Ellen Uncensored
Differing Views On Why Her Show Was Cancelled
May 6, 1998
(This is an unedited, uncorrected transcript.)
ANNOUNCER PrimeTime—now from New York, Diane Sawyer.
DIANE SAWYER, ABC NEWS Good evening, and welcome to
PrimeTime. Well, next week, the great experiment is over. One year after
more than 36 million people watched her coming out episode, Ellen
DeGeneres will leave ABC—her show canceled, her feelings bruised. And
she leaves behind a fierce debate about what happened. Did she torpedo
her own show by pushing a gay agenda, or did this network pretty much
abandon her? And what, if anything, does this say about America’s view
of what is just too gay? We decided to put some of these questions to one
of our bosses, the president of this network, and to the woman who started
this television season with so much excitement and hope. (Clip from Ellen)
JOELY FISHER (PH), ACTRESS Ellen, what’s taking so long?
DIANE SAWYER (VO) There’s no argument that the funniest Ellen
episodes this season were very, very funny, indeed. (Clip from Ellen)
ELLEN DEGENERES I was looking for my dignity, but I’m pretty sure
it’s gone for good.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) Classic Ellen, managing to strand herself on her
roof in a chicken suit. Or British actress Emma Thompson playing a gay
version of herself and reluctant to reveal it. (Clip from Ellen)
EMMA THOMPSON, ACTRESS But I have to think about my career.
Look, I just don’t want to spend the rest of my life playing prison matrons
and gym teachers.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) A year ago, DeGeneres said she was going to
keep her audience comfortable and bring them along slowly on gay themes
like dating, even though she was proudly public about her own relationship
with actress Anne Heche. So we wondered, what happened? How did she
decide to spend the first episodes looking for love? (Clip from Ellen)
ELLEN DEGENERES Come here often?
DIANE SAWYER (VO) Finding it. (Clip from Ellen)
ELLEN DEGENERES Hi, Lori.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) Embracing it. (Clip from Ellen)
ELLEN DEGENERES I really like you.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) And when we reviewed all 21 Ellen
episodes—and this is subjective—while five had barely a mention of being
gay and three you could argue about, 13 out of the 21 were primarily about
gay themes. For whatever reason, her audience seemed to pull back and
fall away.
MATTHEW PERRY, ACTOR (CLIP FROM EMMY AWARDS)
And the Emmy goes to the team from Ellen.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) And the woman who had been heralded as a
brave trailblazer was now being accused of going too far, too gay. (on
camera) How gay was the show?
ELLEN DEGENERES How gay was the show?
DIANE SAWYER Yeah.
ELLEN DEGENERES The subjects that we dealt with were the
subjects that any other show on television deals with. You know, all these
things that you go through when you feel something for another person. So,
you know, I guess if that’s gay because it’s the same sex that I’m dealing
with, then it’s gay.
DIANE SAWYER But 13 out of 21, too many?
ELLEN DEGENERES No. And if—and if I could’ve, if it wasn’t a
struggle every single week to get that on the air, it would’ve probably been
more.
DIANE SAWYER Even if it meant risking the comfort level of the
audience?
ELLEN DEGENERES Yeah. Because the comfort level of the audience
is never going to say, “Come on, give us some gay stuff. We’re ready for it
now.” You know, when I’m accused of becoming political, I’m showing
love. How is that political? How is that political to teach love and
acceptance?
DIANE SAWYER But this is a mass audience in America.
ELLEN DEGENERES Wasn’t that mass. You saw our ratings? (Clip
from Ellen)
ELLEN DEGENERES I’m new at this, so I don’t know the dos and the
don’ts and the signals ... I can understand why someone looks at that and
is a little uncomfortable because they’re not used to seeing it. You know, it
must’ve been uncomfortable for some white people to see some black
people walk into a restaurant that they weren’t supposed to be in. It’s
conditioning. We’re all raised with, “There’s something wrong. You’re not
quite normal.” You don’t—you just—there’s something—well, there’s
nothing wrong. And some day, people are going to get it.
DIANE SAWYER You said a year ago that the show was not going to be
political. It was not about showing two women kiss.
ELLEN DEGENERES And I meant every word I said. I didn’t have
some agenda. I didn’t think, “I’ll just sneak this in and then wait until
I—then I’m going to be as gay as possible.”
