This is the transcript from the USOC hearing. This document has been formatting to view with your browser, therefore it is not in its original form. Special care was taken to make it as complete as possible. There are no guarantees. We have put up a chat area to allow a forum to discuss this litigaion. At the end of this document, you will find a link to the second part of this transcript.
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1 A PROCEEDING COMMENCED BEFORE
2 THE UNITED STATES OLYMPIC COMMITTEE
3 ------------------------------------------------------
4 HEARING HELD MAY 19, 20, 1997
5 ------------------------------------------------------
6 THE AMERICAN YOUTH SOCCER ORGANIZATION, a California
7 nonprofit public benefit corporation,
8 Complainant,
9 vs.
10 THE UNITED STATES SOCCER FEDERATION, a New York
11 not-for-profit corporation,
12 Respondent.
13 ------------------------------------------------------
14 PURSUANT TO NOTICE, the hearing was held on behalf of
15 the Complainant, these dates at 10:00 a.m. and 8:00
16 a.m. respectively, before a panel consisting of Sandy
17 Baldwin, Tom Satrom, Cynthia Kelly and Perry Toles;
18 reported by Debra K. Resling, Registered Merit
19 Reporter and Notary Public.
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1 APPEARANCES
2 MR. FRED F. GREGORY and MR. RICHARD B.
3 LEVY, Attorneys at Law, from the Law Firm of Gibson,
4 Dunn & Crutcher, 333 South Grand Avenue, Los Angeles,
5 California 90071, appeared on behalf of the
6 Complainant.
7 MR. WILLIAM C. CHOI, Attorney at Law from
8 the Law Firm of Rodriguez, Horii & Choi, 777 S.
9 Figueroa Street, Suite 4207, Los Angeles, California
10 90017, appeared on behalf of the Complainant.
11 MR. PETER C. ALKALAY, Attorney at Law, from
12 the Law Firm of McLaughlin & Stern, LLP, 260 Madison
13 Avenue, New York, New York 10016, appeared on behalf
14 of the Respondent.
15 MS. MELISSA A. APCEL, General Counsel for
16 the U.S. Soccer Federation, U.S. Soccer House,
17 1801-1811 S. Prairie Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60616,
18 appeared on behalf of the Respondent.
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1
2 I N D E X
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4 CLAIMANTS' WITNESSES: Page
5
BURTON HAIMES
6
Examination by Mr. Gregory 31
7 Examination by Mr. Gregory (continued) 110
Examination by Mr. Alkalay 141
8 Examination by Mr. Gregory 171
Examination by Mr. Alkalay 177
9
DON WEST
10
Examination by Mr. Gregory 59
11 Examination by Mr. Alkalay 82
12 FRANK FILO
13 Examination by Mr. Levy 181
Examination by Mr. Alkalay 202
14 Examination by Mr. Levy 205
Examination by Panel Members 207
15
RESPONDENTS' WITNESSES:
16
HANK STEINBRECHER
17
Examination by Mr. Alkalay 209
18 Examination by Mr. Gregory 255
Examination by Mr. Alkalay 291
19 Examination by Mr. Gregory 299
Examination by Panel Members 302
20
21 LARRY MONACO
22 Examination by Mr. Alkalay 341
Examination by Mr. Gregory 362
23 Examination by Panel Members 374
Examination by Mr. Rowan 388
24
25 BOB CONTIGUGLIA
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1 Examination by Panel Members 306,393
Examination by Mr. Alkalay 394
2 Examination by Mr. Gregory 415
Examination by Mr. Alkalay 424
3 Examination by Mr. Gregory 426
Examination by Panel Members 429
4
VIRGIL LEWIS
5
Examination by Mr. Alkalay 447
6 Examination by Mr. Gregory 468
Examination by Panel Members 473
7 Examination by Mr. Gregory 486
8
9
10 Identified
11 CLAIMANT'S DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
12
1 AYSO Complaint 24
13 2 USSF's Constitution & Bylaws 24
3 Slide presentations from 5/19/97 Hearing 24
14 4 11/9/84 Letter to Mankamyer/Thompson 67
5 4/4/89 Letter to Youth Soccer/Haimes 117
15 6 6/1/90 Memo to Affiliates from Fricker 81
7 Memo to Plano Youth Soccer/Med Karnal 197
16 8 Plano Youth Soccer Correction Statement 206
9 National Board of Directors Minutes 249
17 10 Executive Committee Minutes 249
11 1/28/97 Memo to Thompsett/Wilson 279
18 12 2/3/97 Letter to Apcel/Gregory 280
13 2/14/97 Letter to Messersmith
19 from Steinbrecher 281
14 2/13/97 Letter to Apcel/Gregory 466
20
RESPONDENT'S EXHIBITS
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A U.S. Soccer's Membership Structure 92
22 B 5/18/74 Letter to Soccer Community/Stierle 107
C 8/9/95 Memo to USSF/Haimes
23 D 6/21/93 Memo to Lefever/Haimes 151
E 2/26/97 Letter to Apcel/Gregory 158
24 F 5/21/91 Memo to Steinbrecher/Burt 159
G 10/2/95 Memo to ODP Administrators
25 from Thompsett 294
H Organizations registered with USYS
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1 State Associations
I Supplement to Exhibit 11 341
2 J Media Packet 358
K 9/9/96 Memo to Morrow/Simeone 411
3 L 2/4/97 Letter to Wilson/Messersmith
M 2/19/97 Letter to Steinbrecher/Messersmith
4 N USSF Financial Statements
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1 MAY 19, 1997
2 WHEREUPON, the following proceedings were
3 had:
4 MS. BALDWIN: Good morning, everyone.
5 This is the hearing on the Article VIII complaint
6 brought by the American Youth Soccer Organization.
7 AYSO, against the United States Soccer Federation,
8 USSF. USOC President Bill Hybl has appointed a
9 hearing panel to consider this matter in accordance
10 with Chapter 8, Section 5 of the USOC bylaws.
11 At this time, I would like to have the
12 panel members introduce themselves. My name is Sandra
13 Baldwin, Vice-president of the U.S. Olympic
14 Committee.
15 MR. SATROM: I'm Tom Satrom, Board of
16 Directors member for the sport of U.S. Curling.
17 MS. KELLY: I'm Cynthia Kelly. I serve
18 on the Executive Committee of USOC representing USA
19 Badminton.
20 MR. TOLES: I'm Perry Toles, the
21 athlete representative on the hearing panel.
22 MS. BALDWIN: And of course you all
23 know Mr. Rowan.
24 Now, I would like the parties to
25 introduce themselves to the panel. AYSO.
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1 MR. GREGORY: Yes. My name is Fred
2 Gregory from the firm Gibson, Dunn and Crutcher in Los
3 Angeles. I'm the attorney representing AYSO. And I am
4 a regional commissioner of AYSO, and I have been
5 involved in the sport of soccer for 20 years.
6 With me is Rick Levy, who when his
7 bags arrive, Delta finds his luggage later today, I'm
8 not sure you will find that his appearance is any
9 improved, but this is Rick Levy, my associate.
10 Also with us today are Bill Choi of
11 the firm of Rodriguez, Horii and Choi in Los Angeles
12 representing AYSO.
13 We have Burton K. Haimes, Chairman of
14 the Board of AYSO. Stand up, Burt, please, and Burt
15 is a past president of AYSO, and has been involved in
16 the sport of soccer for 20-some years.
17 Don West is a past president of AYSO,
18 and has also been involved in the sport of soccer for
19 many, many years having been a player, and an
20 administrator, coach, and past president of AYSO.
21 Frank Filo, from Plano, Texas is a
22 regional commissioner of Region 1010 in Plano, Texas.
23 Unless I forgot...that's who we have with us.
24 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. Thank you. USSF.
25 MR. ALKALAY: My name is Peter
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1 Alkalay. I'm counsel for the United States Soccer
2 Federation. I'm with the firm of McLaughlin and Stern
3 in New York City. I'm here with my associate Sonya
4 Kaloyanides. To my right is Melissa Apcel, who is the
5 general counsel of the Federation. Dr. Bob
6 Contiguglia, sitting next to her, is the chair of the
7 coaching committee, prior chair of the Youth Division
8 as well as the prior vice-president. Sitting next to
9 Dr. Bob Contiguglia is Larry Monaco, who is the
10 Executive Vice-president, and Hank Steinbrecher, who
11 is the Secretary General and Executive Director of the
12 Federation.
13 Also, Marty Mankamyer, who is the U.S.
14 Soccer representative to the USOC Board is sitting in
15 as an observer, and Michael Harrigan, who has acted as
16 a consultant to the Soccer Federation, is with us as
17 well. Thank you.
18 MS. BALDWIN: Thank you. This is an
19 evidentiary proceeding. We will hear witnesses and
20 receive evidence. Both parties have submitted
21 substantial papers regarding their positions and the
22 panel has reviewed these materials. We will hear
23 first from the AYSO as they present their case. We
24 will then hear the argument of USSF including
25 cross-examination.
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1 At the conclusion, the panel will go
2 into executive session to consider the complaint and
3 the parties will be excused.
4 The panel reserves the right to take
5 up to 30 days to render its decision.
6 A couple of things. One, I would like
7 it to go into the record that all parties have agreed
8 that we would have the hearing today in spite of one
9 member of our panel being absent, so please enter
10 that.
11 Also I would like from each of you to
12 give us some idea of what you think your time frame is
13 to present new materials today and tomorrow, so that
14 everyone can sort of look at when we might consider
15 departing Colorado Springs.
16 MR. GREGORY: Yes. For AYSO, first,
17 with respect to Mr. Richardson, we have agreed that
18 the matter can proceed today in his absence. The
19 question has arisen, and that is whether in the event
20 there is a tie in the panel, he would be given the
21 transcript and be participating in any dialogue that
22 the panel might have during executive session.
23 MS. BALDWIN: During that 30 days?
24 He's saying in Tim's absence, if we
25 gave him the transcript, and we were still
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1 deliberating could his deliberations be, could he then
2 be added back to the panel.
3 (Panel conferring with counsel.)
4 MS. BALDWIN: Ron and I both feel if we
5 ran into a tie problem, then that would be a very good
6 time to bring Mr. Richardson in and have him review
7 everything. If we didn't, we certainly wouldn't
8 consider it at all.
9 MR. ALKALAY: May I be heard for a
10 moment on that. I don't know what Fred's view on that
11 is, but I'm somewhat reluctant to have a decisive vote
12 cast by someone who was not present and is not
13 participating in the hearing.
14 MS. BALDWIN: My panel feels here that
15 no one should be brought back in, these members, who
16 wasn't here for this. I think the issue is exactly
17 what to do in the event we had a tie, whether we would
18 go to the board with a split decision, and I think
19 that's what we would do.
20 (Panel conferring.)
21 MS. BALDWIN: They also said we'll deal
22 with it if it happens.
23 MR. GREGORY: All right.
24 MR. ALKALAY: Okay.
25 MR. GREGORY: Thank you. And with
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1 respect to timing, we believe our evidence on our case
2 in chief will take most of today, perhaps, not all of
3 it. We will try to be as quick as possible, and we
4 will have some time depending upon the USSF evidence
5 for rebuttal, but I would hope to be able to finish
6 our presentation possibly by 4:00 this afternoon,
7 assuming we break for maybe up to an hour and a half
8 or something like that for lunch.
9 MS. BALDWIN: Okay.
10 MR. ALKALAY: I expect that we may be a
11 day as well. Some of that will depend upon what we
12 hear today, but I think the way the matter was
13 presented to us was our expectation was that Monday
14 was AYSO day, and Tuesday was USSF day, and we've sort
15 of planned along those lines.
16 Indeed, we have Virgil Lewis, who is
17 the chair of the Youth Division, is only arriving
18 tonight, and he will be one of our witnesses, so we do
19 expect it could take the better part of the day,
20 including cross-examination.
21 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. Thank you.
22 MR. GREGORY: Is it your preference
23 that we address, as counsel, address the panel from
24 the podium?
25 MS. BALDWIN: I don't think -- this is
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1 an interesting little set-up -- it doesn't really make
2 any difference, wherever you feel most comfortable
3 except, again I always hate peeking around things.
4 MR. ALKALAY: Fred, what do you plan?
5 MS. BALDWIN: If you're going to be
6 there, let's move this.
7 MR. ALKALAY: I would actually prefer
8 for physiological reasons, because I have a bad back,
9 I would actually prefer if I could, to spend as much
10 time seated as I could, no disrespect to the panel,
11 but it's just easier for me.
12 MR. GREGORY: May I move this?
13 MS. BALDWIN: Yes, you may.
14 I'm glad all of you would like to
15 present from where you are.
16 One of the things that Ron had pointed
17 out is that if we do finish theirs by four, we might
18 want you to start this afternoon even though that one
19 witness wasn't going to be on, but we certainly would
20 be, I think we're all prepared to go well into
21 tomorrow certainly.
22 MR. ALKALAY: Are you going to have
23 opening statements?
24 MS. BALDWIN: Yes. And we will begin
25 with our opening statements.
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1 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
2 AYSO is here today because for nearly
3 20 years, USSF has stubbornly refused to perform its
4 obligation to represent soccer organizations other
5 than itself. It has persistently excluded other
6 ideas, other philosophies and other organizations.
7 It has vigorously isolated itself from
8 the larger soccer community by refusing admission to
9 its tournaments and national championships; by
10 threatening its players, coaches and referees with
11 punishment if they interplay with other organizations
12 including AYSO; by overtly ignoring the interest of
13 soccer players who are not its members; by enforcing
14 rules designed to discourage experimentation and the
15 successful growth of non-registered soccer programs.
16 Of the estimated 12 million soccer, youth soccer
17 players in America today, USSF represents only about
18 2.5 million.
19 Who is AYSO? The American Youth
20 Soccer Organization is a national organization of
21 nearly 600,000 youth soccer players participating in
22 regions located in, I think, 44 states. AYSO seeks to
23 develop children's character and to promote interest
24 and skill in the game of soccer by open registration
25 for all interested youth age 4 and a half to 19.
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1 Balance teams to encourage all interested players to
2 participate. Everyone plays a minimum of half a game
3 to give all children an opportunity to improve. Good
4 sportsmanship by players, coaches, referees and
5 parents in order to teach proper values. Positive
6 coaching to provide a nourishing and instructing
7 atmosphere.
8 AYSO actively addresses the
9 participation of girls in the game of soccer, and
10 women in the ranks of coaches, referees and
11 administrators through vigorous recruitment efforts.
12 AYSO actively addresses the participation of
13 handicapped players and programs especially designed
14 and operated by coaches experienced with the needs of
15 children handicapped by physical, mental or emotional
16 challenges.
17 The needs of skilled and competitive
18 players with secondary seasons and tournaments in
19 tournament programs from ages 8 to 19 are addressed by
20 AYSO.
21 AYSO addresses the players' skilled
22 development with small-sided games designed to involve
23 each player in active participation in all aspects of
24 the game.
25 The evidence will show, though, that
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1 AYSO is denied reasonable direct representation in
2 USSF. AYSO players, referees and coaches are banned
3 from USSF National Tournaments and cups. AYSO players
4 are ignored as the majority of soccer players in
5 America are ignored by USSF's Olympic development and
6 national team selection programs. AYSO's philosophy
7 for player development is categorically rejected by
8 USSF who brands it defiantly different, communistic,
9 outlaw, radical and dangerous.
10 We will ask the panel what danger is
11 there in opening the game to everyone? In encouraging
12 everyone to participate? And in teaching positive
13 values of teamwork and good sportsmanship; of creating
14 a nurturing and positive environment for children to
15 grow their skills.
16 The evidence will show that AYSO is
17 different because USSF dislikes these philosophies.
18 It is not, we believe, the role of USSF to pick and
19 choose that it will support one positive idea in
20 soccer over another positive idea in soccer; but
21 rather the job of the national body for soccer is to
22 nurture participation, to encourage, nurture and grow
23 soccer in America through all the positive
24 organizations that exist.
25 We believe the evidence will show at
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1 the end of this hearing that USSF has failed in its
2 role as the national governing body and that major
3 restructuring is in order if USSF is to perform that
4 role effectively in the future.
5 When, then, at the conclusion of
6 USSF's opening statement, we will proceed with our
7 evidence.
8 MS. BALDWIN: Thank you. Would you
9 like to give your opening statement now?
10 MR. ALKALAY: Thank you.
11 I would like to start by trying to
12 place these proceedings in the proper context, because
13 what I think you just heard is a reaffirmation of a
14 position that the Soccer Federation and its membership
15 have been upholding all along, which is that AYSO
16 historically and to this day is intent upon creating a
17 national governing body in its own image; a national
18 governing body that embraces its philosophy. We have
19 no quarrel with its philosophy. They are what they
20 are. They market and exploit their differences in the
21 soccer community. And when I hear them say that
22 somehow or another soccer organizations have been
23 excluded, and I think they use the term in their brief
24 that there has been some sort of chilling effect,
25 that's belied by their own claims about how
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1 phenomenally they have grown.
2 And the truth of the matter is, and as
3 you will see later on in the hearing, soccer
4 organizations are very much a part of the NGB
5 structure. And that brings me back again to why are
6 we here today?
7 A complaint has been filed, and the
8 complaint alleges that the United States Soccer
9 Federation has somehow unlawfully delegated matters
10 central to the governance of the sport; has not given
11 AYSO reasonable direct representation on the governing
12 board of U.S. Soccer, and has somehow failed in its
13 NGB responsibility to develop interest in the sport.
14 Now, I think that the panel -- and I
15 might be saying things here that are quite familiar to
16 the panelists, but I'm not certain, so excuse me if
17 this is old hat to you -- let's take a look at what
18 the legal framework and background of all of this
19 really is.
20 As all of you know, one of the
21 important and primary purposes of the Amateur Sports
22 Act was to create an organization in NGBs that was a
23 vertical structure, something that had a grass roots
24 element, moving up to the tip of the pyramid to create
25 elite athletes. And the legislative history of the
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1 Amateur Sports Act is replete with references to
2 vertical integration.
3 The Amateur Sports Act also deals with
4 the concept of what direct reasonable representation
5 is supposed to mean. And I'm now going to quote very
6 briefly from the Senate Committee report: Reasonable
7 representation in a national governing body is
8 guaranteed to all amateur sport organizations which
9 conduct national programs, national programs capable
10 of developing athletes at a level appropriate for
11 international competition.
12 As you will see from the evidence,
13 AYSO has focused much younger age groups and has, in
14 large measure, relinquished the gifted athletes to the
15 United States Soccer Federation for development within
16 the youth division and ultimately at the national
17 level.
18 Let's turn to a moment for what
19 "autonomy" means and what "delegation" means. The
20 legislative history says that one of the most
21 important criteria is that a national governing body
22 must be autonomous. It must be able to demonstrate
23 that its policies are developed by its members in
24 accordance with its governing framework and are not
25 imposed by an outside organization. It must determine
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1 for itself the programs best suited for its sport.
2 That's exactly what the United States
3 Soccer Federation does. The United States Soccer
4 Federation has structured itself in such a way that it
5 has youth, amateur, professional divisions, and other
6 affiliate members like AYSO, independent amateur
7 sports organizations who conduct their own programs.
8 But what AYSO refused to accept and acknowledge is
9 that the United States Soccer Federation is in and of
10 itself performing exactly what Congress intended NGBs
11 to do by the Amateur Sports Act, which is conduct
12 their own programs.
13 And obviously, if the NGB is doing its
14 job and is conducting programs and is successful in
15 conducting its programs, the 2.5 million players that
16 are represented by USYSA, that's not an accident, and
17 there are over three and a half, somewhere near 3.8
18 million registered soccer players within the
19 Federation. This is a growing, flourishing sport. It
20 has become a preeminent sport in the Olympic
21 community. It's taken time. There have been some
22 struggles, but it's doing its job, and it's doing it
23 well, and it is succeeding in its job.
24 Now what AYSO is really complaining
25 about is not so much that there is anything unlawful
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1 about the delegation of responsibility to the youth
2 division; what it is really complaining about, and I
3 think you heard it from Mr. Gregory, what it's really
4 complaining about is that the delegation hasn't been
5 to it.
6 Historically, AYSO has been agitating
7 for a separate, autonomous, independent youth
8 organization to run youth programs, and they haven't
9 changed their views. They are still interested in
10 having an independent youth component, but that's not
11 the way the Federation chose to be and chose to act
12 and chose to fulfill its NGB responsibilities.
13 Let me quote you from a May 1991
14 letter that was written by Burt Haimes, because I
15 think it really tells the whole story in a nutshell.
16 I quote: Our view of the Federation
17 is a different one from yours. As you try -- he's
18 writing to Hank Steinbrecher, Executive Director -- As
19 you try to push USYSA and USASA, the amateur division,
20 closer to the Federation, we will object. We think
21 the Federation should not be a body directly involved
22 in running soccer programs, but a Federation of
23 organizations that do run programs.
24 Let me repeat that. We think the
25 Federation should not be a body directly involved in
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1 running soccer programs but a Federation of
2 organizations that do run programs. That's what they
3 want. They want a conFederation of organizations who
4 all run their own programs independently.
5 That's not what the United States
6 Soccer Federation is all about. It runs its own
7 programs, develops its own athletes and looks towards
8 a pipeline from the grass roots at the base of the
9 pyramid to the top, and that system has begun to
10 really work. It is beginning to yield tremendous
11 results, both in women and in men's.
12 Now, there is a fundamental flaw, we
13 think, in the way the AYSO views the Federation,
14 because it continuously talks about the fact that
15 somehow or another the United States Soccer Federation
16 anointed USYSA to be its youth division, and then it
17 did so making a conscious decision to avoid or ignore
18 AYSO. That is absolutely not the case. And you will
19 hear that from the witnesses.
20 The United States Youth Soccer
21 Association grew to react to a growing need amongst
22 National State Associations to have a strong youth
23 component within the Federation, and when USYSA became
24 the youth division, it did so with AYSO absolutely not
25 a consideration. It wasn't as if some selection was
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1 made. It wasn't as if the Federation decided we're
2 going to go out there, and we're going to hurt AYSO.
3 We're going to do something that undermines their
4 ability to grow. The truth is that has never
5 happened. AYSO is growing. You can look at their own
6 statistics, and they continue to go out and market,
7 and when I -- yes, Fred was right when he
8 characterized the marketing of their own organization
9 as defiantly independent. That's what they want to
10 be. And they have done so repeatedly throughout the
11 years and indeed throughout the years, up until recent
12 history, they were rather disdainful of the United
13 States Soccer Federation.
14 Now, I heard Fred say that the United
15 States Soccer Federation has been ignoring the
16 interest of soccer players. What we are aware of is
17 that yes, there have been, from time to time, in a
18 country as large as ours, local incidents.
