though I respect your views on such. JQ

S. O. Teryk" Organization: 0LogicSquared Newsgroups: alt.native

You're right... I didn't express myself well. I should have said, "let any Native American, familiar with the love of natura, the natural understanding of living well beyond the city, take me out for a test.

As for Africans, they too, would have their natures-heritage to test. But the two would net be exactly alike, just as member of an LA Gang would be able to tell a wanabe, from a real, street wise individual. So I would test against the name of wanabe, when it comes to the understanding of such terms as calling the bear, my brother (which has nothing at all to do with sibling-like relationships.) "It" (this thing I try to describe as an understanding of nature) is not strictly Indian, as you say. But my claim to kinship would want to be tested by an Indian, over a Backwoodsman or current dweller in the wilds of alaska.

(still struggling .....) Ray

JLQ wrote: LQ Organization: Totally unorganized

MERLYN CAMP Newsgroups: alt.native

MERLYN CAMP wrote:

My Husband once asked me "You are also part white, why don't you honor that?"

My answer, "I do! I love classical music, opera and flamenco. I am also an artist who uses European based media. Even if I explore other cultural hertitage in my art work I honor my European heritage with my methods. In other words I honor those things in my European heritage that are honorable."

That's cool. The reason I asked the "whats wrong with white on the outside and inside" question is because I've seen people who seem to be in denial of the reality of their own identity and follow romantic notions of some form of Indian identity and then go on to almost hate their white or other roots. It's strange because I've seen orange colored people at pow wows (terrible fake tan), black dyed hair, and the like, and I wonder why the person tries so hard to change. Though I couldn't make much of a list myself, I'm sure there are many a great things in a European heritage for people to be proud of, like you said. Thanks for the reply. JQ

mitt7820@mach1.wlu.ca (Leeanne Mitton u) Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University Newsgroups: alt.native

"Randy R. Cox" (randd@worldnet.att.net) wrote: BearBeyond wrote: : > : > Soul has no color. : > : > Walking my Talk, : > Bear

<<>> <<>> <<>> <<>>

The skin hath color. . .what could be more superficial? Just a little deeper, blood. . .which is RED! These things return to the earth with death. Bear knows that which is forever is the color of wind!

: Randy

**************************************************************************** I totally agree with you....but in " theory" skin is nothing more than a wrapper tp keep the blood in side....In " practice" it is something that puts people into groups.

Leeanne

Organization: Netcom Newsgroups: alt.native

In article , mitt7820@mach1.wlu.ca (Leeanne Mitton u) wrote: "Randy R. Cox" (randd@worldnet.att.net) wrote: BearBeyond wrote:

>: > Soul has no color. >: > >: > Walking my Talk, >: > Bear

<<>> <<>> <<>> <<>>

The skin hath color. . .what could be more superficial? Just a little deeper, blood. . .which is RED! These things return to the earth with death. Bear knows that which is forever is the color of wind!

Randy **************************************************************************** I totally agree with you....but in " theory" skin is nothing more than a wrapper tp keep the blood in side....In " practice" it is something that puts people into groups.

Leeanne

Subject: Re: White on Outside, Red Within, Black Within, Yellow Within Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:42:12 -0500 From: "Randy R. Cox"

Wouldn't it be nice if people could learn to look INSIDE and see the TRUE person. Then skin color and "groups" would have no meaning. Maybe someday, if we all keep working at it.............

John

We walk in the flesh; we see flesh. Walk in the spirit; see spirit!

Randy

plainhorse@aol.com (PlainHorse) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: alt.native

PlainHorse WhytWynd In the Spirit We Ride In the Flesh We Hide

mitt7820@mach1.wlu.ca (Leeanne Mitton u) Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University Newsgroups alt.native

"Randy R. Cox" (randd@worldnet.att.net) wrote: john baratono wrote:

: > In article , mitt7820@mach1.wlu.ca (Leeanne Mitton u) wrote: "Randy R. Cox" (randd@worldnet.att.net) wrote: : BearBeyond wrote:

: > Soul has no color.

: > Walking my Talk, : > Bear

<<>> <<>> <<>> <<>>

>: The skin hath color. . .what could be more superficial? >: Just a little deeper, blood. . .which is RED! >: These things return to the earth with death. >: Bear knows that which is forever is the color of wind! >: >: Randy :>

**************************************************************************** : >I totally agree with you....but in " theory" skin is nothing more than a wrapper to keep the blood in side....In " practice" it is something that puts people into groups.

Leeanne

Wouldn't it be nice if people could learn to look INSIDE and see the TRUE person. Then skin color and "groups" would have no meaning. Maybe someday, if we all keep working at it.............

John

<<>> <<>> <<>> <<>>

We walk in the flesh; we see flesh. Walk in the spirit; see spirit!

Randy

************************************************************************ Very true, it is the state of the spirit that reflects what we see.....Yes it would be nice. each person , no matter what state of their spirit, to be able to at least accept...if not understand and love others for who they are..........

Leeanne an Idealist.....being frustrated into a Realist

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