(Clip from Ellen)
ELLEN DEGENERES I’ve been thinking about the whole moving in
thing. Ooh, it’s scary. I know, I’m scared. But let’s just take a deep breath
and jump off the cliff like Butch and Sundance, you know? I’m pretty sure
they were a couple, too.
DIANE SAWYER What changed?
ELLEN DEGENERES I changed. I grew up. Because when I talked to
you last year, I didn’t even realize the internal homophobia and the—the
shame that I was still dealing with. I thought, if I just say the words, “I’m
gay,” if I just do that, that’s going to be enough. I mean, just to give you an
idea, I’m on vacation with Anne, and she went to grab my hand, to hold my
hand, and I pulled away. And I said, you know, “I don’t want to do this in
public.”
Now, meanwhile, that same week, I’m on the cover of Time magazine, big
picture of me, “Yep, I’m gay.” But I’m not going to hold my girlfriend’s
hand in public. Over the summer, I all of a sudden realize, “You can’t just
come out and then go back in the closet and not show anybody anything.”
DIANE SAWYER (VO) And the decision was strengthened, she says, by
the mail, which made it clear every show she did could help someone live.
ELLEN DEGENERES “I would just like to thank you again for giving
me the courage to be true to myself and letting me realize that I’m not a
nasty, sick person.”
“When I was in high school, I would get teased and threatened on a daily
basis. Throughout my four years in hell, I was known as dyke—queer.”
“The courage and pride in myself that I have found from watching you, it’s
so wonderful to feel for the first time in my life.”
DIANE SAWYER (on camera) So you made a decision you’d rather be a
pioneer than be renewed?
ELLEN DEGENERES Yes. If—if I just had this one year of doing what
I did on television, I’ll take that over 10 more years being on a sitcom and
just being funny.
DIANE SAWYER Was Ellen taken off the air because Ellen DeGeneres
is gay?
ROBERT IGER, PRESIDENT, ABC INC. No, no. The fact that Ellen
is gay had absolutely nothing to do with our decision.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) Robert Iger, president of ABC, the network that
canceled the show.
ROBERT IGER I was actually sorry to see the show go because I
thought it was a good program. And it would have been nice—I mean,
look, we’re not rooting for failure on our air.
DIANE SAWYER (on camera) Why do you think the audience left?
ROBERT IGER I think the audience left primarily because of sameness.
Not gayness. Sameness. (Clip from Ellen)
ACTRESS Hey, you realize we spent our first night together.
ELLEN DEGENERES Yeah, that’s how a girl gets a reputation.
ROBERT IGER It became a program about a lead character who was
gay every single week. And I just think that was too much for people.
DIANE SAWYER Well, she is gay every single week, though. And she
would say other sitcoms—Paul Reiser is heterosexual every single week.
ROBERT IGER Yes. And Jerry Seinfeld’s character in his program is a
heterosexual male. Now, I think when you watch the program, you have a
sense every week that he’s a heterosexual male. But the theme of each
program isn’t that he’s a heterosexual male. (Clip from Ellen)
ELLEN DEGENERES I’m very interested in sleeping with you. Believe
me, what’s the biggest number? What? Like probably 800 something?
That’s how interested I am.
ROBERT IGER I believe Ellen was driven by a very powerful inner
passion that made it absolutely impossible for her to slow down.
DIANE SAWYER I think she would say that discrimination can’t wait for
gradual and that you wouldn’t ask a black person to be a little less black.
You wouldn’t do that to any other group.
ROBERT IGER She did say that to me. And in today’s world, she’s
absolutely right. We would not ask a black person to modulate the fact that
they were black at all. But our society, our audience, has been dealing with
racial issues and is much more open to differences in race than they are
differences in sexual choice, sexual tendency. So there’s a reality that
exists here that she wanted to ignore.
ELLEN DEGENERES They were scared, you know? I mean, their—the
difference, their fear kept growing and my pride kept growing, and we
went in two different places.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) Two radically different views of reality and
responsibility.
ABC NETWORK PROMO Ellen is called the most significant comedy
since “All in the Family.”