19 Instances where of the 55 National
20 State Associations that comprise the youth division,
21 there have been times when the national policy of the
22 Federation have not been adhered to, and there have
23 been times where there have been disputes at the local
24 level. Virtually all of them have been handled
25 informally. And when it has come to the attention of
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1 the United States Soccer Federation, action has been
2 taken to rectify it.
3 That is happening more today than it
4 has in the past. In truth, the Youth Division and
5 USYSA are fully accountable to the United States
6 Soccer Federation, whether we're talking about the
7 removal of officers, whether we're talking about
8 disciplinary measures that can be taken if the youth
9 division acts in any way that it's inimical to the
10 best interests of the sport. Or whether it deals with
11 referee and coaching and other policy, the United
12 States Youth Division and USYSA are fully accountable
13 to the Federation.
14 AYSO is not.
15 And that bridge, that difference is,
16 in part, what brings us here today. AYSO has
17 continued to maintain over and over and over again
18 that it wants it their way or no way at all. They
19 want to impose their agenda on the United States
20 Soccer Federation, even though that's not what the
21 majority of the soccer community wants.
22 Thank you.
23 MR. GREGORY: We will, because of the
24 nature of this case, unfortunately, have to bury the
25 panel's noses into the rules of USSF. We have
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1 prepared copies of them. In the event that -- I think
2 there are enough to go around -- but these are
3 sections, let me begin again. These are the
4 constitution of USSF, which is two pages, front,
5 actually, one page front and back, and then Sections 2
6 and 4 of the USSF rules, because those are the
7 relevant sections of their rules.
8 The first thing I would like to offer
9 into evidence is the Complaint by AYSO against USSF
10 verified by Mr. Harvey Lightstone, the President of
11 AYSO. That complaint may already be in the hands of
12 each of the panel members, and certainly in the hands
13 of USSF, but we do have additional copies that we're
14 prepared to hand out now.
15 So Exhibit 1 is the AYSO complaint.
16 Exhibit 2 are the USSF Constitution and rules. Exhibit
17 3 are the slides, copies of the slide presentations,
18 and let's begin by looking at the composition of
19 USSF.
20 This slide shows that USSF has
21 approximately 3.1 and a half million players under its
22 umbrella, of which 73 percent comprise the youth
23 players of USYSA; 6 and a half percent comprise the
24 adult amateur players in the amateur division of USSF;
25 AYSO comprises 17 and a half percent of the players
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1 under the USSF umbrella. It's not part of either the
2 amateur or the youth division. The professional
3 players comprise .2 percent of the players playing
4 under the USSF umbrella, and they comprise the
5 professional division of USSF, and other organizations
6 such as SAY Soccer comprise 2.8 percent of the USSF
7 players.
8 This total then of 3.1 and a half
9 million players represents all the professional, all
10 the adult amateur, and all the youth players playing
11 within the umbrella of USSF. Of those figures USYSA
12 represents about two and a half million players. AYSO
13 and SAY soccer comprise about 600,000 players. So you
14 can see that there aren't too many players left when
15 you pull the amateurs and the professionals.
16 The reason why AYSO does not have
17 reasonable direct representation in USSF is found in
18 the way USSF is structured.
19 The rules -- excuse me, and you can
20 refer here to the definition of the National Council
21 of USSF in Rule 2017 Section 1 at Page 14 of Section
22 2, and the rules, by the way, that we have offered
23 into evidence are the 1996-'97 rules that are
24 currently in effect for USSF.
25 There the National Council of USSF is
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1 described as the legislative body of the United States
2 Soccer Federation and shall have ultimate
3 responsibility for all matters of the Federation.
4 So in the body that has ultimate
5 authority for all matters in the Federation, the
6 National Council -- let's take a look at the voting --
7 now that you have seen how the population of USSF is
8 divided, let's take a look at how the votes are
9 divided.
10 The amateur division, which represents
11 6 and a half percent of the players has 30.4 percent
12 of the votes on the National Council. The
13 professional players who represent .2 percent of the
14 player population of USSF has 30.4 percent of the
15 votes on the National Council. The USYSA that
16 represents 73 percent of the player population, all
17 youth players, get 30.4 percent of the votes.
18 AYSO that has 17 and a half percent of
19 the player population of USSF gets 1.6 percent of the
20 votes on USSF's National Council, and the others that
21 represent 2.8 percent of the player population -- I
22 should backtrack, because I realize as I'm saying this
23 -- the 7.2 percent represents past presidents,
24 members of the Board of Directors, and others who are
25 not necessarily players in soccer today.
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1 So the total 681 votes on the National
2 Council, I believe AYSO has a total of 11 votes. The
3 ultimate authority for the USSF is the National
4 Council.
5 By reason of -- and we'll go into this
6 in greater detail -- by reason of an agreement struck
7 in 1989, in the face of a hearing then with the United
8 States Olympic Committee, and to avoid that hearing,
9 USSF granted AYSO a position on the Board of Directors
10 of USSF.
11 The Board of Directors is designated
12 in -- where is it?
13 MR. ALKALAY: Page 31.
14 MR. GREGORY: Oh, Page 31, I
15 misunderstood you. The National Board of Directors is
16 defined in Page 31, Rule 2061, Section 1. The
17 National Board of Directors shall constitute the
18 governing board of the Federation as such term is
19 defined in the Amateur Sports Act.
20 So even though the National Council is
21 the ultimate authority under USSF's rules and can
22 reverse, countermand, refuse to enact whatever the
23 National Council decides to do, any policy or Rule
24 adopted by the National Board of Directors, the
25 National Board of Directors is that body designated as
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1 the governing body of USSF for purposes of the Amateur
2 Sports Act, and it is on that body that AYSO naturally
3 was granted membership in order to satisfy reasonable
4 direct representation requirements.
5 So, let's look at what happened to the
6 duties put upon USSF by the Amateur Sports Act when it
7 was designated as the National Governing Body of
8 Soccer.
9 The duties and authorities represent
10 those duties and authorities conferred upon a national
11 governing body by the Amateur Sports Act in various
12 parts of Article VII. Article VII requires a national
13 governing body to develop interest and participation
14 in the sport. Where did that go in USSF?
15 There you have to look for Rule 4011
16 and Part (1)(b) 6. This Article 4, Part 4 of USSF's
17 rules deals with youth soccer and deals with the
18 USYSA, and it deals with the structure of USSF that
19 begins with the National Council whose members are the
20 state soccer associations approved by USSF, either in
21 the youth or in the adult divisions.
22 So you have USSF, and you have as
23 members of USSF, the National State Associations,
24 affiliates such as AYSO, and other affiliates, and I
25 think there may be something called associations now.
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1 So the way it works is you begin with
2 the USSF Board of Directors and you look at where
3 they're doing their job. It's called the NSA. Who is
4 an NSA? An NSA is an independently incorporated
5 body. There are 55 of them. Several states are
6 divided in two, and so each state has one, several
7 have two -- California, Texas, I think, are examples
8 of the latter -- and the NSA elects its own members,
9 sets its own rules, has its own directors, has its own
10 finances, sets its own budgets, sets its own fees and
11 is what?
12 According to USSF, when you look at
13 Rule 4011 at Page 74 of their rules, Part IV, it says,
14 The National State Association shall be autonomous in
15 matters not outlined in these bylaws or the bylaws of
16 the Federation.
17 What is not outlined in these bylaws
18 or the bylaws of Federation is anything having to do
19 with local play or competition within the state. What
20 is outlined has to do with interstate, regional,
21 international play. So you divide responsibilities
22 here between the National State Associations on the
23 one hand that are autonomous. They have the
24 responsibility in the states for all the local and
25 competition that goes on within that state.
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1 They only have to refer to USSF or
2 USYSA for competition that goes out. So you look,
3 Rule 4011 (1)(b)(6): Each National State Association
4 has the responsibility to provide and coordinate
5 opportunities for every player in every part of its
6 assigned territory to play soccer at the
7 developmental, intermediate and advanced levels.
8 That's the best expression you can
9 find in these rules for anybody having responsibility
10 to develop interest and participation in the sport.
11 It's with the NSAs. It's within the autonomous state
12 organizations. Be responsible to the persons in
13 amateur sports organizations it represents.
14 Rule 4011 (1)(b)(8). Again, the
15 National State Associations. Each National State
16 Association shall organize annually a State Soccer
17 Forum to coordinate activities and programs and
18 resolve disputes with independent local soccer
19 organizations, and the local chapters of affiliate,
20 other affiliate, and associate members.
21 So here it is in Rule 4011 (1)(b)(8),
22 the NSA, these autonomous state organizations are
23 authorized by USSF rules to set up state soccer forums
24 in each state to coordinate all the activities of
25 youth soccer and resolve disputes.
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1 I would like to ask Mr. Burton Haimes
2 to be a witness at this point to testify about the
3 activity of the state soccer forums. Mr. Haimes.
4 Does the panel intend to have
5 witnesses be sworn?
6 MR. ROWAN: Yes.
7 MS. BALDWIN: Yes, we do.
8 MR. GREGORY: Could Mr. Haimes be
9 sworn?
10 BURTON HAIMES,
11 the witness herein, having been first duly sworn to
12 state the whole truth, testified on his oath as
13 follows:
14 EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. GREGORY:
16 Q Mr. Haimes, I think we have been
17 through it, but could you briefly state your position
18 with AYSO?
19 A I'm the chairman of the Board of
20 Directors, and a member of the Board of Directors of
21 the American Soccer Organization.
22 Q All right.
23 A And I'm also a member of the Board of
24 Directors of the United States Soccer Federation.
25 Q I was going to ask you to explain
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1 that. You are a member of the Board of Directors of
2 the United States Soccer Federation?
3 A Since 1989.
4 Q Since 1989. And you've attended
5 meetings of the Board of Directors regularly since
6 then?
7 A Yes, I have.
8 Q And are you familiar with the reports
9 that are given to the United States Soccer Federation
10 regarding the activities of youth soccer?
11 A When they're given, I review them.
12 Q Do you know when the State Soccer
13 Forum concept was initiated by USSF?
14 A I believe that was part of the 1995
15 package of amendments.
16 Q And are you aware since 1995 of there
17 being any State Soccer Forum convened by any National
18 State Association member of USSF?
19 A To my knowledge, there have been none,
20 and if there have been any, no AYSO participant has
21 been invited.
22 Q So, Be responsible to the persons and
23 amateur sports organizations it represents. USSF
24 adopted a rule in 1995 to give that responsibility to
25 the National State Associations and it hasn't
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1 happened. This is a rule without any substance.
2 A It's also, Fred, a rule that states
3 that that state forum, and that state association is
4 going to, its purpose is to be an arbiter of disputes
5 between itself and the other bodies of the other
6 member organizations which might have disputes with
7 it.
8 Q You noticed that?
9 A Which creates a kind of irony in terms
10 of its neutral role. So maybe that's a reason why
11 they haven't implemented this rule.
12 Q Thank you.
13 Let's go the next slide, if you will.
14 The next responsibility, Coordinate
15 schedules to minimize conflicts in practices and
16 competitions. Article VII (1)(b).
17 Well, where does that go? That goes
18 one, to USYSA under Rule 4002 (3), at Page 73: U.S.
19 youth soccer shall conduct its own soccer programs and
20 shall coordinate but not interfere with programs
21 conducted by independent youth affiliate and associate
22 members as defined by Rule 2001 (1) and (5).
23 And look at the NSA's responsibility
24 there, 2016 (1)(f), and that you have to flip back and
25 forth -- and I'm sorry I didn't write these -- but you
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1 to have flip back to Page 12, actually, Page 13 where
2 you find the rule of the basic authority of the
3 National State Associations.
4 Here is one major requirement of a
5 national governing body; it's to coordinate schedules,
6 and minimize conflicts in practices and competitions,
7 but to coordinate.
8 The National State Associations, not
9 USSF, not USYSA, really, the National State
10 Associations shall coordinate activities and programs
11 with affiliate, non-affiliate, other affiliate and
12 associate members within each state. And in that
13 regard, you saw it earlier, the National State
14 Associations are autonomous.
15 4: Inform athletes of policy
16 matters. Article VII (1)(c).
17 We don't believe USSF has an organized
18 process to disseminate policy matters to youth players
19 or to reflect the views of youth players in its
20 policies except through representation by adult
21 administrators and athletes.
22 I'm sure that we'll hear from USSF, if
23 they think that's the case, but it's not found in
24 their rules.
25 The next slide. Point 5: Promptly act
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1 on requests to sanction international play.
2 Now, that, so far as youth soccer is
3 concerned is delegated to the NSA, Rule 9005 (2) (c)
4 which I see I just failed to give you.
5 MS. KELLY: 182.
6 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
7 The application process for a youth
8 team to participate in international play must first
9 go to the NSA and be approved by the NSA, and then to
10 USSF after approval by the NSA, assuming you get
11 approval from your NSA.
12 So the first authority in USSF that
13 has to approve or sanction play is not USSF at all,
14 it's an autonomous state association. It's another
15 member just like AYSO is another member of USSF. It's
16 delegated to certain members but not to all.
17 Number 6: Allow athletes to compete
18 internationally. Now, that's given to the NSAs in
19 Rule 4039. The NSAs, on Page 97, have to grant
20 permission for teams wishing go travel out of state
21 and out of the country. That's where it is.
22 Now, we go to Number 7 on our chart:
23 Provide equitable support for participation and
24 encouragement of women, Article VII (1)(f).
25 We're not here saying that USSF is
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1 somehow ignoring that particular responsibility, but
2 we are here to point out that the authority, the
3 responsibility for performing that duty doesn't rest
4 with USSF Board of Directors at all. It rests with
5 the other members of USSF, the National State
6 Associations in Rule 4011 (1)(b)(6) and Rule 4040.
7 It provides support and encouragement
8 for participation of handicapped players. Again,
9 we're not here to say that the USSF failed to do that,
10 but their Board of Directors doesn't have the
11 responsibility for it. They have delegated that to
12 the NSAs again.
13 Disseminate technical information.
14 Article VII (1)(h). I believe the USSF has no
15 organized process to perform this duty beyond the
16 teams and players registered with the NSAs.
17 Same is true with respect to Number
18 10: Support the development of sports medicine and
19 safety. I believe the USSF has no provision, no
20 process for conducting that duty beyond its own
21 registered members.
22 Number 11: Represent the U.S. in the
23 appropriate international sports federation. We
24 believe they did not delegate that.
25 Number 12: Establish national goals
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1 and encourage the attainment of those goals. Article
2 VII (3)(b).
3 Now, let's look to -- I will have to
4 give that to you, because I see we didn't get that
5 into the chart. The Inter-Youth Committee of the
6 National Board of Directors, Page 41 of your rules.
7 The Inter-Youth Committee is responsible to maintain
8 responsibility among the youth members of the
9 Federation. It's responsible for making
10 recommendations for the unification of all the youth
11 members. It's responsible for recommending procedures
12 for the interplay of youth members and the tournaments
13 and leagues of all other youth members. It's
14 responsible for recommending procedures for the joint
15 participation of all youth members in the Olympic
16 Development Program and National cups competition.
17 That is the responsibility of a
18 committee of the Board of directors of USSF.
19 Mr. Haimes, are you a member of the
20 Inter-Youth Committee?
21 A I have been a member since its
22 creation.
23 Q When was it created?
24 A It was originally as an ad hoc
25 committee, and I believe that was in '94, and then it
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1 was made a standing committee as a result of the
2 complaint filed with the USOC by SAY Soccer.
3 Q I forgot to go on to the next page,
4 Page 2.
5 In Part C, it states: The committee
6 shall meet not less than twice each year. A meeting
7 of the committee may be called by the chairman of the
8 committee or by any two members of the committee.
9 Who is the chairman?
10 A The current chairman, I believe, is
11 Virgil Lewis. The past chairman was Dr. Contiguglia.
12 Q How many times has the Inter-Youth
13 Committee met since it was formed?
14 A Never, in my knowledge. I have asked
15 for it to meet a couple of times, but it has never
16 met.
17 Q We believe USSF is not performing Part
18 12 at all except to the extent that it has delegated
19 that responsibility for the soccer forums in each
20 state, under Rule 4011(1)(b)(8) that you have already
21 looked at, and those haven't been conducted either.
22 So this just isn't happening.
23 Number 13: Coordinate amateur soccer
24 in the United States. Article VII, you've already
25 looked at Rule 2016 (1)(f) that requires the National
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1 State Associations to do this, that delegated that
2 authority to the National State Associations,
3 sanctioning international play, other than national
4 team competition and Olympics, it's delegated this
5 function to the NSAs completely. It's retained it for
6 Olympics and for national team play.
7 Part 15: Conduct competitions
8 including a national championship and establish
9 eligibility standards for that competition, Article
10 VII (3)(e).
11 USYSA gave the NSAs the gatekeeper
12 responsibility for their national tournaments and
13 cups. The NSAs recommend the teams and the
14 eligibility for a team to participate in the National
15 championships sponsored by USSF is that it be a
16 registered player, a registered team, and all
17 registered players in the NSAs. An AYSO team cannot
18 participate.
19 Item 16: Recommend players to
20 represent the United States in the Olympics and Pan
21 American Games. USSF has not delegated this duty, but
22 it has given to the NSAs the responsibility to
23 participate in national team selection.
24 I'm sorry, I will have to give that to
25 you in a minute. And we believe, AYSO believes, that
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1 it is basically ignoring AYSO players, and any player,
2 for that matter, who is not a registered player with
3 an NSA.
4 Number 17: Designate players to
5 represent the United States in amateur international
6 competitions. That's delegated to the NSAs in Rule
7 4039. You will find that, that's the permission to
8 travel. That's where it is.
9 The NSA's control who can travel
10 outside the United States or play international, play
11 in the United States.
12 So you have these authorities and
13 these duties given to the NGBs, the national governing
14 bodies, by the Amateur Sports Act, and with the
15 exception of a handful having to do with participating
16 in the international soccer organization, representing
17 the United States there, and with the exception of
18 designating players for the national team the
19 authorities and duties of the National Governing Body
20 for Soccer have been delegated to autonomous National
21 State Associations.
22 The National State Associations have
23 dominated the voting on the National Council of USSF.
24 Let's take a look at the way it works
25 out in terms of rights and responsibilities between
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1 the NSAs and AYSO. NSAs have the authority, duty and
2 the privilege to organize and conduct at the state and
3 local level Federation cups, competitions, training
4 programs, and the national team development/selection
5 programs. Those are the NSAs. Those are the
6 autonomous state organizations.
7 Delegated to them, the authority, duty
8 and the privilege to organize and conduct at the state
9 and local level, the things that the Amateur Sports
10 Act authorized USSF to do.
11 AYSO has no such rights or duties and
12 no right to participate in the NSA's activities in
13 this regard.
14 Well, Rule 2016 (2)(a)(1) says, The
15 AYSO has the right to participate in national cup
16 competitions. It qualifies it by stating that it must
17 comply with rules applicable to such competitions, and
18 then when you look at Rule 4, I mentioned it earlier,
19 an eligibility standard in Rule 4 for competing here
20 is that all the players and all the teams must be
21 registered with the NSAs. Registration with AYSO is
22 inadequate.
23 Those rules exclude all the teams
24 except those registered with the NSAs. The NSAs have
25 the right to coordinate activities with the affiliate,
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1 non-affiliate, other affiliate and associate members
2 within each state. And they are autonomous in this
3 respect.
4 They have the right to resolve
5 disputes between themselves and affiliates. AYSO has
6 no such rights or duties.
7 The NSAs have the right to conduct the
8 State Soccer Forum to resolve disputes and coordinate
9 the activities. They don't do it, as Mr. Haimes has
10 already pointed out, and AYSO can't do it.
11 Control who participates in
12 "sponsored" tournaments by fixing a participation fee
13 for players registered with an affiliate member even
14 where the tournament cost is entirely underwritten by
15 another organization.
16 These National State Associations
17 claim the right to go say somebody else's soccer
18 tournament can't proceed unless they sanction it, and
19 then they can only, they will only sanction it if they
20 charge AYSO players, for example, $4 a player to play,
21 when USSF, when USYSA-registered players aren't
22 charged anything for it. So they are discouraging
23 participation in the sport of soccer.
24 Number 5: Designate the teams to
25 participate in the U.S. Youth Soccer National
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1 Championships and determine the format for
2 establishing its representatives. All of that was
3 given to the NSA in Rule 4066(1). They are the gate
4 keepers. They're the ones who decide can proceed into
5 a national championships, and only players registered
6 with the NSAs can do that.
7 Number 6: Conduct an Olympic
8 development program for players registered with it.
9 AYSO was granted the right in 1989 to conduct its own
10 Olympic Development Program for players registered
11 with it, and they promised to send their coaches and
12 the people participating in the national team
13 selection process to AYSO's Olympic Development
14 Programs. They don't come to our competitions. They
15 don't come to our programs.
16 Number 7: Sponsor international
17 tournaments without approval of USSF and approve
18 international competitions sponsored by other soccer
19 organizations in their territory. That role was given
20 to the NSAs.
21 AYSO can sponsor an international
22 tournament only if it comes to the NSA and asks for
23 approval. The NSA can deny it in its full authority.
24 Where did it get that authority? That was an
25 authority that was given to the USSF as a national
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1 governing body and promptly delegated to the National
2 State Associations.
3 We've heard a lot about independence.
4 We have heard a lot about USYSA being independent.
5 Let's look at USYSA, I'm sorry. We
6 have heard a lot -- I misspoke -- we've heard a lot
7 from USSF about how USYSA is fully integrated. We
8 have been claiming that it is not. The USYSA itself,
9 which has been delegated under Section 3 of Article
10 103 of the Constitution on Page 2 of the handout that
11 you have: Pursuant and subject to the authority
12 delegated to it by the Federation, each division shall
13 be the administrative and coordinating body for the
14 sport in its respective area of responsibility...and
15 then it goes on, and have full authority of the
16 Federation to organize and manage Federation programs,
17 competitions and activities.
18 We have already seen how most of that
19 authority except for the regional, interstate and
20 national competitions was delegated straight down to
21 the NSAs, but this USYSA, the youth division of USSF,
22 USYSA has delegated the full authority of the
23 Federation to organize and manage Federation programs,
24 competitions and activities, because why, we're told,
25 because it is fully integrated.
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1 Let's start with this USYSA is a
2 separately incorporated incorporation, I think it's
3 incorporated in Tennessee with its principal place of
4 business, I believe, in Texas. USSF is a New York
5 corporation with its principal place of business in
6 Illinois.
7 USYSA officers and directors are
8 elected by its NSA members and not by USSF. USSF's
9 National Council has the power to remove certain
10 officers of USYSA.
11 Q Mr. Haimes, have you participated in
12 the USSF National Council since that rule was adopted?
13 A Well, I believe that's a recent rule,
14 I believe it was last year, it was put in because they
15 were concerned about this hearing, but to my
16 knowledge, that rule has never been invoked.
17 Q USSF has no process by which its
18 governing body, the National Board of Directors,
19 monitors and directs the work of USYSA.
20 Mr. Haimes, you have already testified
21 that the Inter-youth Committee of the Board of
22 Directors of USSF has not met. As a member of the
23 Board of Directors, have you been given any reports by
24 USYSA regarding the work it does to fulfill the powers
25 delegated to it by USSF?
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1 A None that I can remember.
2 Q Next, USYSA owns and controls its
3 assets and its financial accounts.
4 Next, USYSA establishes its own budget
5 and sets its own fees. Next USYSA establishes its own
6 voting allocation on USSF's National Council.
7 Let's look at the comparative
8 dependence/independence of the NSAs and AYSO, because
9 we have been told that AYSO doesn't need to subscribe
10 to the same rules and regulations and conform to the
11 same body of laws that the NSAs must do.
12 In order to become a NSA, a NSA must
13 submit its charters and bylaws to the USSF. In order
14 to become an affiliate, AYSO must submit its charter
15 and bylaws to USSF. Same thing.
16 The NSA must adopt charter or bylaw
17 changes required by USSF to conform with the USSF
18 rules, the Amateur Sports Act, and FIFA, the
19 international rules of soccer.
20 Now, it doesn't say that AYSO or an
21 affiliate must conform its laws to this, must conform
22 its rules changes. It just says that the affiliates
23 must comply with the Amateur Sports Act, with the USSF
24 Constitution and rules, and with FIFA. So we have to
25 conform to the same rules, the same Amateur Sports
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1 Act, and the same FIFA laws that the National State
2 Associations must conform to. There's no difference.
3 I didn't find an obligation, an
4 explicit obligation on the part of the NSAs to support
5 the national or international efforts of the USSF and
6 its teams. I didn't put any authority there. I have
7 no reason to think they don't do it, but an AYSO or
8 any affiliate is compelled to do so.
9 The NSAs must pay a fee per player and
10 submit financial statements sufficient to show that
11 they have combined with their financial obligation to
12 USSF, which is basically a financial obligation to pay
13 a fee based on the number of players they have. So
14 they have to show how much they've taken in, how many
15 players they have registered, and how much they've
16 taken in in registration and submit that information.
17 AYSO must pay an organization fee
18 determined by the National Board of Directors and the
19 National Council.
20 Now, a few years ago, up until 1995,
21 Mr. Haimes, what was the fee being charged AYSO by
22 USSF, to be an affiliate?
23 A AYSO paid the same fee as the USYSA
24 members which was 50 cents per player.
25 Q And that worked out to how much in
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1 1994, approximately?
2 A It was about $250,000.
3 Q At the National Annual Meeting of
4 USSF, was that fee reduced?
5 A In 1995?
6 Q 1995, yes.
7 A It was changed to a flat fee of $5,000
8 per year. It was probably the most editorialized, the
9 most bizarre meeting that I have seen in the sense
10 that it was one organization saying we're willing to
11 pay 250,000 for the rights and privileges we have, and
12 another organization saying no, we don't want you to
13 have those rights and privileges and pay only 5,000.
14 So, usually, you find a role reversal where people
15 want to pay a lower sum.
16 So it was quite correct at the 1995
17 annual meeting, the fee was reduced to 5,000; however,
18 in 1996, there was a rule change that said that the
19 Board of Directors would recommend the fee for both
20 the affiliates and non-affiliate members annually, and
21 then to be approved and passed upon by the National
22 Council at its national meeting.
23 In 1995, that fee was changed for the
24 other affiliates, which is another body, that are not
25 as involved on the national level as the affiliates,
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1 to 5,000 per 50,000 members, although the national
2 affiliate fee was not changed and de facto, there's
3 some question as to whether anything was actually
4 acted upon at the time. But the national affiliates,
5 are what we call now affiliates because our name was
6 changed in 1995, continue to pay the $5,000 fee.
7 At a recent board meeting in April, a
8 recommendation was made that the fee for the
9 affiliates be changed from a flat $5,000 to at least
10 the fee of the other affiliates, which would be $5,000
11 per 50,000 players, and if you, which would result in
12 a fee increase, if approved, for AYSO from 5,000 to
13 30,000; am I correct? To 60,000, mathematics, to
14 60,000.
15 My understanding, since I participated
16 in part of that meeting only by phone was that that
17 was, there was no action taken, but it was sent to the
18 affiliates as a group, which constitutes three at this
19 point, to come back with a recommendation to the July
20 board meeting right before the AGM, and then that
21 recommendation to be acted upon at the National
22 Council meeting at the AGM, which will be the day
23 after that.
24 Again, there was no discussion at that
25 time as to whether in changing the fee or considering
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1 a change in the fee, whether or not there should be
2 any change or any increase in the rights, privileges
3 or services attached to that.
4 Q Mr. Haimes, you said that it was being
5 discussed however, so that the fee of the affiliates,
6 the $5,000 flat fee would be changed to conform to
7 $5,000 per year for 50,000 players in order to have
8 parallel between the affiliates and the other
9 affiliates?
10 A We said at least, so theoretically,
11 you could argue that it should be greater, because
12 affiliates are more national in scope.
13 Q How many other affiliates are there?
14 A I believe there is only one, one of my
15 colleagues over there, two.
16 MR. MONACO: Other USA?
17 A You said other affiliates, that's
18 Cerebral Palsy, right, National Cerebral Palsy.
19 MR. MONACO: That's three.
20 MR. GREGORY: Well, we will get that
21 straightened out. We won't hang up on it.
22 Q So the amount of fee with no change in
23 rights or services to AYSO is in the discretion of
24 whatever the National Board of Directors recommends to
25 the National Council should be imposed on the
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1 affiliates in order to retain their affiliate status
2 in order to even be a member of USSF, and it bounces
3 around according to whim.
4 Number 4 -- I got the numbering and
5 the lettering switched on me. I can't remember why.
6 We'll just proceed on.
7 The NSAs have autonomous jurisdiction
8 in matters not outlined in USYSA bylaws or the bylaws
9 of the Federation. We have been through that once.
10 That means that as the international and interstate
11 competition of the National State Associations have to
12 defer to USYSA or the USSF, but within the state
13 competitions, they're autonomous. They're autonomous
14 as to all those duties delegated on them by the USSF.
15 AYSO has exclusive jurisdiction over
16 its own program except international competition,
17 under Rule 2016(2)(d).
18 Basically, within its jurisdiction,
19 and within their jurisdiction, their respective
20 jurisdiction, the states, the NSAs, and the rights of
21 AYSO are co-equal.
22 NSAs have an incorporation separate
23 from USSF as does AYSO. The NSAs have officers and
24 boards of directors elected by their members directly
25 and not subject to appointment by USSF, as does AYSO.
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1 So functionally as dependent or
2 independent, the profiles of the National State
3 Associations and AYSO aren't very different in terms
4 of their autonomy within their own jurisdiction.
5 In terms of the matters to which they
6 must conform, FIFA, the Amateur Sports Act, and the
7 rules of the USSF.
8 Going back to the National Council one
9 more time, let's look at what has happened now on
10 reasonable direct representation. AYSO has no
11 representation at all with any NSA. It's not a member
12 of any NSA. It's excluded from, well, it's not
13 excluded from, the State Soccer Forums just don't
14 happen. There's no discussion at the local level.
15 Whether you call it one form or another form, there is
16 just nothing happening in the states to which the AYSO
17 could have a voice. It has no representation
18 whatsoever with the National State Associations, most
19 of whom regard themselves as direct competitors with
20 AYSO.
21 At USYSA, AYSO is not considered a
22 member. If it were to affiliate with USYSA, it would
23 get a single vote, which we would contend -- on its
24 National Council, of some 500 votes -- we would
25 contend that would not be reasonable direct
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1 representation in any event.
2 So as to USYSA and the NSAs, to whom
3 all these powers have been delegated, affiliates, such
4 as AYSO, have no representation whatsoever, forget
5 reasonable direct representation. And that's why
6 delegation of these powers can't really occur, and
7 that's why they are prohibited under the Amateur
8 Sports Act.
9 In Article 7, Article 4, sorry,
10 Section 4, (c)(4): In order to be designated as the
11 national governing body, the national governing body
12 must demonstrate that it is autonomous in the
13 governance of its sport, and that it independently
14 determines and controls all matters central to such
15 governments, does not delegate such determination and
16 control.
17 If you are to have reasonable direct
18 representation on a national governing body, it must
19 be on a body of that national governing body that
20 determines the policy for the sport, that determines
21 how the sport is going to be operated, that includes
22 people. In USSF, you can't find the place. Your
23 National Council is the ultimate authority. We don't
24 have reasonable representation there.
25 The National Board of Directors is the
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1 governing body of USSF, and we're not contending here
2 today that we lack reasonable representation on the
3 National Board of Directors of USSF, but USSF is
4 dealing with professionals, international, other
5 things, and it's not dealing, it's not dealing at all
6 with where we're involved, with youth soccer in the
7 communities. It's not paying any attention to it.
8 It's delegated all of that to the National State
9 Associations, and it's given them autonomy and full
10 authority to do it, and it gets no feedback.
11 The National Governing Body of USSF
12 does not get told how it is performing its duties by
13 those people to whom it has delegated those duties.
14 So one more time on the National
15 Council representation. USYSA gets one
16 representative, one vote for every four players. I
17 said it wrong.
18 The one-to-four, the one-to-four ratio
19 in registration, 2.3 million to $550,000, these are
20 rough players dollars? Players?
21 MS. APCEL: Players.
22 MR. GREGORY: And the representation is
23 just 11 National Council votes for 550,000 versus 207
24 for 2.3 million.
25 On the National Board of Directors, we
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1 get one out of 30. On their Executive Committee which
2 performs between meetings and the National Board of
3 Directors, we have observer status only. We don't
4 have a vote, no affiliate has a vote. And on the
5 Foundation board, we have nothing. We have no
6 representation at all.
7 Let's look at the Foundation for a
8 moment. The Foundation was created for USSF with the
9 monetary rewards of World Cup '94, which were quite
10 large. USSF has assets roughly, including all of its
11 fixed assets, of one and a half million dollars,
12 whereas the foundation has assets mostly invested of
13 $57 million.
14 Now, this money was USSF'S money to
15 direct, and it directed it to a foundation; a
16 foundation over which it set up then independent
17 control and excluded voices from the rest of the
18 soccer community. The money available to grow the
19 sport of soccer today is being doled out by
20 representatives of the NSAs and USYSA, and it has no
21 voice from an affiliate or from another member of the
22 soccer community.
23 We will ask Mr. West later if he knows
24 what happened to that, but in any event, we say that
25 our representation -- can we go back to the last
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1 slide?
2 If we have to chase around looking for
3 the national governing body of this national governing
4 body, and we have to seek reasonable representation on
5 all the governing bodies that actually perform the
6 duties that were assigned to this national governing
7 body we would need an additional direct representation
8 on the Board of Directors, reasonable direct
9 representation here on the executive committee,
10 reasonable direct representation on the foundation
11 board, reasonable direct representation on the USYSA
12 board, reasonable direct representation on each of the
13 NSA boards and that shouldn't be required. That
14 shouldn't be part of the Amateur Sports Act.
15 We ask this panel and we ask the
16 Olympic Committee to consider why, when there's a rule
17 that prohibits the delegation of the authorities of
18 the national governing body why is this national
19 governing body then permitted to take its authorities,
20 put us on the Board of Directors and then delegate all
21 the work away, all the powers away that we expected to
22 participate in, so that we don't even get a voice in
23 how those things are happening. We ask that the
24 delegation of authority by the Board of Directors of
25 USSF be rescinded so that the inter-youth committee of
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1 the Board of Directors becomes the authority for how
2 youth soccer policy is to be developed and implemented
3 in the United States.
4 MR. GREGORY: I'm at a breaking point.
5 And I haven't broken yet, I'm at a breaking point, and
6 I probably exceeded my -- the ability to put
7 information in right now.
8 If this is a convenient time for a
9 break, I can transition to another subject.
10 MS. BALDWIN: Let's just take a quick
11 five-minute break.
12 (Brief recess taken from 11:35 to
13 11:45.)
14 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. Let's get started
15 again now. We will break at 12:30 for lunch, and
16 reconvene at 2:00 from lunch, so there will be an hour
17 and a half lunch break from 12:30 until 2:00.
18 Are you ready to continue?
19 MR. GREGORY: Yes, thank you.
20 Thank you very much. Unless my
21 colleague, Mr. Alkalay has questions of Mr. Haimes,
22 who is not back in the room -- do you have questions
23 of Mr. Haimes at this point?
24 MR. ALKALAY: Yeah, I do. Is Burt
25 going to be testifying any further? I don't want to
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1 interrupt your --
2 MR. GREGORY: No, I think I'm ready to
3 move to another point and with the panel's permission
4 go to the next subject, but if there's something, I
5 don't want to preclude Mr. Haimes' testimony.
6 MR. ALKALAY: Is he going to be
7 around?
8 MR. GREGORY: He will be here, he's not
9 leaving.
10 MR. ALKALAY: And he will be here
11 tomorrow as well?
12 MR. GREGORY: Yes.
13 MS. BALDWIN: So rather than
14 cross-examine him now you'd rather...
15 MR. ALKALAY: I will wait.
16 MS. BALDWIN: It's your call.
17 My next witness then will be -- we
18 just resolved the problem. You're not the witness
19 right now.
20 MS. BALDWIN: No, you're not right now,
21 but he has said, he will be here for the duration of
22 the hearing, and that the attorney for the USSF may
23 call you at a later time for his cross-examination.
24 MR. HAIMES: Yeah, I have a 3-something
25 plane tomorrow because of the time difference, so if
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1 you can accommodate that, that would be great.
2 MR. ALKALAY: Sure.
3 Then the next topic that we will
4 address is a history of, is a time line of the dispute
5 between AYSO and USSF. To show that there have been
6 many attempts by AYSO to deal with the organization's
7 problems in USSF, and to assist us in understanding
8 that, I would like to call Mr. Don West.
9 DON WEST,
10 the Witness herein, having been first duly sworn to
11 state the whole truth, testified on his oath as
12 follows:
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. GREGORY:
15 Q Mr. West, could you please state who
16 you are, and what your experience with AYSO and with
17 soccer has been.
18 A My name is Donald West. I have served
19 in the past as past president of AYSO. I have served
20 on the board of the United States Soccer Federation.
21 I have served on numerous committees of the United
22 States Soccer Federation over the past 15, 16 years.
23 I come from a background having played soccer in
24 college, so I come from the sport.
25 Q Have you participated over the years
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1 in discussions between AYSO and USSF over the manner
2 in which USSF performs its duties as the national
3 governing body for soccer?
4 A Yes, I have.
5 Q Can you just tell us why, summarize
6 why those discussions have taken place?
7 A When I joined the board in 1979 of
8 AYSO, I was curious of why AYSO was not part of the
9 national Federation. I inquired, tried to find out
10 something of the history. As a member of the sport, I
11 was interested in seeing if the organization could get
12 involved, and I requested permission from the board in
13 January of 1980, and received permission to reopen the
14 dialogue with the federation, and I did that by
15 contacting Gene Edwards, who happened to live, he was
16 then chairman, he lived in Milwaukee, I lived on the
17 north shore of Chicago in Lake Forest, so we were an
18 hour apart, and I went up and I talked with Gene about
19 the history, about the problems, and whether there
20 would be any possible reconciliation.
21 I was interested because, as I came to
22 find out, the greater majority of players were not
23 part of the Federation, and I came from a perspective
24 that said, in my judgment the sport was best served if
25 all players could have some exposure to being part of
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1 a Federation in some manner so the sport could, in
2 effect, draw from all players, and then select its
3 best teams from the broader background.
4 With that in mind, I have pursued on
5 behalf of AYSO, and with other members of the AYSO
6 board, over the past 15 years of long sojourn to see
7 if there wasn't a way we could persuade the Federation
8 to broaden its membership, broaden its involvement,
9 because it is axiomatic in this country, I believe,
10 that if you are disenfranchised as a group, you have
11 no meaningful participation, and it seemed to me that
12 without an opportunity for all of the various groups
13 to have participation, and that involved more than
14 just representation, it involved an active voice,
15 there would never be the broad kind of representation
16 that soccer deserved in this country that would allow
17 it to grow, and I have been driven by that. I have
18 been involved with that, and I think all who have been
19 exposed to my involvements would acknowledge that I
20 have done everything I could to persuade, cajole,
21 whatever I could, to help the Federation move into the
22 20th Century, and the 21st Century, so it would
23 properly fulfill its role.
24 Now, we'll go through the time line.
25 Enough for the opening statement.
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1 Q Thank you, Mr. West. Just
2 preliminary, are you aware of how many soccer players
3 there are in America today?
4 Q Youth soccer players?
5 A Youth soccer players, according to the
6 supporting industry, represent something over 12
7 million soccer players in the United States, playing
8 in various programs that would include the Y, the
9 Parks and Recs, the PALS, National Service, the USSF,
10 AYSO, and local programs.
11 Q All right. Have you, you have seen
12 the time line that's in front of you, and I think that
13 it was part of the handout that each of the panel
14 members has.
15 A Right.
16 Q Did you participate in the preparation
17 of this time line?
18 A I did.
19 Q Do you believe it is an accurate
20 representation of the facts that are set forth on it?
21 A I do.
22 Q All right. With the panel's
23 permission, I think it would be very useful for
24 Mr. West to proceed and explain in greater detail some
25 of the points that are outlined on this time line, and
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1 if, if I may then give, without further direction, let
2 Mr. West tell his, tell this time line from his
3 experience.
4 A The first page is really the early
5 history when AYSO was founded, operated in southern
6 California as part of junior programs out there. The
7 1967 date focuses on the cause by which AYSO, and the
8 Federation initially parted ways, because of a
9 participation in a warm-up match prior to a
10 non-sanctioned league. There apparently were some
11 attempts after that to reestablish an association, but
12 the personalities were such that that was not
13 accomplished.
14 If you go to Page 2, that simply
15 reflects the adoption of the Amateur Sports Act, and
16 the appointment of USSF under that as the national
17 governing body.
18 1980, I have already referred to when
19 I talked with Gene Edwards, and he asked John Berger,
20 who was then the vice chairman of the youth, to head a
21 committee with two or three other people to pursue the
22 possible dialogue with AYSO.
23 Out of that whole conversation came a
24 joint board meeting and the AYSO headquarters in 1981,
25 where we attempted to approve an initial working
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1 arrangement, where we would have cooperation in
2 coaching, cooperation in refereeing, a form of
3 interplay, and because we were asked to start, we
4 would initially come into the youth council and pay a
5 fee to the youth council.
6 The AYSO board met and voted upon it
7 in the presence of the USSF, of the USYSA board, and
8 then they in turn adjourned, and Mr. Haimes and I sat
9 in on their board meeting while they adopted the
10 resolution approving this. Three months later, two
11 months later, I received a letter from Don Greer, who
12 repudiated that the board had actually approved that,
13 and that was binding upon them.
14 So I immediately went back to Gene
15 Edwards, and since there was an USSF board meeting the
16 next month in Chicago at the O'Hare Hilton, I asked
17 for permission to come before the USSF board. I laid
18 out the correspondence, I laid out what had happened,
19 and I asked for some relief at the national Federation
20 level.
21 A response was that Gene appointed
22 Keith Walker to head a committee. Keith was then the
23 executive director, and there were five members on
24 that committee, and I was selected as one of the
25 five. That was my first committee I served on. The
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1 other four were from the Federation, and I was
2 designated to represent not only AYSO, but all of the
3 so-called outside organizations and throughout this
4 whole history of committees that I have served on, I
5 have represented and been in communication with the
6 YMCA, they were located in Chicago, with the Parks and
7 Recs people, with the Police Athletic League, and I
8 attempted to try and bring the voice of all of those
9 organizations that were not actively involved or felt
10 they were disenfranchised by the Federation.
11 The particular reports of any one of
12 the committees are not necessarily all that
13 significant. They were attempts to try and integrate
14 to gain a greater involvement and get a broader
15 involvement of each of these organizations of which
16 AYSO was one. Obviously, I represented AYSO, I was
17 the senior officer of AYSO, and I spoke for AYSO, but
18 I did also speak for the others.
19 We were trying to find the means where
20 both the voice would be heard and interplay, because
21 players, as you know, do not focus when they're young
22 kids on what organization they join. They want to
23 play, and they join the local organization. And
24 whether or not they have an opportunity to be seen by
25 the Federation for the broader programs is
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1 circumstantial.
2 They don't understand the politics
3 adults set up for youth programs. They aren't
4 appreciative of them, and it is usually too late
5 before some outstanding kids realize, maybe they
6 didn't know where they were supposed to go. And if
7 that information is not communicated and easily
8 disseminated, we felt there was a problem, in terms of
9 having kids be part of the sport of soccer, and that's
10 what the whole Amateur Sports Act, as we understood it
11 was about, the broadest possible representation in our
12 country.
13 In 1983, this committee reported back
14 to the board. The board recommended approval. The
15 National Council, as I recall, tabled it. It is
16 coincidental, it's on the time line, but that was the
17 same time in which the United States Youth Soccer
18 Organization was incorporated separately in the towns.
19 We continued on. When it was tabled,
20 we tried to figure out other ways to work it out, and
21 I will say that there were some personality disputes
22 that caused the problem. Don Greer felt because I had
23 gone direct to the board of the USSF, he could not
24 deal with me. Don Greer stepped down as the chairman,
25 and Marty Mankamyer became chairman of the USYSA.
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1 Marty and I had a very good
2 relationship. She's here. We've been friends all the
3 way through.
4 MS. MANKAMYER: They didn't spell my
5 name right.
6 MR. WEST: They didn't?
7 MR. GREGORY: It's his fault.
8 MS. MANKAMYER: That's okay. For the
9 record, that's not my name.
10 A And we renewed the conversation to see
11 if there were ways we could expand and do certain
12 things, and, in fact, we came fairly close. There was
13 one proposal that our board approved, and as I recall
14 them, when we met in San Francisco, you met with them
15 and got one vote for your approval, premier board,
16 where we tried to work out a broadening of the
17 relationship between the two organizations where we
18 would cooperate in many areas.
19 When that didn't work then Marty was
20 replaced as chairman.
21 MR. GREGORY: Excuse me, Bob. Do you
22 want to pass it out?
23 MR. GREGORY: If we can. At this
24 point, are we on Exhibit 3?
25 (Claimant's Exhibit 4 was marked.)