DIANE SAWYER (VO) Iger says the network tried to support Ellen,
even taking the financial hit on her ad revenue and only wanted her to slow
things down for everybody’s good. DeGeneres says when her show was
promoted at all, it was often an afterthought.
ABC NETWORK PROMO Plus, Ellen—ABC Wednesday.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) Worst of all, six of her show’s episodes got
branded with parental advisories.
PARENTAL ADVISORY This program contains adult content.
DIANE SAWYER (on camera) What about this was adult content?
ROBERT IGER Depicting characters who are gay on television in
physical acts, I believe, is adult content.
DIANE SAWYER But how is that more adult content than heterosexual
couples rolling around in bed, which they do?
ROBERT IGER Again, we’re making a judgment about what our society
is comfortable with and what they might not be comfortable with.
DIANE SAWYER Aren’t we then just enabling a prejudice in the
audience?
ROBERT IGER We’re not telling people necessarily not to watch it.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) Iger says it’s his responsibility to alert viewers
to controversial content. But DeGeneres asks how is it then when Drew
Carey grabs a man, the network uses that to promote his show? (Clip from
The Drew Carey Show)
DREW CAREY, ACTOR Shut up and kiss me.
ELLEN DEGENERES It’s OK to make fun of homosexuality. You
can’t just have genuine feelings and hold someone’s hand. Then you get a
disclaimer. But if you want to kiss a guy on the lips and wrap your leg
around him and make fun of it, we’re going to advertise the hell out of that.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) And she says not all joke kisses are equal. (Clip
from Ellen)
ELLEN DEGENERES Oh, Paige, you wild, impetuous fool.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) This one on Ellen got a warning.
ELLEN DEGENERES Joely’s not gay. I happen to be gay, and I play a
gay person on television. We get a disclaimer. “Spin City” had the same
kiss with Michael J. Fox and Mike Boatman—he plays a gay character on
“Spin City.” But he’s not really gay in real life. They don’t get a
disclaimer. That’s a double standard to me.
ROBERT IGER I think in the spirit of absolute honesty, I’d have to
suggest that, to some extent, there is somewhat of a double standard here.
Now again, we think we were unbelievably supportive here in terms of
increasing people’s tolerance of gay people to get to a point, perhaps, when
there might not be any need for an advisory. But we’re not there yet.
ELLEN DEGENERES It just felt so degrading. And—and again, just a
warning to be, you know—it’s my life. It’s how I live my life. I love
someone, and because of who I choose to love, I get a warning label.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) But it was not only the network that had
problems with her show. Even some of the gay community said
DeGeneres had gone too far. She says that really hurt.
ELLEN DEGENERES Ouch.
DIANE SAWYER (on camera) Elton John - “Every program now is
about lesbianism. Shut up, just be funny. You know, my sexuality’s not
such a big deal to me.” Chastity Bono - “It’s so gay. It’s excluding a large
part of our society.”
ELLEN DEGENERES You know, I don’t know. I don’t want to attack
them. It hurts and, you know, in my house, I have things to say about them.
But I wouldn’t do it publicly, which is what I wish they wouldn’t have
done. I get attacked from some people saying “that’s too gay” and “you’ve
gone too far.” I get letters saying, “I was going to kill myself, but because
of you, I didn’t. Thank you.” Which is more important?
DIANE SAWYER (VO) Watching from the other room, girlfriend Anne
Heche, who came to show support. (on camera) What was the most
important thing Anne said to you this year?
ELLEN DEGENERES Could be “will you marry me?”
DIANE SAWYER And you said?
ELLEN DEGENERES Yes.
DIANE SAWYER And you’re going to?
ELLEN DEGENERES Of course. We’ll be the first ones in line as soon
as it’s legal.
DIANE SAWYER Children?
ELLEN DEGENERES We talk about it. Lately, we’ve been talking
about me having a kid. And if I do that, I’m going to have to do it, you
know, like in the next five minutes. I’m getting old.
ANNE HECHE, ACTRESS Hi.
DIANE SAWYER Hi. (VO) Heche, whose next movie is a romantic lead
with Harrison Ford, says she doesn’t want to believe that her relationship
with Ellen can put a career at risk.
ANNE HECHE That’s not the equation I believe the universe works in.