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1 MR. GREGORY: What you have is the
2 proposal that we worked through. Tim Thompson, who
3 was then the national executive director who sent
4 this. It went to members of the executive committee,
5 but it went to Marty for her board.
6 This was ultimately, what we took to
7 the point of basic approval, although it never did
8 finally get approved. You have more issues in here.
9 Q Up unto the green sheet, the first
10 section walks through the areas that we were going to
11 cooperate on, we looked at our budgets, we looked at
12 our organizations. We looked at the areas as to how
13 we could cooperate, at the issues involved. I'm going
14 to jump you all the way back to Page 12.
15 We dealt with marketing issues, how
16 those were affected. We dealt with, on Page 14,
17 training issues, how we would train, where we could
18 cooperate, where we could do things in training.
19 Page 15, we talked about our
20 philosophies, we talked about the markets, where we
21 were dealing with different types of players, and we
22 were legitimately and actively trying to figure out
23 ways in which we could work together and begin to
24 provide a framework that would open up the Federation,
25 and the youth programs to a broader base, and I think
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1 that it is important because there are all different
2 shapes in which our conversations take place.
3 Unfortunately, and what is the
4 repeated theme throughout this is, even though we have
5 come to tentative agreement after tentative agreement,
6 none of them have ever been effective, and that's why
7 we're here. It's not for lack of attempts, and it's
8 not for lack of good faith on both sides at times, but
9 the structure of the organization requires some of
10 these to go to votes, and then you start to look at
11 how the membership is structured, how the votes are
12 cast, and you get to a point where it is almost
13 impossible to overcome the present structure, because
14 now you start dealing with vested interests that don't
15 have a desire to see the changes that may be
16 recommended by their various leaderships.
17 After this did not succeed, then,
18 Werner Fricker, who had become the chairman of the
19 Federation established a committee with Scott
20 LeTellier, and I have used the names of the people.
21 That committee was broadened to 9 people, and again I
22 represented all of the outside groups. And that
23 committee in 1986 came back to the annual meeting,
24 recommended restructuring of categories to broaden the
25 outside organization involvement, with more
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1 representative voting, again, coaching, and
2 refereeing, and interplay, we're all seen as keys to
3 making this be an effective involvement so that all
4 these organizations could feel, and actually have an
5 effective role in the Federation.
6 The National Council, as a whole,
7 adopted this in principle, and as a result of it,
8 Werner Fricker then asked Hank desBordes to set up a
9 new commission to figure out the legislation that it
10 would take, the drafting of the bylaws to try and
11 bring this to pass. That committee was a 13-member
12 committee.
13 Again, I served as the sole outsider
14 in that committee, and we attempted to restructure the
15 rules and the bylaws of the Federation to see if we
16 could bring the past, of broadening of the Federation.
17 The same time, AYSO submitted a
18 request for direct affiliation with USSF, and that was
19 tabled pending the resolutions of the proposals of the
20 board committee.
21 If you would go back to your separate
22 packet right after the first 15 pages, you will see a
23 letter that I wrote to the various members suggesting
24 to them the time was now to give me all their
25 suggestions. I met with Parks and Rec. I met with
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1 the Y. I met with the people from PALs. I was
2 simply, and that simply shows you I was attempting to
3 function on behalf of a number of groups.
4 It was not solely an AYSO concern, it
5 was a concern of everybody involved in the broader
6 soccer community. We came back in July of 1987 with a
7 whole series of bylaws, amendments and rule changes to
8 try and affect what this committee felt was necessary
9 to bring about the changes to broaden the Federation.
10 At that time, USYSA came up with its
11 own set of amendments, which effectively precluded the
12 enactment of the rules and requests made by the
13 desBordes Commission, and it was done again, because,
14 if you look at the voting strength, there was no way
15 to overcome, given the casting of the membership.
16 And so as a result of the failure, we
17 felt we had made good faith tries. We had worked with
18 three commissions at this point. We had gone through
19 it, and that was what prompted the first filing of the
20 AYSO request for mediation. We had exhausted, as we
21 saw, all of the entities, and as a result of that, we
22 were brought here to Denver where we had a day-long
23 session, and we, again, reestablished many of the
24 things that were talked about in these prior
25 commissions. USSF agreed to again relook at their
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1 bylaws to implement this agreement, and in June of '88
2 the bylaws that were prepared were transmitted.
3 When that did not work, and when they
4 were unwilling to go forward with it we then filed our
5 formal complaint in 1988 with USOC.
6 Again, we had been through so many
7 attempts where we had gone up to the line, thought we
8 had agreements, and then, for various reasons, they
9 could never be implemented that we concluded there was
10 no other way to proceed but to come to the Olympic
11 Committee, because even though we had ongoing
12 conversations with the Federation, we had served on
13 committees, we had done everything we knew what to do,
14 we could never get to the point of resolution.
15 The 1989 page shows that the USOC,
16 Barron Pittenger and Ron Rowan sat with us, and worked
17 out what amounted to the 1989 agreement, and based on
18 that we agreed to withdraw our complaint.
19 MR. GREGORY: Excuse me. We're at five
20 then? Part of the attachments to the complaint
21 include the 1989 agreement. I have extra copies, for
22 anybody else who wants a copy right now.
23 MR. TOLES: You said it was attached to
24 what?
25 MR. GREGORY: It is attached to our
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1 complaint.
2 MS. KELLY: It's number 9 in your
3 original.
4 MR. GREGORY: Thank you. You will see,
5 in essence, what the '89 agreement provided. Again,
6 it deals with membership, because if you are
7 disenfranchised, you never have an effective way of
8 participating and being involved.
9 It dealt with assisting and being
10 involved with the player selection program for
11 national teams, how to bring players from the broader
12 sector of the soccer community into these types of
13 competitions. It dealt with participating in cups.
14 It dealt with rules that would preclude, what we were
15 beginning to run into, rules prohibiting interplay,
16 and I might just say as an aside -- because too often
17 these types of legal proceedings are done without the
18 full setting -- very often club programs were simply
19 the results of groups of parents, many times having
20 started as AYSO parents, who wanted to see their kids
21 play at a different level of select play.
22 And many of these boards at the outset
23 were identical boards. They ran a community program,
24 and they ran both the AYSO program, and they ran the
25 club program. They had kids in both programs, and so
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1 we were dealing with the reality of how we work with
2 the programs so they could fit together.
3 As we get to the 100 percent rule, as
4 the programs grew, then there was the exclusionary
5 adoption, but we were dealing at a local level. We
6 were reflecting what was going on at a local level,
7 what was needed, so soccer could be played. Not only
8 for us, again, the same thing was happening with the
9 Y, with Park and Recs, and as soccer grew within this
10 country, and as it spread, we were trying to
11 effectively expand the Federation's programs or
12 encourage them to expand it so that the broader
13 membership of soccer players in this country could
14 effectively participate.
15 Ultimately, what happens is that the
16 rules -- and you will see on this separate sheet here--
17 there was a special meeting held in February of 1989
18 in Seattle. And at a rather stormy meeting where the
19 Federation is told they have little chance of staying
20 the NGB if they don't start broadening their base,
21 they reluctantly adopt the rules.
22 It was probably among the most
23 controversial meetings, and I would observe two
24 things: Now, I had been to probably more national
25 meetings of the USSF over the past 17 years than I
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1 think any representative on their board has been to.
2 It became my calling in life, I think, to attend the
3 annual and the mid winter meetings since 1980.
4 Bob, I don't know if you have been to
5 all of them since then, but you may be the one
6 exception, but I certainly had a full taste of what
7 went on. And in that particular meeting in February,
8 the concern was that we were fighting over power and
9 money. That was the perception, and that we were
10 somehow trying to take their power and their money,
11 and I think that in some ways, that may still be their
12 perception today that all we want is a bigger share of
13 the power pot or the money pot.
14 And I think that you have to
15 understand, and they have made a point, AYSO was very
16 philosophically grounded, and I will take along with
17 Burt Haimes much of that representation. We have a
18 very definite view that sports are best served if kids
19 have a chance to participate and grow, and out of that
20 broad base, there will be elite athletes who will
21 rise.
22 You don't always groom them as kids,
23 you don't always select them as kids. The Russians
24 tried to. That may be effective. We feel that if you
25 expose the broadest number of kids to the sport,
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1 sooner or later you will begin to see who those good
2 athletes are. And if you give them proper coaching
3 and proper training, those players will evolve.
4 I have had a chance to compete at top
5 levels of sports in a couple sports in this country.
6 And I think as I viewed sports, my goal was not to set
7 a narrow select program going, but to see at least at
8 the entry level, the broadest-based participation.
9 And if you read this in detail you will see, we were
10 prepared to support the Federation, finance and do
11 what was helpful, so that when you get up to the
12 select team programs of the upper level, we were not
13 opposed to having them do what they did well in
14 supporting that, but it was the preconclusion of the
15 broader base, and in a meaningful voice, so that
16 people feel like there's a Federation to participate
17 in, that keeps driving this back.
18 Anyway, reluctantly, they adopted the
19 '89 agreement. Under force, they adopted it, and I
20 think that that isn't the best way because they were
21 not comfortable with it, and we have been struggling
22 with it ever since then, but it was an attempt to go
23 forward.
24 By 1991, there were various attempts,
25 but the guidelines were never really implemented.
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1 There was lip service. They had adopted token rules,
2 they will point to various things, but the
3 effectuation of what was intended has never been fully
4 put into play.
5 By 1992, we filed other rules trying
6 to open this up, and because Alan Rothenberg had now
7 become the chairman, and because Alan Rothenberg had
8 become an AYSO parent, and because Alan Rothenberg in
9 part got his success as being elected chairman of the
10 USSF with the AYSO votes, we felt we had at least an
11 ear where he would hear and listen to what we were
12 trying to do.
13 He agreed he would call a
14 constitutional convention if we would step back, and
15 so we did. And I suppose the closest we came to it
16 was in 1993 when the USSF organized and held a soccer
17 summit in Chicago in furtherance of that commitment to
18 call a constitutional convention.
19 In that -- and do we have in here the
20 mission statements? If you go back in your packet --
21 and I have skipped over some correspondence -- if you
22 will go back to where you see applied theory, Dale
23 Lefever was writing, and I served on the strategic
24 planning committee for the Soccer Summit --
25 But I think it's important to see that
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1 when the broader sport is represented, what comes out
2 of it, and what are the thoughts of soccer, and you
3 will see the vision statement and the mission
4 statement, the process in which the soccer summit
5 functioned was there were 300-and-some people there.
6 We had Dale Lefever as a facilitator.
7 That was set up by the Federation. This was a
8 Federation program. They did have people from all
9 different forums, the body as a whole rated what they
10 felt was important for soccer in this country, and
11 then committees broke down and did it, and ultimately
12 a small committee drafted this vision statement, and,
13 in particular, two people probably were the primary
14 wordsmiths.
15 You can see the vision statement
16 here. How soccer should gain its excellence and its
17 preeminence. I don't think there's any disagreement
18 in this room that that was the vision.
19 And then we went into the mission
20 statement. How this should be accomplished, and I
21 would say that the two primary draftsmen were very
22 pleased, because Hank Steinbrecher, who sits on that
23 side of the table, and I were responsible for the
24 committee, and I think we had, in terms of core
25 values, and in terms of the things we were trying to
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1 see the Federation become an absolute agreement in
2 principle as to where we should go.
3 And I think this thing that drives us,
4 that concerns us, is that what was envisioned never
5 took place. It got sidetracked one more time. And I
6 think Hank would say, and I think I can speak for both
7 of us, we were proud as could be of this, and what
8 happened at that summit, and where we thought things
9 would go.
10 It hasn't gone, and that's why we're
11 here again. And because what were the goals, what
12 were set up, and what was tried has never worked, and
13 because of the World Cup we all backed off in pushing
14 our claims too hard, because we too wanted World Cup
15 to succeed. We pulled back. As a partial token, the
16 inter-youth committee was established to try and do it
17 and resolve some of the problems and see whether they
18 could revolve that way.
19 Ultimately, we come to '95. Rule
20 changes are again submitted by USYSA that defeat what
21 all of the discussions are, and we come to the point
22 where we file our complaint.
23 Any specific part of this may not be
24 that significant, but I think when taken as a whole,
25 you will understand why we are here. We have gone up,
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1 you have mediated, you have worked out and negotiated
2 agreements. Time and again we have tried, and it is
3 our opinion that there is no other way to proceed but
4 to come to this panel and to the USOC.
5 You are charged with protecting the
6 interests of sports in this country, and we feel that
7 without proper representation the gist of this whole
8 complaint is that when you are disenfranchised, when
9 you do not have proper representation, when you do not
10 have proper involvement -- and I say that not just for
11 AYSO, but for YMCA, for Parks and Recs, and they will
12 say, oh, they're members, but they are token
13 memberships -- they are not meaningful involvements in
14 the life of the Federation, and to say that you can
15 join our National State Associations is not an
16 answer.
17 It is not an answer for any sport,
18 because at the entry level, you have to allow the
19 broader base to come to have a meaningful
20 participation, and without it, soccer will never
21 amount to what it can be. We'll always be a quarter
22 of what we should be. And I think it is our concern,
23 and why we are here today, that we ask the Olympic
24 Committee to either require, now, the Federation to
25 change, or to relook at what or who the Federation
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1 will be.
2 It is not that AYSO wants to be the
3 Federation. It is that we want the sport of soccer
4 opened up so all players can participate and have a
5 chance to proceed through the ranks and serve this
6 country if they have that talent at the upper levels.
7 Ask your questions.
8 Q I have only one. Is this a letter
9 that Werner Fricker directed to the affiliates in June
10 of 1990? It's on Exhibit 6.
11 A Yes, this is the letter. This dealt
12 with the specific problems of interplay. It also goes
13 to reflect part of the problem that all of the
14 technical things that you heard during the first part
15 of the day, were delegation. The Federation rates
16 with moral suasion, but they really have no ability to
17 ensure that interplay can take place, that those
18 things happened. Because of the way they're
19 structured, it limits the effectiveness of putting
20 into place what needs to happen so the sport can
21 really function.
22 MR. GREGORY: And I would like to offer
23 the Fricker letter as Exhibit 6.
24 I have no further questions of you,
25 Mr. West. Thank you very much.
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1 If my colleague, Mr. Alkalay, has
2 further questions...
3 MR. ALKALAY: It's 12:25. Rather than
4 start, I would prefer, if we could, to break down.
5 MS. BALDWIN: We'll break now, and
6 start at five until two.
7 MR. GREGORY: Trade off.
8 (Recessed from 12:25 to 1:55 for the
9 noonhour.)
10 BALDWIN: Is everyone waiting ready to
11 continue? Let us begin. Did we find her?
12 MR. ALKALAY: We'll start.
13 MR. GREGORY: We've concluded our
14 examination of Mr. West, so if my colleague,
15 Mr. Alkalay would like to cross examine him.
16 MR. ALKALAY: I just have a few
17 questions.
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. ALKALAY:
20 Q I think you testified that there are
21 really deep philosophical differences between AYSO, on
22 the one hand, and the Federation on the other; is that
23 right?
24 A I think you have characterized it. I
25 said I think there are philosophical differences in
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1 how we might approach the structuring of the
2 Federation, yes, and in how I would approach the
3 bringing of players into the game of soccer.
4 Q Let me read something to you, and I'm
5 going to quote: The specific and primary purposes for
6 which this corporation is formed are to educate and
7 develop young people in body and character, and to
8 combat community deterioration, and juvenile
9 delinquency through the operation of youth soccer
10 programs, both in the United States and any foreign
11 country or territory.
12 Do you recognize that quote?
13 A It's probably a quote from the AYSO
14 materials, but it may be something from the
15 Federation. I don't recognize it.
16 Q It comes from AYSO Articles of
17 Incorporation, doesn't it?
18 A Okay.
19 Q And do you harbor the view then, that
20 a philosophy such as that shows that AYSO conducts
21 programs at a level of efficiency appropriate for the
22 selection of amateur athletes that represents the
23 United States in international competition?
24 A I don't think it precludes it.
25 Q And isn't it a fact, Mr. West, that
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1 certainly throughout your association, which I guess
2 dates back to --
3 A 1977.
4 Q -- 1977, AYSO has consistently
5 marketed that difference? That is, they have said to
6 the soccer community, children first, soccer second,
7 correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And in connection with that
10 philosophy, that's what they've used to try to recruit
11 players to the AYSO organization, isn't that right?
12 A That's part of what we use, yes.
13 Q Well, it's not so much part of what
14 you use, it is the essence of the organization's
15 philosophy, isn't it?
16 A That children are first?
17 Q And soccer comes second.
18 A Soccer is a part of the vehicle by
19 which we attract children, yes.
20 Q Participation is what is important;
21 winning isn't?
22 A We encourage participation over
23 winning, yes.
24 Q Now, you have talked about the concept
25 that the United States Soccer Federation isn't broad
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1 based. I think I may be paraphrasing your testimony,
2 but I think you used that terminology in --
3 A I will accept your characterization.
4 Q Okay. Do you know who the current
5 members of the United States Soccer Federation are and
6 their National State Associations?
7 A Where you and I differ is that you do
8 not have organizations that are members.
9 Q Mr. West, I know this isn't a trial,
10 and I'm, we're not following evidentiary rules, but
11 there's a very, very specific question.
12 Do you know who all the members are?
13 A No, I do not personally know who all
14 the members are.
15 Q Do you know who the associate members
16 are of the Federation?
17 A I have read the list, but I can't sit
18 here and reiterate it to you.
19 Q Do you know that the Armed Forces
20 Sports Committee is an associate member?
21 A I have been aware of that.
22 Q Do you know that the Hall of Fame
23 members are members?
24 A I would accept that.
25 Q Do you know that the ^ Maccabeah USA
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1 Sports of Israel is a member?
2 A No, I did not know that.
3 Q Did you know that the National
4 Federation of State High Schools is a member?
5 A I was aware of that.
6 Q Do you know that the National
7 Intercollegiate Soccer Officials Association is a
8 member?
9 A I didn't know that specifically.
10 Q Did you know that the National Soccer
11 Coaches Association of America is a member?
12 A I'm aware of that.
13 Q Did you know that the Soccer Industry
14 Council of America is a member?
15 A I'm aware of that.
16 Q How about Soccer in the Streets?
17 A I'm aware of that.
18 Q And Special Olympics?
19 A I'm aware of that.
20 Q In addition to AYSO, do you know who
21 the other affiliate members are of the United States
22 Soccer Federation?
23 A I'm aware of some of them.
24 Q Do you know that SAY is an affiliate
25 member?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q And that the United States Futsol
3 Federation is a member?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You knew that as well?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Now, you also know that there is a
8 professional division, correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And did you know that in that
11 professional division that the American Professional
12 Soccer League is a member?
13 A Yes.
14 Q The Continental Indoor Soccer League?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Major League Soccer?
17 A Yes.
18 Q National Professional Soccer League?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And the United States Interregionals
21 Soccer League?
22 A I wasn't familiar with that.
23 Q Okay. Now in addition to that we've
24 talked about National State Associations. And I think
25 you heard Mr. Gregory talk about how there are 55
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1 National State Associations. --
2 A Correct.
3 Q -- in the youth division.
4 A Right.
5 Q Do you know how many National State
6 Associations are members of the amateur division?
7 A A few of the numbers differ, but I
8 can't tell you right now.
9 Q It's 50, isn't it?
10 A I would accept that.
11 MR. TOLES: 54.
12 MR. ALKALAY: I'm sorry, 55 -- thank
13 you, 53.
14 A We both stand corrected.
15 Q Now, are you aware that -- are you
16 aware that there are soccer organizations that have
17 joined National State Associations?
18 A I am.
19 Q And they're full members of those
20 National State Associations?
21 A I was unaware of what the specifics of
22 their membership were.
23 Q You didn't know that?
24 A No.
25 Q So that when you testified before that
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1 so much of the soccer community is disenfranchised
2 from participating in the United States Soccer
3 Federation activities, you were unaware of all the
4 organizations that belong to the National State
5 Associations?
6 A I don't take as much comfort as you do
7 in the technical membership, so I accept what you say.
8 Q That's your personal opinion, correct?
9 A As is yours.
10 Q We harbor some disagreement.
11 A Differences of opinion on that.
12 Q Yes.
13 A Yes, we agree on that.
14 Q Were you aware that Parks and
15 Recreation had joined quite a number of National State
16 Associations?
17 A I'm aware some have.
18 Q Did you know that the Boys and Girls
19 Clubs of America have joined many National State
20 Associations?
21 A I'm aware of some of them.
22 Q Did you know that the YMCA have joined
23 many National State Associations?
24 A I'm aware that -- some of that.
25 Q Did you know that was also true of the
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1 CYO?
2 A I'm aware that some of those have.
3 Q Police Athletic League?
4 A I'm aware that some of those have.
5 Q Boys and Girl Scouts?
6 A No.
7 Q Do you know what the TOPS programs is?
8 A I have heard it. I can't tell you
9 offhand.
10 Q But did you know that they are members
11 of many National State Associations?
12 A No, I wasn't aware of that.
13 Q And were you aware -- do you know what
14 Soccer Start is?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you know that Soccer Start was a
17 member of quite a few National State Associations?
18 A It would not surprise me.
19 Q Okay. Well, when you say it wouldn't
20 surprise you, you did say before that many soccer
21 organizations were disenfranchised. Did I leave out
22 any --
23 A 75 percent of the kids still do not
24 belong.
25 Q Did I leave out any soccer
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1 organizations?
2 MR. GREGORY: Excuse me, Your Honor,
3 Madam Chairman, I forget where I am. If Mr. Alkalay
4 is going to carry on with this diatribe, I wish he
5 would allow Mr. West to complete his answer and not
6 argue so much on a personal level.
7 MR. ALKALAY: This isn't a personal
8 level. We're all here as friends, Fred.
9 Q Mr. West, did you know that AYSO was a
10 member of a National State Association?
11 A Of a National State Association.
12 Q One of its regions was a member of a
13 National State Association?
14 A No, I wasn't aware of that at this
15 time.
16 Q What I would like to do, just so that
17 it's before the panel, Sonya, just, if you could
18 distribute them, it's the salmon colored sheets, to
19 each of the panelists.
20 MS. BALDWIN: May I ask if this is
21 up-to-date since this says 55, and you just said 53?
22 Did you lose...
23 MR. MONACO: 53 amateur.
24 MR. ALKALAY: It should be changed to
25 53.
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1 MS. BALDWIN: Peter, she's going to
2 start numbering your exhibits by letter.
3 MR. ALKALAY: Okay.
4 So I offer this as Exhibit A. Our
5 intention, by the way, of course, is to offer
6 everything that's in the exhibit book, and I don't
7 know how we will do that formally, but the panel
8 already has it.
9 MR. GREGORY: Excuse me, what exhibit
10 book? We have not been furnished with one.
11 MR. LEVY: Can we ask at what time this
12 was furnished to the panel, this exhibit book?
13 MR. ALKALAY: I think some time last
14 week, after you got the brief.
15 MR. LEVY: So it was furnished to them
16 ex parte without any copies to us?
17 MR. ALKALAY: We didn't get any of your
18 exhibits either, Rich.
19 MR. LEVY: Nor did we provide them to
20 the panel.
21 MR. ALKALAY: I don't know what you
22 did.
23 MR. GREGORY: Well, break.
24 MS. BALDWIN: Well, I mean, it doesn't
25 make any difference. We have every intention of
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1 receiving everybody's exhibits, so...
2 MR. GREGORY: Fine. It may take us a
3 bit more time looking at these, since we didn't have
4 an opportunity, but...
5 MR. ALKALAY: May I continue?
6 MS. BALDWIN: Yes, you may.
7 Q (By Mr. Alkalay) now, I take it, Mr.
8 West, you know that the United States Soccer
9 Federation has quite a few operating committees?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you know that it has a rules
12 committee?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And do you know whether or not AYSO
15 has a representative on that rules committee?
16 A In the past it has. I do not know
17 whether it does right now.
18 Q Do you know that Mr. Haimes currently
19 sits on that rules committee?
20 A I would accept that.
21 Q And are you aware that -- do you
22 know whether or not AYSO has a representative on the
23 budget committee?
24 A It has in the past. I do not know if
25 it does presently.
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1 Q In fact, AYSO's treasurer sits on the
2 U.S. Soccer Federation's budget committee; isn't that
3 a fact?
4 A I would accept that as probably true.
5 Q And you also are aware that the United
6 States Soccer Federation is a coaching committee?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And do you know who John Olleutte is?
9 A Director of coaching for AYSO.
10 Q And you are aware that he sits on the
11 United States Soccer Federation coaching committee?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Are you also aware of the fact that
14 the United States Soccer Federation has a referee's
15 committee?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Do you know whether or not AYSO has a
18 representative on that committee?
19 A I would imagine we do. I don't know
20 who the person would be at the moment.
21 Q It's AYSO's head of referees, isn't
22 it?
23 A I don't know.
24 MR. HAIMES: No, it's not.
25 MR. ALKALAY: It's not?
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1 MR. HAIMES: Bill Mason.
2 Q I stand corrected.
3 And, in fact, when there was a men's
4 professional development committee, Mr. Haimes chaired
5 that committee, didn't he?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And, in fact, today, there's a women's
8 professional development committee, and Mr. Haimes is
9 on that committee; isn't that right? You are aware of
10 that?
11 A We have attempted to be very involved
12 in the affairs of the Federation to the extent we can.
13 Q And, in fact, you have been.
14 A Yes.
15 Q And in fact you have been quite vocal,
16 correct?
17 A That would be your characterization,
18 but I will accept it.
19 Q Yes. In fact, you have made your
20 point of view known repeatedly to various committees
21 governing boards in the Soccer Federation, isn't that
22 a fact?
23 A We have attempted to.
24 Q You are, I take it, Don, familiar with
25 AYSO's own policies, aren't you, the published
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1 policies?
2 A I'm familiar. We have policy books.
3 I have not read the policy book in a number of years,
4 but, yes, I'm aware that AYSO has a policy book.
5 Q And you are aware, are you not, that
6 it is an AYSO policy to discourage participation in
7 non-AYSO tournaments and games, aren't you?
8 A I think if you read the full context
9 of that, it will come off a little differently than it
10 implies the way you have read it.
11 Q It is the policy of AYSO to keep
12 non-AYSO activities to a minimum; is that
13 encouragement of non-AYSO activities, Mr. West?
14 A I think if you look at that, that
15 deals with the insurance question in terms of where
16 the plate can go, and where the insurance questions
17 arise.
18 Q Is it AYSO's policy to keep non-AYSO
19 activities to a minimum?
20 A The policy is stated that way, yes.
21 Q Now, AYSO has a policy about the
22 application of the everyone-plays rule too, doesn't
23 it?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And, in fact that policy is that it
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1 will apply to AYSO teams who are participating in
2 non-AYSO tournaments, regardless of what the rules of
3 that tournament are, correct?
4 A I believe it would, yes.
5 Q Doesn't that put the AYSO team at a
6 competitive disadvantage?
7 A Not if you have all good players on
8 the team.
9 Q Now, AYSO has something called an All
10 Star Program, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q But isn't it a policy of AYSO's
13 National Board of Directors that caution should be
14 exercised conducting such programs?
15 A It is a post-season select program,
16 yes.
17 Q And the reason that AYSO advises
18 caution when conducting these programs is because that
19 program focuses on identifying children or kids who
20 are good, who have merit, right?
21 A I think you have characterized it
22 improperly, but it does focus on giving children an
23 opportunity who wish to play at a different level than
24 the normal program.
25 Q Right. And AYSO views that as being
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1 exclusionary, don't they?
2 A No, all children are entitled to try
3 out for it, so we would not say it's exclusionary.
4 Q The National Board of Directors -- I'm
5 reading from 2.7 of the AYSO policy statement. --
6 A Go ahead.
7 Q -- under the heading All Star
8 Program: The National Board of Directors, however,
9 advises caution when conducting these programs,
10 because it is by its very nature exclusionary, not
11 inclusionary, and because it may diminish volunteer
12 resources to be expended on regular seasoned play
13 which is the heart of the AYSO program.
14 That's a fair statement. It's in the
15 policy statement, correct?
16 A Correct.
17 Q So clearly AYSO's objective here is
18 not to identify quality or qualified players, it's to
19 make sure that its volunteer base isn't touched, isn't
20 diminished, and the children participate with no
21 emphasis, and de-emphasis on winning, isn't that a
22 fair statement?
23 A I would disagree with you.
24 Q I'm actually not surprised that you
25 do.
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1 Now, I want to take you back, Don, a
2 little bit in time.
3 A Go ahead.
4 Q You have given to us, or provided
5 Mr. Gregory with a time line that goes all the way
6 back to the formation of AYSO in 1964, right?
7 A I did not necessarily provide all of
8 the time line. I was involved in portions of it, but
9 go ahead.
10 Q Well, maybe you could tell me which
11 portions you were involved in and which portions you
12 weren't?
13 A Let me get to the time line, and I
14 will tell you.
15 The portions of the time line that I
16 was directly involved with were 1980 on. I reviewed
17 the earlier portion.
18 Q Just tell me --
19 A From 1980, subsequent to 1980, yes.
20 Q And by the way, has that involvement
21 continued to this date?
22 A In terms of my involvement?
23 Q Yes, with the national organization of
24 AYSO.
25 A I still have an involvement with the
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1 national organization, yes.
2 Q Do you hold any -- are you an
3 officer?
4 A I have not held office since 1986.
5 Q Do you sit on the AYSO Board of
6 Directors?
7 A No.
8 Q Are you a regional commissioner of
9 some sort?
10 A No, no.
11 Q Did you attend the last joint board
12 meeting of AYSO and USYSA that was held in April of
13 this year?
14 A No. No.
15 Q No. Have you ever attended a joint
16 board meeting between AYSO and --
17 A USYSA.
18 Q -- USYSA?
19 A 1981.
20 Q Okay. But you weren't present at the
21 April, the just past, just recent?
22 A No.
23 Q Okay. Now, your time line, by the
24 way, in 1984, was it, AYSO joined USYSA, didn't it?
25 A In 1984?
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1 Q Maybe it was '85.
2 A We joined it --
3 Q Did there come a time when AYSO joined
4 USYSA?
5 A I would have to go back and look at
6 the records. I can't remember. There may have been.
7 Q It's not in the time line, is it?
8 A No, it's not in this time line. This
9 was from what I could remember.
10 Q And you didn't remember the fact that
11 AYSO had joined USYSA in 1984. I would have to check
12 with someone who has a record. Was it in '84?
13 MR. HAIMES: I don't remember the exact
14 date.
15 A I will accept that.
16 Q I was going to help refresh your
17 recollection.
18 A Fine, please do.
19 Q With something called the "AYSO
20 Shorts," that's a semi-monthly newsletter sent out by
21 the organization?
22 A Right.
23 Q And I think it announced that AYSO has
24 been successful to secure associate membership in
25 USYSA, the youth forum of the United States Soccer
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1 Federation. This was accomplished for a nominal fee.
2 AYSO will continue to maintain the integrity and total
3 independence of its programs. No program or policy
4 changes are anticipated because of the association.
5 Does that refresh your recollection
6 now?
7 A I would accept that.
8 Q Did AYSO renew its membership in USYSA
9 after that?
10 A I don't recall.
11 Q Now, there's been some reference made,
12 I think it may have come from AYSO's brief or in the
13 course of Fred's presentation earlier today that an
14 organization called USSFA -- do you remember that?
15 A It's referred to in the first page of
16 the time line.
17 Q Thanks. The United States Soccer
18 Football Association. That ultimately became the
19 United States Soccer Federation, correct?
20 A My understanding.
21 Q And you come here today, Don, I take
22 it, as someone who has been involved with the history
23 of this dispute over the last two decades or so,
24 correct?
25 A Almost two decades, yes.
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1 Q Now, you do recall, do you not, that
2 it was a position of AYSO as far back as the early
3 '70s, that USSFA, which subsequently changed its name
4 to the United States Soccer Federation, should
5 organize a Federation of American Youth Soccer
6 Organizations that would belong to USSFA but would be
7 completely independent of all other facets of soccer.
8 Do you remember that?
9 A I was not involved in that.
10 Q Do you know who Frank Pisciotta is?
11 A No.
12 Q Do you know who Hans Stierle is?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Who is he?
15 A He was one of the founders of AYSO.
16 Q This is in a letter dated September 12
17 of 1972 from Mr. Frank, and I may be butchering the
18 pronunciation of his name. --
19 A I can't argue with you.
20 Q -- who was the then AYSO treasurer to
21 Hans Stierle, and he says, and I quote: USSFA should
22 organize a Federation of American Youth Soccer
23 organizations, a national body belonging to USSFA,
24 completely independent from the other facets of
25 soccer, structurally, administratively and financially
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1 -- the name is not really important, but I will use
2 it for discussion purposes.
3 The various youth soccer leagues from
4 age 16 to 15 would sever their connections with the
5 present state soccer associations and would belong to
6 this Federation of American Youth Soccer
7 Organizations.
8 MR. GREGORY: Excuse me, do you have a
9 copy?
10 Q Do you see that? It's Paragraph 3 and
11 4.
12 A I see what you are reading from.
13 Q So certainly in 1972, and granted
14 that's a long time ago, it was clearly AYSO's
15 position, the delegating, the coordination and
16 administration and control of youth soccer to a
17 completely independent Youth Soccer Organization is
18 perfectly okay.
19 A I think if you read the opening
20 sentence, he says, after meeting with a gentleman of
21 USSFA on Saturday, I have been mulling -- this is a
22 personal opinion -- I have been mulling over a few
23 ideas which I would like to put in writing for you and
24 the other members of the board to consider.
25 Q Okay.
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1 A Now, if you want to read the third
2 paragraph without the first one, that's fine.
3 Obviously, it's this man's opinion. I accepted his
4 opinion, and we may have had that opinion.
5 Q I'm happy to read the whole document,
6 and I take it the panel will read the whole document.
7 MS. BALDWIN: I would prefer that you
8 didn't read the whole document. I frankly, and you
9 haven't objected at all, but I would like us not to
10 spend too much time on things prior to 1978.
11 The Amateur Sports Act did change the
12 nature of all of our organizations including the U.S.
13 Olympic Committee.
14 MR. ALKALAY: My point, Ms. Chairman,
15 is that their position hasn't changed.
16 MS. BALDWIN: Whose position?
17 MR. ALKALAY: AYSO's position hasn't
18 changed.
19 MS. BALDWIN: How do you -- well,
20 that's your conclusion. You want to argue, fine.
21 MR. ALKALAY: I'm simply making the
22 point that what we heard this morning, really, through
23 Mr. Gregory's mouth more than anyone, and while I
24 confess to you, it was an eloquent presentation. No
25 one in the room has less personal contact with the
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1 functioning of these rules than Mr. Gregory.
2 But the truth of the matter -- and he
3 testified for, endlessly, about these rules -- but the
4 truth of the matter is, is that we have a complaint
5 that says the delegation to our own members is
6 unlawful, and as early as 1972 the concept of
7 delegating control and administration of youth soccer
8 programs was advanced by the very organization that
9 today says it's unlawful.
10 That's the point. That's the only
11 reason I have gone back to 1972. Indeed we have a
12 time line.
13 MS. BALDWIN: I said not to go back to
14 it, I said not to spend the rest of the afternoon --
15 MR. ALKALAY: I won't dwell on it much,
16 much longer, I promise you.
17 Q Isn't it a fact, Mr. West, that
18 throughout the '70s, AYSO was complimentary of the
19 Federation to the extent that it induced youth groups
20 to demand greater autonomy to run youth programs?
21 A I joined the board in '79. I'm really
22 not in a position to speak for AYSO prior to that
23 time.
24 Q But you don't disagree with what I'm
25 saying, do you?
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1 MR. GREGORY: Objection.
2 A I'm sure you might have some letters
3 or something to support your view, and I won't argue
4 if you want to present them.
5 Q I will do that, and I won't go on any
6 further.
7 This is a letter to AYSO executive
8 advisors and office staff dated May 18, 1974 from the
9 president of the organization at that time, and the
10 document will speak for itself.
11 MS. BALDWIN: Do you want that Exhibit
12 B?
13 MR. ALKALAY: I think we're up to
14 Exhibit B. To the extent we don't have sufficient
15 copies for all of the panelists, we will try to supply
16 them to you tomorrow.
17 MR. LEVY: There's a business office
18 that's available for copies.
19 Q You have made some reference, Don, to
20 the 1989 agreement. That agreement has nothing to do
21 with any other soccer organization other than AYSO and
22 USYSA, isn't that right?
23 A That specific agreement, I believe
24 that is correct, yes.
25 Q So that agreement had nothing to do
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1 with AYSO's purported desire to open soccer up to
2 other youth organizations?
3 A That particular agreement is a result
4 of an AYSO complaint dealing with AYSO.
5 Q In fact, AYSO didn't really care about
6 any other youth soccer organizations, did it, in 1989?
7 A I would disagree.
8 Q It didn't care about SAY, did it?
9 A We were talking with SAY all the time
10 about how --
11 Q In fact, SAY --
12 MR. GREGORY: Excuse me, could Mr. West
13 complete his answer?
14 MS. BALDWIN: Yes.
15 A We have talked with SAY all the time
16 about joint activities and dealing with the
17 federations, so we are a separate organization. We
18 have had our own disputes between each other, I won't
19 deny that, but I think that we have not acted without
20 an awareness of the needs of others that we dealt
21 with.
22 Q You also said in the time line that a
23 joint committee of USYSA and AYSO created guidelines
24 in 1991. Remember that?
25 A That is in the document, yes.
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1 Q And isn't it a fact that those
2 guidelines were sent out to thousands and and
3 thousands of USYSA and U.S. Soccer Federation members?
4 A I would accept that, Peter. I prefer
5 to let Mr. Haimes talk about that. I was in China for
6 those two years, so I don't remember much about what
7 went on.
8 Q You don't know much about what went
9 on?
10 A No, in '91, and '92 I was not around,
11 '90, and '91. So...
12 MR. ALKALAY: Thank you.
13 MS. BALDWIN: All right. You are
14 excused.
15 MR. GREGORY: Thank you, unless the
16 panel has questions.
17 MS. BALDWIN: Anybody of the panel have
18 questions of Mr. West?
19 MR. SATROM: No, I assume we can
20 reserve some questions until later or are you going to
21 be departing?
22 MR. WEST: I will be here through
23 tomorrow afternoon.
24 MR. GREGORY: All right. Thank you. I
25 would like to come back now -- perhaps, we should get
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1 the lights out -- I would like to come back now to the
2 1989 agreement and re-call Mr. Haimes.
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. GREGORY:
5 Q And I ask you, Mr. Haimes, if you
6 remember being involved in the 1989 agreement?
7 A Yes, I participated as the leader of
8 our delegation.
9 Q Let's see, just a moment.
10 A It occurs to me, Fred, I wanted to
11 say --
12 Q Just a moment. It occurs to me that
13 we should have that time line before you. Go ahead.
14 I will get that.
15 A I haven't said, really, to the, I
16 really haven't told the panel just a little bit about
17 my background, and I thought I might tell you. I have
18 been involved as a coach, referee, administrator at
19 AYSO since 1975. I joined the board with Don West in
20 1979 and succeeded him as president of AYSO.
21 I was president of AYSO for seven out
22 of the next ten years. After succeeding him, the
23 three-year hiatus insisted upon by my wife -- I'm sure
24 we have all those problems in amateur sports -- and
25 then I stepped back in the last two years. I have
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1 been the chairman of the board -- Harvey Lightstone is
2 now the current national president of AYSO -- I have
3 been involved in this dispute, this situation with
4 Mr. West just about as long, maybe, a couple years
5 after him, which meant starting in about '81, which
6 is, I guess our involvement.
7 And more particularly, after 1989, I
8 kind of spearheaded our task force and the people who
9 were involved in trying to resolve the matters, which
10 has always been our intent, and, in fact, you know, at
11 some point, if you want the recollections of what
12 happened in 1991 and beyond, I have a pretty good
13 recollection of those things, so, the answer was, yes,
14 I sat on the committee, the joint committee of the
15 USYSA and the AYSO, which was directed by the U.S.
16 Olympic Committee to try to resolve the situation and
17 which resulted in the 1989 agreement and the
18 subsequent withdrawal of our complaint.
19 Q Mr. Haimes, if you were to go forward
20 in the time line, 1989, 1991, '92, '93, up until 1997,
21 which may not even be on the time line, have you been
22 involved actively in discussions between USYSA, USSF,
23 and AYSO and perhaps others, regarding the
24 organization of USSF?
25 A Absolutely.
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1 Q You heard Mr. West testify about this
2 period of time from his perspective. Did you have
3 anything about that that you felt needed to be filled
4 in?
5 A I can pick up in 1991. It is quite
6 correct that there was a distribution in 1991 to the
7 members of both organizations of the guidelines that
8 were adopted between the two organizations, which we
9 viewed as a positive step at that point, and a step in
10 implementing the 1989 agreement, but what you find
11 with volunteers who change, sometimes, up to one-third
12 of our membership of our local people change each year
13 where the volunteers come and they go. If you don't
14 continually disseminate it, if you don't continually
15 talk about it and publicize it, whatever has happened
16 is just interesting history.
17 And that's what happened from our
18 perspective. It was never disseminated again, from
19 what I can tell, as best as I can tell from the USYSA
20 part, it has been considered a dead letter. From our
21 part, whenever we have had a concern, we have looked
22 at them, and we have advised our membership as to
23 their existence. But it's never been acknowledged on
24 the other side, so the fact that there was a single
25 dissemination in 1991 is, in my judgment, just
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1 unfortunately and largely irrelevant.
2 AYSO's position -- and I think I ought
3 to address this, I really don't know the history of
4 what happened in the '70s, or the '60s, although we
5 have recently commissioned a history book, which kind
6 of opened my eyes and then kind of, it's a wonderful
7 time to see how an organization grows and develops. I
8 am sure you have all had the same kind of nostalgia --
9 but as far as USSF, as far as I'm concerned, Don West
10 and I took the laboring war to bring us into the USSF,
11 and our belief was that we had a lot to offer the
12 Federation. It wasn't any bigger or more hidden
13 motives than that. We felt that the children of
14 America could benefit by our programs. We felt that
15 rules which restricted children from being able to
16 play and choose whatever organization they wanted, and
17 whatever locale, at whatever time, or would not, in
18 the best interests of soccer, youth soccer, amateur
19 soccer, Olympic soccer in this country because it had
20 a chilling effect on it. And our position really
21 hasn't changed since then.
22 We have no secret, open or other
23 desire to create an independent organization. We
24 have, or I have, in particular, perhaps, a differing
25 view. Dr. Contiguglia, and I have shared views many
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1 occasions, about how a Federation ought to be. We
2 share our views on many other issues too, and
3 sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't, but if you
4 have the right forum, and you have the right governing
5 structure, these views can have an impact, can be
6 evaluated and can be measured.
7 Our view of the Federation is a view
8 that's more horizontal, that isn't into power and
9 control. It's more user-friendly where people just
10 don't throw up their hands and say, well, all right,
11 you say that $250, maybe we are a member and maybe we
12 won't participate.
13 If you look at the list of members
14 that Mr. Alkalay has given you, how many of those
15 really participate? How many come to meetings, how
16 many share? We're there. I'm there. You see the
17 number of committees. We do care. We care what
18 happens to soccer in America. If we didn't care, we
19 wouldn't be here. And we're not here just on our own
20 behalf. It's our nickel. We're the ones footing the
21 bill.
22 I can tell you we talked to YMCA, we
23 talked to SAY Soccer. We talked to the other members
24 of the soccer community, NACAA, they're not with us
25 physically or part of it, but they're with us in
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1 spirit. They would like to see changes. They would
2 like to see the 100 percent rule go out, because it
3 has a chilling effect on children playing soccer in
4 this country. They are quite content for us to take
5 the lead, and we feel, maybe it's a moral feeling,
6 there's no hidden motives involved.
7 We would like to do what's best for
8 the youth in this country. We believe in our national
9 team. We want our national team to succeed.
10 We care as much as Hank cares, and no
11 one cares more than Hank, Hank Steinbrecher, our
12 Secretary General about our national team. We're
13 there to support him. When our president is under
14 attack, we will write a note and say, we're there to
15 support you. He knows, and we support him. We want
16 to be a part of the Federation. We think we can be an
17 important member of the Federation in the proper
18 governance structure. That isn't in place today.
19 That's why we're here.
20 Now, some may think we're crazy. We
21 have been doing this since '81. That's a long time.
22 Why would you do it so long? I guess we believe in
23 it. We kind of believe in kids. We believe in the
24 future of soccer in this country, and we're very
25 excited about it. I think it's irrelevant whether we
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1 say, it's kids first or soccer second.
2 Frankly, if you look at the mission
3 statement, not the certificate of incorporation -- as
4 you know with most companies no one pays a lot of
5 attention to -- and we have a mission statement. You
6 check the USYSA mission statement, you will see
7 they're almost identical. They're almost identical in
8 caring about the kids and putting them first. It
9 doesn't mean we don't care about soccer. It doesn't
10 mean we don't love the game of soccer. We wouldn't do
11 this if we didn't care.