You get rewarded for joy and love. You don’t get punished for it.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) But what about the way the two stirred up the
critics? Remember that moment in front of the President? (on camera)
Should you have acted that way with the President?
ELLEN DEGENERES Acted what way? She had her arm around me.
We’d—somehow the rumors got crazy and said we were making out, and
we were kissing. We didn’t kiss.
ANNE HECHE If it’s disrespectful in this country to have your arm
around your loved one, then I think that’s something to say about the
country. I actually beg the question, “Why didn’t Clinton have his arm
around his wife?” It’s affection. It’s support. It’s love. It’s how we do it.
DIANE SAWYER What would it take to break the two of you up?
ELLEN DEGENERES No, that—that won’t happen.
DIANE SAWYER Is this still forever, the two of you?
ANNE HECHE Oh, forever and ever. I just got another ring. I think
every year we should add another ring.
DIRECTOR Take one, marker.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) But after five years on the air, next week, Ellen
DeGeneres will leave ABC—the place she acknowledges helped her
make history.
ELLEN DEGENERES First of all, I want to say, just in case they
haven’t gotten the message, and I have told them personally, but I am very
grateful. I am very grateful. Thank you for the opportunity. But, you know,
if ABC would’ve come to me and said, “Look, we love you. We think
you’re talented. We appreciate all the Emmy nominations you’ve gotten
and all the attention you’ve gotten us. But you’ve got to understand, this
whole gay thing is making us uncomfortable, and we can’t deal with it and
we can’t handle it.
“So please, come back because we probably will cancel your show. But
please come back, and let’s develop something new for you that’ll make us
feel more comfortable.” If they would’ve done that, I’d come back.
DIANE SAWYER If they had said to you, “This gay thing is making us
uncomfortable ... “
ELLEN DEGENERES All right. I’m lying, I’m totally lying.
DIANE SAWYER Well ...
ELLEN DEGENERES I—but you understand? I mean, I would’ve—I
would’ve appreciated the honesty of them saying, “This is something,
honestly, that we can’t handle.”
DIANE SAWYER So was everybody at fault a little?
ROBERT IGER No, I don’t think so.
DIANE SAWYER You really don’t?
ROBERT IGER No. I refuse to take the blame, and I don’t believe ABC
or Disney should take the blame.
DIANE SAWYER But given that she was a very vulnerable period of her
life, doing something brave, getting it from all sides, should she have been
given just more personal support in some way?
ROBERT IGER Well, I believe we tried to give her more personal
support. But, again, I think her own passion got in the way of that a bit.
She had a great opportunity, and she knew it. To some extent, she took
advantage of it. To some extent, she tried to take advantage of it too much,
and the result was failure.
DIRECTOR Ellen auditions, take 28.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) The final show is a one—hour, star—packed
spoof about all of TV’s breakthrough moments. From “Dick van Dyke” to
“Lucy” ... (Clip from Ellen)
JOELY FISHER That hurts.
ELLEN DEGENERES Just wait till I add the boiling water.
DIANE SAWYER (VO) And after the taping, there was no celebration.
A British documentary filmed her thanking the cameramen, the crew for
their bravery.
ELLEN DEGENERES You’ve dealt with probably stuff that you don’t
deserve to deal with because—because of my views and because of what
I decided to do with my life. And I—I walked out the door with my mother
to the sound of silence. I’m going to miss—I’m going to miss the show.
And it was—it was—it was five years of my life. And I loved doing it, and
I’m going to miss the show a lot. But it’s—it still—it doesn’t make any
difference to me if I would have stayed on, you know, two more years or
10 more years. If I would have been not following my heart and what I
think is necessary and what is going to make a huge difference in people’s
lives. That’s more important to me than anything right now. I grew up
wanting to be famous. I grew up wanting to be somebody. And then I, all
of a sudden, found out that I wanted to be somebody happy, and that was
more important than just being somebody. And I am happy. I am so
grateful every day. I am so blessed.
DIANE SAWYER The final episode of Ellen, the hour—long one, will be
broadcast next Wednesday at 9:00, 8:00 Central. Ellen DeGeneres also has
a new movie coming out, and she said she’s talking to another network
about possibly another sitcom. And she told us she plans to travel and
continue talking to people like those who wrote her, telling them there is no
reason to be ashamed.