12 We think the difference between the
13 two organizations and our philosophy is emphasis,
14 style and caring. We think with our emphasis we will
15 get the results. That's why when Project 40 comes up,
16 and we can talk about that later, we don't believe in
17 Project 40. We don't think it's right to take
18 children away from a college program. We think the
19 colleges today can provide them with the kind of
20 competition that they need. They may not agree with
21 us. People may not agree with us. That's also okay.
22 But you have to have the right forum and the right
23 situation where you have the right governance. Where
24 you have the right, where you don't have a delegation
25 authority, so you don't have to keep chasing your tail
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1 to figure out who is in charge of what.
2 MS. BALDWIN: Excuse me. Mr. Gregory,
3 you know, we can't let him continue on a diatribe like
4 this.
5 A Sorry. I apologize.
6 MS. BALDWIN: However, you're a witness
7 right now, I prefer you to answer questions.
8 Q I think we got off track on the 1989
9 agreement, Mr. Haimes.
10 I put in front of you what is Exhibit
11 5, and I think the panel has it as Number 8. I
12 misspoke, Number 9 in the attachment to the
13 complaints.
14 MR. GREGORY: And I think
15 referring -- I have another copy for anybody who
16 needs it.
17 Everybody have it?
18 I would like to refer you specifically
19 to this and ask you if this is the 19-, if these
20 documents taken together are the 1989 agreements? You
21 have a letter dated April 4, 1989 signed by yourself
22 and Mavis Derflinger. You have the United States
23 Soccer Federation Special Membership Commission
24 Minutes of April 2, 1989. And you have a letter from
25 Keith Walker, Secretary General of the United States
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1 Soccer Federation, dated April 3, 1989. And I ask you
2 if those documents represent the 1989 agreement?
3 A Yes.
4 Q If you would refer to the Special
5 Membership Commission, United States Soccer Federation
6 dated April 2, 1989, there are certain resolutions.
7 Do you see those resolutions beginning
8 on Page 2?
9 A Yeah.
10 Q I would like you to look at the
11 Resolution Number 1. Explain the importance of
12 Resolution Number 1, and whether Resolution Number 1
13 is still being followed by USSF?
14 A Of all the items discussed at that
15 meeting, this item got the most attention from both
16 sides, because all parties wanted to make sure that
17 the other party didn't have a designation that made
18 them seem more important or be more official than the
19 other.
20 At the last moment, the state
21 associations asked for the word "national" to be put
22 in front of the state association members, and we
23 agreed. That, however, what has happened as a result
24 of the 1995 rule changes, although the National State
25 Association members designation remains, the national
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1 affiliate members, the national was dropped, so it no
2 longer became national affiliate members, but became
3 affiliate members.
4 Q Was there discussion in 1995 at the
5 time those rule changes were made about the reason for
6 dropping the word "national" from the designation
7 national affiliate member?
8 A I don't recall any other, that that's
9 what they wanted to do.
10 Q Resolution Number 2: You see it
11 addresses that the players who are players registered
12 with the Federation may enter the national cup
13 competition and each national affiliate member team
14 will pay a reasonable fee based on a pro rata share of
15 the national cup expense, state cup expense, and state
16 entry fee, and then be permitted to join. And the
17 national cup committees will develop the figures on an
18 annual basis. Is the subject of that resolution being
19 followed today by USSF?
20 A No, the position stated to us is that
21 if we want, if one of our teams wants to participate
22 in a national cup or state cup, we have to, that team
23 has to join the appropriate state organization.
24 Q So if an AYSO team can't participate
25 without joining an NSA?
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1 A That's my understanding.
2 Q It goes on: Each national member will
3 develop and administer its own players selection
4 program for national teams, and the Federation
5 national coaches will observe the final competition or
6 camp.
7 Are you aware of Federation national
8 coaches observing competitions or camps conducted by
9 AYSO?
10 A Not to my knowledge.
11 Q It goes on: Each national members'
12 team may be invited to club, league, or local
13 tournaments. Each national member encourages
14 interplay of its teams with teams of other national
15 members, and no state or national member shall
16 prohibit interplay.
17 Are you aware whether the USSF and
18 NSAs are complying with that requirement?
19 A My understanding is that there are
20 many National State Associations, just based on the
21 information provided to us, that do restrict or
22 prohibit interplay with AYSO teams.
23 Q If you would look again at
24 Mr. Fricker's memorandum dated June 1, 1990, I believe
25 you have it as Exhibit 6, do you remember Mr.
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1 Fricker's letter?
2 A Oh, yes. This is what he indirectly
3 referred to. This letter was necessary because this
4 agreement was not being implemented and the then
5 president, Werner Fricker, took it upon himself to
6 remind everybody that there was an agreement reached
7 in 1989.
8 Q And the issue here: Each national
9 members' team may be invited to club, league or local
10 tournaments. Each national member encourages
11 interplay of its teams with teams of other national
12 members, and no state or national member shall
13 prohibit interplay.
14 Again, was it your understanding of
15 that, even as of 1991, that agreement by USSF was not
16 being followed?
17 A It -- I don't have a national picture
18 because we don't monitor every situation, only
19 situations that come to our attention. But there were
20 situations that came to our attention where it was not
21 being followed or honored.
22 Q You mentioned the 100 percent rule in
23 your statement earlier. What did you mean by the 100
24 percent rule?
25 A Well, I'm going to try to give a short
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1 explanation of what we mean by that.
2 Q Thank you.
3 A I will try to be very brief on it.
4 Our concern is with the USYSA rule that it's so-called
5 the 100 percent rule as it is applied to American
6 Youth Soccer Organization. There is a rule which I
7 cannot, will not paraphrase, but that as applied to
8 AYSO, when an AYSO team, what happens is, in
9 certain -- let me give you an example.
10 In certain areas where AYSO has a
11 region and a region is what we call a program or a
12 local league, there may be one or two or three teams
13 that wish to get more accelerated play than it is
14 provided by the basic program being provided by the
15 AYSO program.
16 Rather than create our own, we have
17 encouraged those teams to participate in our sister
18 organizations, programs, USYSA. The USYSA programs
19 have said, you can't do that. If the two or three
20 teams want to join, then the rest of the AYSO program
21 must join as well. In some states, they say you just
22 have to pay a fee for every one of those children, but
23 they don't actually have to participate.
24 In other states, they have said no,
25 you can't have the so-called dual registration. They
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1 must leave the AYSO program, that whole league must
2 come over to participate in USYSA. And it is that
3 application that we have vehemently and vociferously
4 opposed.
5 Q In 1992 you heard Mr. West testify
6 about the rule changes implemented or proposed, I
7 should say, excuse me, the rule changes proposed by
8 AYSO and the resulting assurances of USSF President
9 Alan Rothenberg, and the withdrawal of those proposed
10 changes on Mr. Rothenberg's assurances. Did you want
11 to add anything? Did you have any correction to what
12 Mr. West said?
13 A Well, I think the only thing that I
14 would add is that in 1989 at the meeting that we had,
15 that resulted in the withdrawal of the complaint, what
16 we indicated at that point, now, let's deal with the
17 youth division, which is a closed community of only
18 one of the constituent members. We requested that it
19 be open to all of the other participants, YMCA, AYSO,
20 SAY Soccer, anybody else who had a program. We were
21 told at that point that it was not feasible, the
22 suggestion, as an exercise of good faith and goodwill
23 on our part, would be to follow an internal
24 procedure. And once the 1989 agreement was signed,
25 and we entered the Federation, then there would be a
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1 dialogue process.
2 When, by 1992, nothing had happened,
3 we proposed a rule change which would have, in effect,
4 opened up the youth, the youth division, in view of
5 the upcoming assurances by President Rothenberg, that
6 there would be a constitutional convention with the
7 attention and the energies of the Federation directed
8 towards the upcoming World Cup, we withdrew our rule
9 changes.
10 Q And then World Cup occurred in 1994?
11 A I think we will all agree on that.
12 Q And after 1994, other than the Soccer
13 Summit that Mr. West testified to, has there been a
14 constitutional convention called by President Alan
15 Rothenberg?
16 A Not one to which I have been invited.
17 The answer is, there hasn't been any constitutional
18 convention.
19 Q I would like to bring up onto the
20 screen, now. I didn't want want to prevent you, Mr.
21 Haimes, by the way from adding anything more that you
22 felt was necessary to the rest of the time line that
23 you heard Mr. West testify to. I know that we want to
24 get you to the joint meeting a few weeks ago, but
25 let's do that in good time.
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1 Is there anything more so far that Mr.
2 West covered that you felt needed any adding to?
3 A Other than when the amendments were
4 proposed in 1995, I asked in open board meetings;
5 privately, in small groups, that the two organizations
6 meet and avoid any kind of confrontation, that we were
7 willing to discuss any issue, no preconditions at any
8 time.
9 I will also say that that request was
10 made. Mr. Alkalay, and I met, by chance, a couple of
11 times, actually on an airplane, and on the second one,
12 I said -- we had some dialogue as a result of that. I
13 made it clear to him and everybody, the Federation,
14 that they really seriously wanted to discuss this
15 issue, and the complaint that was filed, again,
16 without preconditions, we would have done it. We were
17 willing to do it.
18 Q I would like to call up onto the
19 screen next a document which I believe you have in the
20 charts. It shows the National State Association
21 governing documents: The panel might know that
22 attached as Exhibit 14 to the AYSO complaint are the
23 bylaws, or certain of the bylaws and rules of the
24 Arkansas State Soccer Association.
25 And note also, as was pointed out this
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1 morning, to be a National State Association under
2 Section, Rule 2011, Section 1, rather Section 2, pages
3 6 and 7 of the rules: In order to be a National State
4 Association, the National State Association must
5 submit its bylaws and rules and regulations and
6 charters to USSF for approval and that USSF can impose
7 any changes, and that if there are any changes done by
8 the organization itself, the NSA itself, those changes
9 must be submitted to USSF for USSF's approval.
10 When we were together in Chicago on
11 the motion to dismiss, the issue came up with respect
12 to the Arkansas -- and on Page, rather in Tab 14 of
13 the complaint, the third page of that, we have stated
14 the rule adopted by the Arkansas State Soccer
15 Association, regarding interplay: The ASSA has no
16 requirement to sanction interplay, no requirement to
17 sanction interplay between ASSA programs and AYSO
18 programs. Indeed it is the expressed decision of the
19 Board of Directors that interplay with AYSO programs
20 in Arkansas is a non-sanctioned event, and that any
21 association found to have engaged in such interplay
22 will leave itself open to disciplinary action.
23 Elsewhere in here, they define
24 interplay as playing, practicing or scrimmaging with
25 an AYSO player.
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1 Accordingly, preparing for today, we
2 sent a letter to the United States Soccer Federation
3 asking them to send us copies of the rules and bylaws
4 that they had approved with respect to each of the
5 state associations.
6 We were provided with 14. We were not
7 provided with 41. We don't know where they are.
8 We looked at the 14. Within those 14,
9 you might note, by the way, that on this list, before
10 you move away from it, Bill, Arkansas -- I'm not sure
11 whether Arkansas is AK or AR, maybe somebody does --
12 but in either event, it's not there. It was one of
13 those that was not provided.
14 So if Arkansas changed its rules since
15 September, we don't know about it, because their rules
16 were withheld.
17 We go on to, the first one we have I
18 think may be Arkansas, and Arkansas is a repeat of
19 what I just did, so then we got California Youth
20 Soccer Association-South: Affiliated teams, clubs,
21 and leagues shall not participate in tournaments or
22 inter-league play or inter-club or inter-team exchange
23 games or single inter-team games with unaffiliated
24 teams. Any team, club or league found to have
25 violated this regulation may be sanctioned.
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1 Who is an affiliated team? One
2 registered with CYSA South.
3 Kansas: Members of KSYSA shall not,
4 without written consent of the Board of Directors,
5 have any relationship with such unaffiliated
6 organization.
7 Michigan: All non-member teams and
8 leagues within the territorial jurisdiction of the
9 Association shall be deemed outlaw organizations. Any
10 affiliated team or league which plays games or
11 otherwise does business with an outlaw organization
12 shall face disciplinary action up to and including
13 suspension as determined by the Board of Directors.
14 MSYSA will not sanction a game
15 involving an AYSO team.
16 The obvious bottom line to this
17 memorandum is that no TBAYS-affiliated team should be
18 at the AYSO meeting, and no TBAYS-affiliated team
19 should reschedule games with AYSO teams. "Emphasis in
20 original." That's not our note, that's theirs.
21 North Texas State Soccer
22 Association... Youth and amateur players or teams who
23 participate with unregistered players or engage in
24 unsanctioned play shall void their NTSSA registration
25 and must apply for reinstatement. Unsanctioned play
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1 shall include but not be limited to any game with a
2 non-USSF affiliate.
3 Ohio: Participation in formal league
4 games by OSYSA/USYSA players and teams against
5 non-OSYSA/USYSA registered players and teams is not
6 permitted.
7 Participation in tournaments and
8 multi-team events by players and teams of
9 OSYSA/USYSA/USSF against the teams of OSYSA/USYSA and
10 USSF registered players and teams is not permitted.
11 And then Number 4 from Ohio: USYSA
12 registered teams can schedule and play friendly games
13 against any team they wish as long as the game is not
14 part of any league, tournament or multi-game
15 competition. Such play against teams that are not
16 members of USSF/USYSA are not protected by the USSF
17 rules, USYSA, and you have got no insurance when you
18 play them, even when AYSO has insurance for the games,
19 they can't play with AYSO because they're not going to
20 be given their own insurance.
21 Ohio still: 1) Only USYSA/OSYSA
22 registered teams playing in a sanctioned program can
23 play in State Cup, sanctioned tournaments, or multi-
24 team event competitions.
25 Washington: Registered teams shall
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1 not compete against non-affiliated teams and shall not
2 participate in events involving non-affiliated teams.
3 And then it goes on: This rule applies to any
4 competition within or outside the territory of the
5 WSYSA.
6 The Washington State National Cup,
7 next page -- am I the only one with it? A glitch in
8 the program. It looks like a page was missing. Let
9 me show it to Peter.
10 Sorry, I will just hand it in and ask
11 if we can borrow it back. The tournament is open to
12 all boys and girls Under-12 to Under-19 registered
13 teams.
14 You talked about the 100 percent rule,
15 Mr. Haimes. I would like you to look at Rule 2011,
16 Section 2 (h)(1). Under the heading, Members Duties
17 to Retain Good Standing. I think you will find it in
18 Page 8 of the rules that were handed out, and tell us
19 whether the Section that I have identified is what is
20 referred to as the authority for the 100 percent rule?
21 A I believe so.
22 MR. TOLES: What rule is that?
23 A Page 8 (h)(1) on Page 8.
24 Q And then I will ask you to look at
25 Rule 4011 on Page 74, specifically at (b) (4) and ask
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1 you if that Rule is identified in the USS, I'm sorry,
2 USYSA rules is also referred to as the authority for
3 the 100 percent Rule?
4 A I believe so. Same wording, well,
5 it's not exactly the same wording. There's a sentence
6 missing in the one in Section 4 than in the one in
7 Section 2. In Section 2, there's a sentence that
8 reads at the last: This requirement does not apply to
9 affiliate members and associate members, but you don't
10 find that sentence in 4011 (b) (4).
11 Q I think you began to describe the ways
12 in which the 100 percent Rule has been used to require
13 leagues like parks and recreations or AYSO regions to
14 either disband their present operation and go 100
15 percent with the NSA or stay completely out of the
16 NSA, and nobody gets to play in the NSA, or do you
17 have incidents in mind that you can describe more
18 fully, those problems?
19 A We had a situation in the fall
20 involving a program in Havelock, North Carolina, which
21 wanted to put the older children in an USYSA program,
22 and yet maintain the AYSO program for the younger
23 children. North Carolina invoked the 100 percent
24 rule, tried to comply. We asked Ms. Apcel to advise
25 us as to how we could comply with the Rule. And by
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1 that time, again, there's a window of opportunity you
2 have with local programs. They're not going to sit
3 and be faced with the possibility that some of their
4 children may not be able to play in the program. They
5 make decisions within a two-week period, and within
6 the two-week period, they decided, we love AYSO, we
7 like to be in it, we're sorry, but in order to protect
8 the older children who are not permitted to join the
9 USYSA program without the rest coming over, we're
10 going to enroll in the North Carolina Youth Soccer
11 Association.
12 So that's what they did. And that
13 caused us a lot of pain, obviously, because the
14 children were not given the opportunity to do what
15 they wanted to do. They were forced to accept
16 something that they didn't want.
17 We had a similar situation in
18 Arkansas, where it was probably worse because
19 intimidation was being put on the siblings of some of
20 the younger children and comments were being made.
21 And as a result, the whole program decided, didn't
22 want to split a community and have such kind of
23 attention, and they joined the, they all joined the
24 Arkansas State Soccer Association program.
25 We filed a grievance as a result of
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1 that, but again you have a window when people make a
2 decision within two weeks. They have their -- it was
3 really no movement, nothing happening after three
4 months, so we finally withdrew the agreements,
5 recognizing that any remedy that would have been given
6 would have been too late, and certainly weren't going
7 to cause any more review. We wanted to make sure that
8 we weren't the cause of any disruption in that
9 community at that point, and we withdrew that
10 complaint, and then there's --
11 Q You mentioned, if I can interrupt for
12 a second --
13 A Sure.
14 Q -- you mentioned threats or
15 intimidations about siblings. Can you elaborate?
16 A Sorry, I have ice in my mouth.
17 My understanding was that the siblings
18 were told that if the, that if the younger brothers or
19 sisters participated in the AYSO program that they
20 would not be entitled to participate in the USYSA
21 program for the older children. And that was a
22 situation which caused, obviously, a lot of anguish
23 for parents unnecessarily, and that's when the
24 decision was taken, the local regional commissioner of
25 AYSO finally said, look, we can't cause this kind of
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1 turmoil, it's harming our community, which is
2 Russelville, Arkansas, and so the program went over.
3 Q Did you have one other example of an
4 application of the 100 percent Rule?
5 A The Texas, the North Texas grievance,
6 and I prefer to let Frank Filo talk about that.
7 Q All right.
8 A Because that's a grievance that's
9 pending today, but again it's six months.
10 Q Fine. May I have a moment with my
11 witness?
12 A The joint board meeting, if you want
13 me to address that -- do you want me to add the joint
14 board meeting.
15 Q I slipped on that.
16 A I think we've had some references
17 certainly from Mr. Alkalay --
18 Q Let me give it a little bit more
19 focus. There was, you heard Mr. Alkalay ask Mr. West
20 if he was aware of the joint board meeting this year
21 between USYSA and AYSO boards. Did you hear that?
22 A Oh, yes.
23 Q Were you present at that board
24 meeting?
25 A Absolutely.
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1 Q Have you attended any other joint
2 board meeting between USYSA and AYSO?
3 A Back in '81.
4 Q And between 1981 and 1997, have there
5 been any joint board meetings between AYSO and USYSA?
6 A There have been two meetings between
7 the AYSO Executive Committee, which is a three-, four-
8 person body, and a representative sampling of the
9 USYSA board, but not the entire board.
10 Q At the joint board meeting this year,
11 were there discussions about the problems that have
12 arisen that have existed between AYSO and USYSA?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Was there any resolution of those
15 issues, those disagreements or problems?
16 A What may have been mischaracterized by
17 the -- we had a facilitator there, who recently
18 distributed a document of what he called agreements.
19 What they were were a series of understandings about
20 how the two organizations might work better together
21 to collaborate the two areas. One area we discussed
22 was, of course, affiliation, and the other area, which
23 is obviously of paramount importance to us is the
24 application of the 100 percent Rule to AYSO and
25 similar organizations.
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1 And the proposal that came out of the,
2 between board meetings was that the USYSA would
3 recommend, or their board would recommend a) the
4 non-applicability or the amendment of the 100 percent
5 rule so that it wouldn't apply to organizations like
6 AYSO, SAY, USYSA, excuse me, SAY, or, I guess YMCA.
7 That was our understanding. We, however, from
8 historical experience, know that with the best of
9 intentions, and the strongest of goodwill on the part
10 of the USYSA board, it is ultimately the states which
11 will vote on any such amendment. And we are always,
12 we will always be willing, as an organization, to
13 explore any possibility to settle any of these
14 disputes, and if those state associations do amend the
15 Rule, then we will consider that as a major shift in
16 USYSA's policy towards us, and we will respond
17 accordingly.
18 Q Who asked for the joint board
19 meeting? Who suggested it?
20 A That was a suggestion by the new
21 chairman, I believe, of the USYSA, Virgil Lewis. And
22 we believe that any meeting historically, any meetings
23 we have had with USYSA representatives have been
24 positive, begin to see each other's position, and
25 respect each other a little better, and therefore, we
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1 are very willingly accepted. Difficulty was finding a
2 date, obviously, with so many people and the distance
3 involved.
4 Q At the meeting, was any reference made
5 by USYSA representatives, the fact that any discussion
6 was subject to approval, or any resolution was subject
7 to approval of the National State Associations?
8 A Yes. Any change in the rules, it was
9 made clear that any change in the rules of USYSA was
10 subject to the National State Associations' approval.
11 We understood that.
12 Q All right.
13 A They would similarly be that for our
14 organization. We do not have any ability to bind our
15 organization, but, you know, we are pleased with the
16 meeting.
17 Q If I could take you back now and
18 change subjects with you to the USSF Foundation.
19 You saw earlier today, we saw earlier
20 today comparisons.
21 A Can I say one other thing? Our
22 concern is that whatever we do with the USYSA, in any,
23 any such change, we don't have a lot of confidence in
24 sticking because we saw what happened in the 1989
25 agreement, and therefore, if the governance situation
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1 remains the same with the USSF, we're just not
2 confident that a different leadership would just
3 change its mind again, so that is the concern we have.
4 Q Were you on the board of USSF at the
5 time when the USSF Foundation was established?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Was there discussion at the board
8 about how the USSF Foundation could be established,
9 and how it could be controlled?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Can you remember, can you summarize
12 the discussion of the USSF board in that regard,
13 please?
14 A There was some question, because the
15 money, the question was whether the proceeds from the
16 World Cup, which were the funds that were used
17 primarily to fund the Foundation, were in a sense USSF
18 funds or belonged to a separate organization. And
19 there was some discussion, and I would suppose
20 disagreement about it; however, the fact was that the
21 World Cup '94, was in agreement to transfer the money
22 to the foundation. So the issue was more of a, might
23 arguably be a theoretical one.
24 The control of the foundation was to
25 be put in a Board of Directors, was to be a separate
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1 non-profit foundation, and that Board of Directors was
2 going to be composed of certain of the officers, I'm
3 not sure if it's 5 or 7, but certain of the officers
4 of the USSF Board of Directors, and then the rest
5 would be voted by the USSF council. And at the last
6 moment, several of the members of the USSF, one in
7 particular, pushed through what we call a cumulative
8 voting provision so that the members that were
9 nominated and voted on at large, in a sense, could
10 represent interests, interests with large voting
11 blocks.
12 The net effect of that was that AYSO
13 has never had any representative on that board, and
14 the USSF Foundation has become, in my judgment, the
15 principal financing arm of the USSF as it should be,
16 and of U.S. Soccer, and it has just given, I think, a
17 $2 million plus loan to the Women's World Cup effort
18 for 1999, which I think is very good.
19 In addition, though, I think it has
20 inadvertently, because it doesn't have the kind of
21 representation that I think would be appropriate or
22 what I would say reasonable direct representation of
23 the members, it sometimes gets involved in giving
24 grants, which aid one organization in establishing
25 itself in a particular community as opposed to
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1 another, and I think that's unfortunate and not
2 appropriate.
3 Q Was there a nomination of an AYSO
4 member for membership on the USSF Foundation?
5 A Sure.
6 Q Who was that?
7 A Don West.
8 Q And was Don West -- by whom was Don
9 West nominated?
10 A I think I did. It might have been me,
11 Harvey, someone.
12 Q However, the National Council of USSF
13 did not elect Mr. West?
14 A No.
15 Q Does the USSF Foundation have a line
16 of credit open to the USSF?
17 A I'm not aware of any.
18 MR. GREGORY: I would follow that up
19 elsewhere. I have no further questions of Mr. Haimes,
20 at this time. Mr. Alkalay.
21 MR. ALKALAY: Can we take a five-minute
22 break maybe?
23 MS. BALDWIN: Five minutes, just five.
24 (Brief recess taken from 2:18 to 2:26
25 p.m.)
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1 MS. BALDWIN: You wanted one more
2 minute?
3 MR. GREGORY: We're done. I just
4 wanted to get him back.
5 MS. BALDWIN: You just wanted to get
6 him.
7 MS. BALDWIN: Mr. Alkalay, you are on.
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. ALKALAY:
10 Q Burt, you have been rather active in
11 your activities representing AYSO's position within
12 the U.S. Soccer Federation, haven't you?
13 A Yeah.
14 Q And you serve on a number of
15 committees and have served on a number of committees
16 in the past, correct?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q And you have made your opinions known
19 on many, many different subjects at a time, haven't
20 you?
21 A That's also correct.
22 Q And you've communicated both verbally
23 and in writing to members of the board and indeed all
24 members of the United States Soccer Federation?
25 A Certainly to the board, perhaps to the
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1 members --
2 Q And you have expressed your views on a
3 number of occasions about the concept of delegation,
4 haven't you?
5 A I don't know that I have spoke in
6 those terms.
7 Q Well, you have made it clear, have you
8 not, to the United States Soccer Federation that if
9 USSF delegated the right to coordinate and administer
10 youth soccer programs to AYSO, you would be perfectly
11 willing to accept that delegation?
12 A No.
13 Q You have never said that?
14 A It may have been in certain settlement
15 discussions where we talked about various steps that
16 might lead to a settlement broadening, if you are
17 talking about broadening of the youth division, of
18 creating a new youth committee.
19 Q I would like to show you a document
20 dated August 9th, 1995 from Burton Haimes, Chairman of
21 the board of AYSO, to all members of the United States
22 Soccer Federation, and I draw your attention, Mr.
23 Haimes, to Page 3, Paragraph 6. And the question
24 there is, and you are obviously here talking about the
25 USYSA proposed Rule changes which were proposed and
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1 adopted in 1995, and I quote: "Is AYSO an independent
2 organization? That is another myth. It is as
3 independent or dependent as USYSA and USASA. It has
4 not been delegated the responsibilities of running
5 USSF programs, but would accept such delegation if
6 called upon."
7 Those were your words, right?
8 A Absolutely.
9 Q So, in fact, you did say that if the
10 United States Soccer Federation delegated the
11 coordination and administration of youth soccer
12 programs to the AYSO, that would be perfectly okay.
13 You would be perfectly willing to accept it. That's
14 what you said?
15 A Again, I think we're just focusing on
16 narrow words and kind of blowing them out of
17 proportion or taking them out of the context in which
18 they were said.
19 Q That's why the panel is here. They
20 will decide whether it's blowing out of proportion or
21 not.
22 A You asked me.
23 Q So you said to the entire membership
24 of the United States Soccer Federation in the document
25 you wrote, and you prepared in August 9, 1995, that
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1 there's nothing wrong with delegating authority to run
2 USSF programs as long as the delegation is to you,
3 that is AYSO, I don't mean to you personally.
4 A Well, I know it's not to me
5 personally.
6 No, I don't think that's what was
7 meant by this at all. What we meant to say was that
8 we would take the responsibility as everybody else
9 should, not to us alone, but as everybody else in the
10 organization to participate, as we have on committees,
11 and in other ways, in kind of participating in the
12 USSF programs.
13 I don't think it meant we weren't
14 focusing on maybe every, chosen word delegated, you
15 can attribute what you will, and obviously the panel
16 to decide A, if it's relevant, and B what it means --
17 Q I'm sorry, Mr. Haimes. You don't
18 think it's relevant when you come before the panel,
19 when you come before the USSF?
20 MR. GREGORY: I wonder if Mr. Haimes
21 could complete his answer?
22 A What I have been saying is that we, as
23 an organization, what I was trying to say at that
24 point is we're prepared to step up and take the same
25 kind of responsibilities that USYSA takes.
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1 Q So that, so you have come before the
2 United States Olympic Committee, and you have alleged
3 that delegation of authority to coordinate and
4 administer USSF programs and youth is unlawful,
5 because it's the USYSA and the youth division, but if
6 it's to AYSO, it's not unlawful anymore?
7 A That's not what I said.
8 Q That's not what that says?
9 A It's not what we've said, and we'll
10 say it again today. We think it's unlawful, and we
11 think it's inappropriate. If the U.S. Olympic
12 Committee found that it were lawful and appropriate,
13 and they did delegate authority or they thought it was
14 appropriate, then, we would share it, but we don't
15 concede the fact that it's not appropriate.
16 Q So, when you said it has not been
17 delegated the responsibilities of running USSF
18 programs, but would accept such delegation if called
19 upon, you weren't expressing any views when you said
20 that, about whether it's lawful or not under the
21 Amateur Sports Act?
22 A No. Not at all. I wasn't addressing
23 the Amateur Sports Act at all.
24 Q Isn't it a fact that you really don't
25 think delegation is at all unlawful as long as it's to
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1 you as an organization?
2 A No, I deny that. I don't know why you
3 say that.
4 Q I didn't say that, Mr. Haimes, you
5 did.
6 A I didn't say that. I do think it's
7 unlawful, and I do think it's inappropriate, and I
8 think we're talking about distinctions between
9 operating programs and USSF programs.
10 Q I'm sorry, we're talking about what?
11 A Let's go on.
12 Q No, no. I would like to know what you
13 just said, just could you repeat what you just said.
14 A All I said was, I think that the, what
15 I'm trying to say is that the word "delegated" here
16 didn't mean the same thing as what we're talking about
17 in the context of this, as this hearing, and, in fact,
18 it is AYSO's position, to which I subscribe, that
19 there has been an unlawful delegation of authority by
20 the USSF to one of its constituent members.
21 Q So your testimony here is that when
22 you use the word "delegation" on Page 3 of Paragraph 6
23 of the document you authored and circulated to the
24 USSF membership, that word "delegation" here doesn't
25 mean the same thing as the delegation you are
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1 complaining about in this proceeding. Is that your
2 testimony?
3 A It was used in a different context,
4 that's what I'm saying.
5 Q Well, tell me how it's different.
6 A What it says here is that if it is to
7 be a delegation, and if it is found to be lawful, then
8 we would be willing to participate in trying to help
9 the United States Federation run its programs, not to
10 the exclusion of anybody else, and not because we
11 wanted to do it. And it was almost like a gesture of
12 saying we were willing to help the Federation. It's
13 consistent with our philosophy and our position all
14 along, and we will need the Federation to help the
15 Federation.
16 Q And you're willing to help the
17 Federation continue in unlawful activity?
18 A No, if it's found not to be unlawful.
19 MS. BALDWIN: Are you going to submit
20 that as an exhibit?
21 A Yes, I am.
22 (Discussion off the record.)
23 MR. TOLES: I kind of do object, if you
24 are offering something into evidence, and we can't
25 receive a copy right now.
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1 MR. ALKALAY: We can give you the copy
2 and then duplicate them all in the morning for you, or
3 after the hearing today. We expect the panel to have
4 all of these pieces of paper.
5 MR. TOLES: It would make more sense to
6 have it now than tomorrow.
7 MR. ALKALAY: We weren't precisely sure
8 what all these witnesses were going to be saying.
9 A Would you like another one?
10 Q Thank you, Burt.
11 MS. BALDWIN: But if we could get
12 copies at the end of the day.
13 MR. ALKALAY: We will have a copy of
14 these for each of the panel, first thing in the
15 morning.
16 MR. LEVY: The business office is real
17 efficient at making copies right away. We have used
18 them throughout the day.
19 MS. BALDWIN: Let's go ahead, and if we
20 could just have them at the end of the day, I think
21 that would be just fine.
22 MR. ALKALAY: May I continue, and we'll
23 provide copies. Do you want to ask a question, Mr.
24 Toles?
25 Q Now, do you know who Dale Lefever is?
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1 A Sure.
2 Q Who is he?
3 A Dale Lefever was the facilitator for
4 the Soccer Summit in Chicago in, tell me, was it 1993?
5 MR. STEINBRECHER: 1993, February.
6 A Time goes by when you are having fun.
7 Q And do you recall having any
8 communications or correspondence with him in or about
9 June of 1993?
10 A I'm sure you are going to recall for
11 me. I don't have any recollection, but I do
12 communicate a lot.
13 Q By the way, did you ever say to
14 anyone, the fact that USYSA and USASA were separately
15 incorporated was irrelevant?
16 A Not to my knowledge.
17 Q Did you ever say to -- well, did you
18 ever say to anyone or focus on the fact that all AYSO
19 wanted from the Federation was respect and a healthy
20 exchange of ideas? Do you ever remember saying that?
21 A Let's see, I have been doing this
22 since 1981, now, 1997. It must, it's conceivable that
23 at some time I might have said that. There were a lot
24 of comments made by a lot of other people.
25 Q And you have expressed the view, I
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1 think, more than once that from AYSO's point of view,
2 children come first, and the game of soccer comes
3 second. That's something you have said repeatedly,
4 haven't you?
5 A It's -- yes, I suppose I have said
6 it. I don't know if I have said it repeatedly.
7 Q Now, in June of 1993, do you remember
8 addressing the subject of the task force report with
9 Dr. Lefever? I think he's a Ph.D.
10 A I don't particularly.
11 Q And do you remember saying in
12 correspondence to Mr. Lefever: It's largely
13 irrelevant whether the USASA and the USYSA are
14 separately incorporated. Their programs need to be
15 coordinated but separately run. AYSO is different.
16 We are interested in the growth of children first and
17 foremost and use soccer as a vehicle. All we are
18 interested in from the Federation is respect and a
19 healthy exchange of ideas; the idea of merging is just
20 plain silly and something that we will resist, even if
21 we would be given a controlling voice.
22 Do you remember saying that?
23 A I'm assuming you're going to show me a
24 letter where I wrote it, and I write a lot of things,
25 and I may have felt it at that moment that that was
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1 the right thing to write, and the right thing to say.
2 Q You still feel that way today, don't
3 you?
4 A No, again, it's out of context.
5 Q Well, out of context with what, Mr.
6 Haimes?
7 A If you are trying to attribute that to
8 AYSO's position, you are wrong in trying to attribute
9 that to that being AYSO's position. It's my
10 expression in 1993 of what I felt at the time was
11 appropriate. I don't think it has very much to do
12 with how the situation has evolved or where we are
13 today.
14 Q Has your view changed, that a merger
15 would be silly, that is, a merger of USYSA --
16 A Yes, I think, I think that's a bad
17 choice of words, and it may have been frustration, it
18 may have been in the context of what was said to me,
19 but I don't, you know, whether there should be a
20 merger or there shouldn't be a merger, I have no
21 opinion at this point.
22 Q I'm going to offer this also into
23 evidence. It's a letter dated June 21, 1993.
24 (Respondent's Exhibit D was marked.)
25 Q You have talked about the 100 percent
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1 rule, and some of the instances where there have been
2 difficulties within the state associations.
3 In how many states have there been
4 complaints that have been brought to your attention?
5 A Over what time period?
6 Q Over the last three or four years.
7 A I just can't recall.
8 Q In how many instances have you gone to
9 the United States Soccer Federation or USYSA with an
10 example of a problem in the state association, which
11 you felt that the 100 percent Rule was not being
12 properly applied?
13 A When you say "you," do you mean
14 personally?
15 Q AYSO?
16 A AYSO is kind of a big organization,
17 and when Ray Thomsett was the Executive Director of
18 USYSA, he and our Executive Director worked very hard
19 to try to localize, minimize and resolve the disputes,
20 as I think you would expect, and so it was in
21 countless instances, but I don't keep track of them,
22 and they're not always brought to my attention, so I'm
23 not sure I can really, really tell you.
24 Q So most of the difficulties that were
25 arising with regard to the implementation of the Rule
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1 were dealt with before it gave rise to any kind of
2 informal grievance; isn't that right?
3 A Dealt with or not dealt with, simply
4 accepted as the fact that it happened. As I testified
5 before, you have a window, you have a window of time.
6 Sometimes it's as small as a week; sometimes, it's two
7 weeks. People have to make up their minds. They have
8 to know where the kids are going to play. The
9 officials want to know what they're doing. They're
10 volunteers. They have other things to do in their
11 life. There's a limited amount of time they're going
12 to spend.
13 Q And in most instances, those problems
14 are resolved locally?
15 A Not resolved locally, but handled
16 locally. I won't say they were resolved, and they
17 weren't getting resolved. We were losing programs,
18 that's what was happening.
19 Q You also knew, though, didn't you
20 certainly in the course of your tenure as the
21 president of AYSO, you knew that it wasn't necessary
22 in order to comply with the 100 percent Rule that the
23 whole region joined. You knew that, didn't you?
24 A Did I know that?
25 Q Yeah, as the president of AYSO, you
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1 knew that it wasn't --
2 A The president gave me a cloak of
3 knowledge that I wouldn't otherwise have.
4 Q I'm just asking. Did you know as the
5 president of AYSO that the 100 percent Rule could be
6 complied with in ways other than an entire AYSO region
7 joining the Federation?
8 A Those were the demands made on our
9 program. There was an attempt to say that if you set
10 up an independent club that that would meet the
11 rules. Requiring two or three teams to set up an
12 independent club, and then defining what it meant to
13 be an independent club, for example, did they have to
14 have separate bank accounts? Did they have to have
15 separate signatories? Could the same officials of one
16 organization be the same officials of the other
17 organization?
18 When you put these kind of impediments
19 in front of volunteers and they ask those questions
20 and you have to work through it, what you have is
21 people throwing up their hands and saying this is only
22 about kids playing soccer. Why should we have to go
23 through all these things. Why should we have to make
24 more out of it than it is, and they would either leave
25 or complain bitterly.
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1 Q But you understood that an AYSO
2 registrant would be permitted to participate in any
3 USYSA league by joining an already existing USYSA
4 affiliated club, or by forming a separate club and
5 joining a league. You knew that?
6 A We knew that those rules were a
7 shifting, that they never had any kind of formality as
8 to what they meant, and they were applied differently
9 in each case, and we knew that to try to apply meant
10 that by the time you got finished with it, after three
11 to six or nine weeks, the whole situation was over.
12 Q Well, did you ever communicate these
13 various options, that is, did the national office of
14 AYSO communicate these options --
15 A Absolutely.
16 Q -- to its members?
17 A Absolutely. We tried, whenever
18 someone asked us, we tried to work through the
19 issues. We actually got involved to try to help.
20 Q And wasn't the net effect of that to
21 reduce disputes?
22 A The net effect of that was to try to
23 reduce these disputes. We always try to reduce these
24 disputes. We don't certainly try to increase them.
25 Is that what you are --
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1 Q With the exception of Arkansas, Plano,
2 and Havelock?
3 A Michigan, Genesee Star Soccer.
4 Q With the exception of Arkansas, Plano,
5 and Havelock, were there any other complaints about
6 the implementation of the 100 percent rule that
7 weren't dealt with locally and resolved locally?
8 A Plano.
9 Q Well, Plano went through a grievance
10 proceeding, didn't it, pursuant to a U.S. Soccer
11 Federation Rule?
12 A It's still going through a grievance
13 procedure.
14 Q In fact, there has been a presentation
15 of a letter to you outlining how it was going to be
16 resolved and the response is being awaited, isn't that
17 correct?
18 A Six months after the event.
19 Q But it's correct that a resolution has
20 been proposed; is that correct?
21 A It's correct that an unacceptable
22 resolution has been proposed.
23 Q Have you communicated that it's
24 unacceptable to anyone at the Federation?
25 A We have been talking. First of all,
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1 at the Federation, no; at USYSA, yes.
2 Q To whom have you communicated that?
3 A Virgil Lewis.
4 Q When did you do that?
5 A Let's see, last Wednesday.
6 Q And the Arkansas matter, that was
7 actually withdrawn, was it not?
8 A We did it as a gesture of good will,
9 because -- towards the USYSA -- we didn't do it
10 because the situation was resolved; the situation was
11 not resolved.
12 Q Well, you are aware that Mr. Gregory
13 wrote a letter to Melissa Apcel in which he says, I
14 quote: AYSO believes it will not be necessary to
15 reschedule the grievance it filed against the Arkansas
16 State Soccer Association. The concern I expressed
17 about ASSA, at the end of my letter to you dated
18 February 13, 1997 was alleviated by subsequent
19 correspondence from Virgil Lewis to Burt Haimes.
20 The problem was solved, wasn't it?
21 A The problem was not solved. The
22 problem could not be solved, that's the problem.
23 Q And then Mr. Gregory went on to say:
24 AYSO appreciates the role USSF played in resolving, at
25 least for the time being, the Russelville issues.
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1 That's dated February 26th, 1997.
2 AYSO appreciates the role USSF played
3 in resolving the Russelville issues.
4 A It seems to me ironic that you would
5 turn an effort and a gesture on behalf of AYSO, to try
6 to reduce the intentions into something other than it
7 was. I'm telling you that nothing happened. It
8 wasn't resolved. It wasn't resolvable.
9 MS. BALDWIN: Gentlemen, let's ask
10 questions and not argue.
11 MR. ALKALAY: And we would also offer
12 this as an exhibit.
13 (Respondent's Exhibit E was marked.)
14 Q Very early in this proceeding, I think
15 during my opening statement, I quoted from a letter
16 that you wrote in May of 1991 wherein you expressed
17 the view --
18 MR. GREGORY: Excuse me, could I see
19 the exhibit that was just offered?
20 MS. BALDWIN: It's right here.
21 MR. GREGORY: Do you have the letter of
22 February 13?
23 MR. ALKALAY: No. I may have it, I
24 just can't put my hands on it at the moment.
25 Q And in that letter, you said, in
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1 writing to Hank Steinbrecher: "Our view of the
2 Federation is a different one from yours. As you try
3 to push USYSA and USASA closer to the Federation, we
4 will object. We think the Federation should not be a
5 body directly involved in running soccer programs, but
6 a Federation of organizations that do run programs.
7 Do you remember saying that?
8 A Yes.
9 MR. ALKALAY: I would like to offer
10 this letter as evidence.
11 MR. GREGORY: What letter is that?
12 MR. ALKALAY: This is the letter dated
13 May 21, 1991, from Burt Haimes to Hank Steinbrecher.
14 (Respondent's Exhibit F was marked.)
15 Q It is your position, today, is it not,
16 that you do not believe the Federation should be a
17 body that's involved in running soccer programs, but
18 should be a Federation of organizations, an
19 organization of organizations that do run programs.
20 You harbor that view to this day, do
21 you not?
22 A Harbor it? I love that word. My view
23 is that the Federation ought to run the national
24 programs, the national team programs and the other
25 organizations should be an open and user friendly
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1 organization where the other organizations support
2 that efort.
3 Q So that you believe, just as you did
4 in earlier years --
5 A When I was young?
6 Q -- earlier years, meaning earlier in
7 your tenure as the president of AYSO -- that the
8 national governing body should restrict itself to,
9 let's say, the elite programs and delegate its
10 responsibilities to run a grass-roots program to
11 someone else?
12 A No, I don't think, I don't think it
13 should delegate anything.
14 Q Are you familiar with the various
15 responsibilities that the national governing body has?
16 A Probably haven't read it recently, so,
17 maybe I am; maybe I'm not.
18 Q In fact, one of the things that you
19 allege in your complaint is that the United States
20 Soccer Federation has failed to develop interest in
21 the sport; isn't that what you have alleged in the
22 complaint?
23 A (Nod of head.)
24 Q I'm sorry, what is your answer?
25 A I don't have the complaint in front of
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1 me. Do you have a copy of the complaint?
2 MR. GREGORY: It's in evidence.
3 A Okay.
4 MR. GREGORY: It's in evidence.
5 A Whatever the document says, the
6 document says.
7 Q Okay. So you accept the fact that a
8 national governing body has a responsibility to run
9 the vertically integrated program, don't you?
10 A I don't, again, I don't think of it as
11 vertical integration.
12 Q Do you think that an NGB has the
13 responsibility to develop grass-roots programs?
14 A Yes.
15 Q So that when you say that the
16 Federation should not be running soccer programs, but
17 should be an organization of organizations, you are
18 suggesting that the United States Soccer Federation
19 disavow the responsibilities it has as a national
20 governing body member of the United States Olympic
21 Committee?
22 A Not necessarily. There's the
23 inter-youth committee which was a cynical shell, just
24 a shell organization. Why shouldn't the inter-youth
25 committee deal with these matters?
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1 Q Okay. So in other words, if the
2 responsibility of running youth programs had been
3 delegated to the inter-youth committee, that would be
4 okay?
5 A Inter-youth committee is a committee
6 of the organization. The inter-youth committee has,
7 as members, everybody who is involved in youth. I
8 don't consider that a delegation of anything.
9 Q You don't consider that a delegation?
10 A No, no.
11 Q Okay. So that as far, from your point
12 of view then, the United States Soccer Federation has
13 the responsibility, under the USOC Constitution and
14 the Amateur Sports Act to develop grass-roots
15 programs, but you are objecting to the fact that it's
16 developing grass-roots programs through its youth
17 division. Isn't that right?
18 A I think it has given away the
19 authority and responsibility to the National State
20 Associations who are not accountable to the USSF in
21 any size, shape or form, who don't report, who don't
22 respond.
23 Look at what we just did. We tried to
24 get, just simply get copies of their bylaws and their
25 statutes. We couldn't even get them. You couldn't
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1 get them. What does that tell you about the level of
2 control that the USSF exhibits over its National State
3 Associations to whom they have delegated the
4 responsibility?
5 Q All right. So I take it, then, Mr.
6 Haimes, that you concede the fact that the rules
7 themselves provide for substantial accountability, but
8 your real grievance is that they're not being
9 enforced; isn't that right?
10 A No. I think it's more than that. I
11 think the Rule, the whole Rule structure is not
12 correct.
13 Q So your point, you are saying to the
14 panel, that under the Rule book itself, there are no
15 rules which require NSAs to be accountable to the
16 Federation.
17 A I'm not saying that. You are putting
18 words in my mouth.
19 Q I'm trying to understand what it is,
20 what you are trying to say.
21 A It is not my role here to tell the
22 Olympic Committee how, or to tell you how the
23 Federation should be run. What we have done is point
24 out things that are not proper and not correct in the
25 Federation. We are obviously willing to participate
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1 in remedial discussions. I do not think this is the
2 appropriate forum for it, nor am I prepared to discuss
3 it.
4 Q Do you concede that the Rule book
5 provides for a substantial amount of accountability to
6 the NSAs to the Federation? Do you concede that
7 point?
8 A It has some rules.
9 Q That's a pretty good concession, Burt,
10 coming from you, I must say. We're making tremendous
11 progress.
12 So there are rules which provide for
13 accountability, correct?
14 A Again, I don't have the Rule book in
15 front of me, and you are asking me to make a judgment
16 based on rules that I don't have in front of me.
17 Q Okay. Would you like the Rule book?
18 A I don't think I'm going to sit here
19 and read it in front of you. Would you like me to do
20 that?
21 Q No, you're right. It probably
22 wouldn't be a very productive use of time.
23 MS. BALDWIN: I agree that it would not
24 be a productive use of time. Could we please move on.
25 Q We have imposed a great deal on the
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1 panel.
2 The truth is, though, by your own
3 exhibits, AYSO exercises exclusive jurisdiction over
4 its own programs, isn't that right?
5 A I don't know what you mean by
6 exclusive jurisdiction over its own programs.
7 Q Those were your words.
8 A Internally, we run our programs. Are
9 we subject to the rules of the United States Soccer
10 Federation? Absolutely.
11 Q Well, nobody tells you how to run your
12 programs, where to run your programs, when to run your
13 programs, what rules to apply, what philosophy to
14 adopt; isn't that right?
15 A But we do have obligations to the
16 Federation. We can't run international programs if
17 we're going to go abroad, we need permission. If
18 we're going to bring in international teams, we need
19 permission.
20 Q That's a requirement under the Amateur
21 Sports Act, isn't it?
22 A I don't know. I know it's under the
23 Federation rules, and that's the rules to which we're
24 subject. We're also required to honor and respect the
25 disciplinary proceedings of other member bodies of the
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1 United States Soccer Federation, and we do.
2 Q Can an AYSO officer be removed by the
3 Federation?
4 A Can an AYSO officer be removed by the
5 Federation? I don't believe there's any such Rule.
6 Q Well, you know that it can't, don't
7 you? Why are you being evasive about that, Burt? You
8 know very well that the United States Soccer
9 Federation can't remove an AYSO officer?
10 A I don't believe they can, but I'm
11 trying to search my mind as an attorney, as to whether
12 there's some basis for doing it.
13 Q Besides searching your mind as an
14 attorney, isn't it a fact that the Federation can't do
15 that?
16 A But can the Federation appoint an
17 officer of the USYSA, no? Can it appoint one of our
18 officers, no.
19 Q Burt, I will move on. You can argue
20 with me all you like, but you know that the United
21 States Soccer Federation can't remove an AYSO officer,
22 can it?
23 A I don't believe they can.
24 Q And if anything should happen, if AYSO
25 were to be dissolved, the United States Soccer
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1 Federation would not be the beneficiary or would not
2 be the recipient of its assets in dissolution, would
3 it?
4 A I wouldn't believe so.
5 Q Now, you spoke earlier about Project
6 40. Now, isn't it a fact that Project 40 is a program
7 that was supported and endorsed by the national, men's
8 national team coach?
9 MR. GREGORY: Excuse me. I think that
10 was in this morning -- if Mr. Alkalay is doing his
11 cross-examination of this morning's testimony, that's
12 fine, I have no problem with that, but I just would
13 like to recognize that he's not going to go back and
14 do that all over again tomorrow.
15 MS. BALDWIN: I should hope not,
16 absolutely.
17 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
18 MR. ALKALAY: Okay. I'm not going to
19 argue procedure. If it turns out that there were a
20 few items that we would like to recall Burt tomorrow
21 morning, I'm assuming it won't be precluded. I'm
22 hoping to get through with it as much as I can. He
23 will be here until 3:00 tomorrow.
24 MS. BALDWIN: As long as it's not going
25 over the same old ground over and over again.
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1 MR. ALKALAY: I have no intention of
2 repeating it.
3 MS. BALDWIN: Points of clarification,
4 certainly, or questions you would like, but I would
5 hate to have to go through all of this again tomorrow.
6 MR. ALKALAY: I have no intention of
7 doing it.
8 MS. BALDWIN: Thank you.
9 MR. ALKALAY: I couldn't stand it
10 myself.
11 MS. BALDWIN: I might get testy.
12 MR. ROWAN: She will get testy.
13 MR. ALKALAY: She sounds like she's
14 getting testy already.
15 Q So Project 40 was presented to the
16 NBOD as the project that was endorsed by the men's
17 national team coach, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And you voted against it?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you voted against it because it
22 counted or ran afoul of the AYSO philosophy, correct?
23 A No.
24 Q Well, isn't one of AYSO's principles,
25 sort of, education comes first?
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1 A It's because I am also a member of the
2 Board of Directors as a person. I think that we're
3 not, we were told many times to leave our hats outside
4 the door, and our affiliations outside the door, and
5 it is my personal belief, and it may be shared by a
6 lot of people in my organization, though I haven't
7 polled them, that the Project 40 is not the right way
8 to go to increase the caliber and quality of the
9 players available to the national team. It does not
10 mean that I'm not interested in increasing the quality
11 and the caliber of the players for the national team.
12 I just don't think that's the right way to go. That's
13 my personal opinion.
14 Q And when you cast that vote, you were
15 casting it without any organization or affiliation?
16 A I was casting it as a member of the
17 Board of Directors of the United States Soccer
18 Federation.
19 Q Representing AYSO's interest?
20 A Sometimes I represent AYSO interests,
21 I suppose, but most of the time, I do what I think is
22 in the best interest of the Federation, and I hope
23 that every other board member does that as well.
24 Q And you feel that, so that you have
25 considerable voice there, don't you?
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1 A I talk a lot, as you can tell.
2 Q Now, there also came a time when there
3 was a USSF Rule amendment that provided that removal
4 of an officer of the United States Soccer Federation
5 would also constitute removal of that individual, if
6 that individual also served as an officer of USYSA.
7 Are you familiar with that amendment?
8 A Vaguely, shall we say.
9 Q And isn't it a fact that you wrote Mr.
10 Rothenberg in March of 1996 objecting to that Rule
11 amendment?
12 A Well, as you have seen, and as you
13 have shown, I write a lot of letters, so my objection
14 on that, if I remember correctly, my objection to that
15 was I thought it was a cynical attempt to try to, on
16 advice of someone, to try to see that you could, when
17 the actual hearing occurred, or when the Olympic
18 Committee was going to hear the dispute between us,
19 that you could point out, as you already pointed out,
20 that therefore, the USSF does exert the kind of
21 control over USYSA that you claim it does. I'm not
22 aware of that ever having happened.
23 Q So that an amendment that was designed
24 to clarify the level of control and authority that the
25 U.S. Soccer Federation exerts over the youth division
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1 and its NSAs, you oppose because you thought it might
2 blunt criticism leveled against the Federation by
3 AYSO?
4 A The way it was described to me was a
5 cynical attempt to try to comply with what was
6 believed to be the Olympic Committee requirements.
7 That's the way it was put to me, and I objected to it.
8 Q Is there an Olympic Committee
9 requirement about removal of officers?
10 A I don't know. I don't think so.
11 MR. ALKALAY: I have nothing further.
12 MS. BALDWIN: Does anyone on the panel
13 have any questions that they would like to ask the
14 witness at this time?
15 MR. SATROM: No.
16 MR. GREGORY: I do have redirect.
17 MS. BALDWIN: This went on too long.
18 MR. GREGORY: If you don't mind.
19 MS. BALDWIN: You may.
20 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. GREGORY:
23 Q Well, talking about -- Mr. Alkalay
24 just finished USSF adopting rules and the critique of
25 our complaint filed, that is AYSO's complaint filed
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1 with the U.S. Olympic Committee -- when was the
2 grievance procedure that Mr. Alkalay was referring
3 to? When was the formal grievance procedure first
4 adopted by USSF?
5 A In August of 1996.
6 Q August of 1996. Was it after the AYSO
7 filed its complaint in this matter, but before the
8 USSF moved to dismiss it for failure to exhaust that
9 grievance procedure?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And so let's talk about Arkansas.
12 AYSO filed a grievance with respect to the Arkansas
13 matter; is that right?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q That's Russelville, Arkansas?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And they filed the grievance with the
18 USSF?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Can you recall what happened in
21 Arkansas? Was there a program that had created a
22 separate organization with separate bank accounts and
23 separate officers and separate volunteers to conduct
24 an AYSO region?
25 A That's correct.
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1 Q And did you understand that it was the
2 contention of the Arkansas USYSA organization that the
3 AYSO program conducted in a separate organization with
4 a separate bank account, separate officers, and
5 volunteers had to disband, or the older children would
6 not be allowed to play?
7 A That was, that's my understanding.
8 Q And so the Arkansas USYSA people
9 threatened, that's the threat that you talked about,
10 about siblings?
11 A About older-age siblings not being
12 able to participate.
13 Q What happened to the registration
14 money that was collected by the AYSO region, and the
15 volunteers there who had children in the older-aged
16 group who were not going to be allowed to play soccer?
17 A It was taken over by the USYSA and put
18 in their own local USYSA program and put in their
19 coffers.
20 Q So they took the money?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q What happened to the fields that the
23 AYSO region had reserved for play in Russelville,
24 Arkansas?
25 A USYSA local officials went down to
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1 the, I guess the rec or the school authorities, and
2 switched the permits, got them to switch the permits,
3 without AYSO's approval, into the U.S., local USYSA
4 program's name.
5 Q USYSA promised to have that money
6 returned to AYSO, right?
7 A (Nod of head.)
8 Q Is that correct?
9 A Some portion of it. They promised to
10 turn over the state registration fees and there was an
11 issue as to what was going to happen with the
12 remaining monies.
13 Q Have you ever been able to identify
14 whether that money was returned, in fact, to AYSO?
15 A No.
16 Q In fact, you have been unable to
17 determine that?
18 A Not today, I don't know what's
19 happened to it.
20 Q And when you were promised that the
21 money would be returned, and you were told that it was
22 too late to reestablish an AYSO program without
23 disrupting the play of children in Russelville,
24 Arkansas, what did you do?
25 A We concluded that in the best
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1 interests of the children in Russelville, that we
2 would withdraw our grievance.
3 Q Until?
4 A Until the next season, and see what
5 happens with the, you know, with the, whether there
6 was a letter that Virgil Lewis and I worked on, which
7 was supposed to go out to the children and their
8 parents, saying these are your choices, and assuming
9 that that letter goes out, we reserved our rights, if
10 they didn't respect that, to go back and open up the
11 grievance again.
12 Q And when was it, approximately, that
13 you filed this grievance with the Russelville,
14 Arkansas, or with USSF over the Russelville, Arkansas
15 matter; do you recall?
16 A December, wasn't it December? That's
17 my --
18 Q And when you withdrew the grievance?
19 A It was March.
20 Q Had there been -- well, I think this
21 letter here, if I may, there's a letter from me to
22 Melissa Apcel?
23 MS. BALDWIN: It's over here.
24 That's --
25 MR. SATROM: That's the February '97.
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1 Q February 26th. By the time that was
2 withdrawn, had there been any hearing before a
3 grievance panel?
4 A None.
5 Q There was mention of Plano, Texas in
6 cross-examination, Mr. Haimes. I know you have
7 feelings about that, but Mr. Filo is here to talk
8 about Plano, Texas. I will cover that subject when we
9 get there, but was a grievance filed over the Plano,
10 Texas matter?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And when was that grievance filed,
13 approximately?
14 A I believe it was the end of January.
15 MS. BALDWIN: Of '97?
16 A '97, excuse me.
17 Q Do you recall that AYSO asked USSF to
18 act on an emergency basis?
19 A Yes, we did.
20 Q When was the hearing of that
21 grievance?
22 A I believe it was in April.
23 Q Of 1997?
24 A Of 1997.
25 Q And have you received the result of
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1 that grievance?
2 A Not to date.
3 MR. GREGORY: Thank you, Mr. Haimes. I
4 have one other thing on my mind, and I can't remember
5 what it is.
6 A I'm not going anywhere.
7 MR. ALKALAY: Hold it, Burt, just one
8 second.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. ALKALAY:
11 Q I just want to ask you a couple of
12 quick questions, which was somewhat suggested by the
13 redirect.
14 AYSO then has availed itself of the
15 Rule 2101 grievance proceeding that is provided by the
16 United States Soccer Federation, correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And the Plano decision, as I asked
19 about before, was awaiting an attempt at a resolution
20 between you and Virgil Lewis, correct?
21 A We never, we were never under that
22 impression. I'm not the right one to ask.
23 MR. GREGORY: What are you asking, I'm
24 sorry, Mr. Alkalay?
25 MS. BALDWIN: I would really prefer, I
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1 believe, you have a witness who knows a great deal
2 more about the Plano situation.
3 A They handled it. Okay. Yeah. Wait
4 until Frank Filo gets up.
5 MS. BALDWIN: So, he's asking --
6 MR. GREGORY: Yes, I understand now.
7 A He's asking me whether or not there
8 was an understanding that we were to wait until Virgil
9 and I tried to work it out.
10 MR. GREGORY: I think the issue is how
11 the panel left it. Mr. Levy and Mr. Filo are going to
12 address that issue.
13 MR. LEVY: I can tell you that I
14 represented AYSO there, and there was no --
15 MR. ALKALAY: Wait. I will pass and
16 wait until Mr. Filo testifies on that subject. I just
17 have two very quick questions. I will wait, Fred,
18 until you bring up the Plano matter later. I just
19 want to understand one thing.
20 Q As a matter of philosophy, Burt, isn't
21 it a fact that AYSO has never really sought to keep
22 the gifted older players in your program, and that you
23 have actually, almost anticipated or expected a
24 transition from AYSO from your programs into USYSA?
25 A I know you would love a simple
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1 answer. The answer is we are addressing the issue.
2 We do not believe that the children at the higher end
3 are being, that their needs are being appropriately
4 met, and that we are addressing the issue of the
5 accelerated, excuse me, of the better players, as we
6 speak, within the confines of our philosophy and our
7 emphasis and our directions.
8 Q An activity which, under your own
9 policy statement, should be kept at a minimum?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay. And you have said, though, that
12 AYSO does not seek to keep the gifted player in its
13 program. You have expressed that view, haven't you?
14 A We don't try to keep any player beyond
15 their desire to stay.
16 Q And one of the reasons is, is that the
17 players recognize that if they want to pursue their
18 talents and have their talents developed, they move on
19 to USYSA in the Federation programs; isn't that
20 correct?
21 A Some do.
22 MR. LEVY: Can I object to this whole
23 line? This is not going to the redirect that Mr.
24 Gregory presented. This is --
25 MS. BALDWIN: I thought I would let you
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1 ask a couple of questions to see what the nature of
2 the subject would be, and I --
3 MR. ALKALAY: Mrs. Baldwin, we have
4 hardly kept to strict evidentiary rules. We have had
5 an enormous amount of hearsay and lawyers aren't
6 standing up and objecting. This is a subject which
7 certainly goes to the heart of the differences between
8 the organizations and which really goes to the fact
9 that addresses the nature, scope, quality of their
10 program.
11 MS. BALDWIN: And I agree with that,
12 but I have heard you, I believe, already ask him that
13 same question, maybe couched a little differently, but
14 on the differences of the philosophy of USSF.
15 MR. ALKALAY: In other words, I have
16 beaten it to death?
17 MS. BALDWIN: Yes, sir.
18 MR. ALKALAY: I will move on.
19 Q My last question to you, Burt, is
20 this. Are you aware of any instance in which an AYSO
21 player has ever been excluded from the Olympic
22 Development Program?
23 A There is a certain presumption that I
24 have been, that I have an eyesight --
25 Q Can't that question be answered yes or
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1 no?
2 A I don't know. I don't know.
3 MR. ALKALAY: Okay. Thank you.
4 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. Answer I don't
5 know.
6 A Sorry.
7 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
8 MS. BALDWIN: Now, any questions from
9 the panel here?
10 Okay. Let's move on with your last
11 witness.
12 MR. GREGORY: Thank you. Our last
13 witness will be Frank Filo from Plano, Texas. I'm
14 going to ask Mr. Levy to conduct the examination of
15 Mr. Filo, with your permission.
16 I told you he really wouldn't clean up
17 a whole lot when he got his luggage.
18 FRANK FILO,
19 the witness herein, having been first duly sworn to
20 state the whole truth, testified on his oath as
21 follows:
22 EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. LEVY:
24 Q Mr. Filo, can you state your name for
25 the record, please?
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1 A Yes, Frank Arnold Filo.
2 Q And what is your current association
3 with AYSO?
4 A I am currently the regional
5 commissioner for a region identified as 1010 Plano,
6 Texas.
7 Q That's in North Texas State Soccer
8 Association and jurisdiction?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q When did you first become associated
11 with AYSO?
12 A In the fall of 1993, when the Plano
13 Youth Sports Authority, which I was actively involved
14 with at that time, took on sanction responsibility
15 which was then identified as Region 906 in Plano,
16 Texas.
17 Q And why was it that your organization
18 decided to affiliate with AYSO at that time?
19 A What had occurred is that the Plano
20 Sports Authority, just for some background because I
21 think it's important the panel at least understand
22 what Plano Sports Authority is, it's a youth
23 organization that was brought together in the early
24 '70s, in fact, 1970 to be exact, when it was
25 chartered, and it accommodates all levels of sports,
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1 the football program, baseball program, soccer
2 program, softball program, gymnastics program,
3 wrestling programs, all for the youth. Typically
4 working with youth from four and a half years of age
5 on up through high school levels.
6 They had a soccer program in
7 existence. They were the first originators of soccer
8 in the Plano corridor in the early '70s, and it was
9 some time in the '70s -- and I don't have a history on
10 it, I understand that the sanctioning of soccer in the
11 United States came into being. And at that time,
12 there was a gentleman in charge of their soccer
13 program who saw a need to become affiliated with the
14 national governing body, similar to what he identified
15 as little league baseball at the time, saying this is
16 what soccer was going to become. It would become
17 another little league association with governing rules
18 on a national basis, and he thought it was imperative
19 that the local association of the Plano Sports
20 Authority become part of this.
21 At that time, the board of directors
22 of the Plano Sports Authority did not see a need for
23 that kind of affiliation, because there were going to
24 be some additional costs associated with taking on an
25 affiliation, and they told him that they thought it
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1 was in the best interests of the Sports Authority not
2 to become affiliated in any capacity at that point in
3 time.
4 He was opposed to that. As a result,
5 the Plano Youth Soccer Association was formed, and its
6 affiliation through North Texas State Soccer
7 Association, which was then under USYSA, developed a
8 soccer program in conjunction with the program that
9 continued on at the Plano Sports Authority.
10 As the years went on, the Plano Sports
11 Authority program grew, just as the Plano Youth Soccer
12 Association programs grew to a point where there were
13 many area tournaments being held and kids were going
14 to them.
15 As you all know, there's a lot of peer
16 pressure at the school levels, particularly when you
17 are talking first, second, third, fourth, fifth
18 graders talking about going to tournament play. The
19 Plano Sports Authority made many overtures to try to
20 get into these tournaments, along with the YMCA
21 organization, which opted to bring a soccer program
22 into being at the, sometime in the mid '70s.
23 The bottom line was they were denied
24 admittance into the programs, and the primary reason
25 was there was no insurance for their players; neither
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1 association had insurance coverage, and when I got
2 involved with it, it made it a very logical piece of a
3 sense thing, if the child is insured and he's playing
4 with an association that is insured, something
5 occurred, where does the liability lie?
6 So as a result the program still
7 stayed separate and tournament play never evolved, and
8 there was some tournament action between YMCA and PSA,
9 but nothing to the magnitude that was occurring in
10 North Texas corridor.
11 In the late '70s, I became affiliated
12 at the competitive level of soccer since my son was
13 playing, and became president of the Plano Soccer
14 Club, which is the oldest soccer club in the state of
15 Texas, one through the North Texas Soccer
16 Association. I was then approached by the Plano
17 Sports Authority and asked if I would help them with
18 their soccer program, because it was beginning to fall
19 apart. I told them I would not until I completed my
20 tenure as president of the Plano Soccer Association,
21 which I did in the early '90s.
22 I then came on board, looked over
23 their soccer program, and there were three major
24 deficiencies: One, they did not have player
25 insurance; two, they did not have provisions to train
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1 officials, and three, they didn't have provisions to
2 train coaches, so it was a program that was laboring.
3 After a year involved in reviewing
4 their programs, I met with the Board of Directors for
5 Plano Sports Authority and said that I thought it
6 imperative, if they wanted to continue a soccer
7 program, they seek some sanction on a national basis,
8 and who that would be, or with whom it might be, I
9 have no idea, but with their permission, I would put a
10 task force in place to go out and evaluate what
11 associations were available for us to become part of
12 the board, did that.
13 Q Mr. Filo, at that time, around 19-,
14 the early 1990s, when you were searching for one
15 association, a national association, did you first
16 approach the North Texas State Soccer Association?
17 A What I approached was the Plano Youth
18 Soccer Association, since I had been affiliated with
19 them, because my son came up through their ranks, and
20 asked them what was a possibility of the Plano Sports
21 Authority becoming a part of their association, as far
22 as dual sanctioning goes, and they said that was not
23 an option that was available.
24 At that time, there was a gentleman by
25 the name of Ross Stewart, who was president of the
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1 North Texas State Soccer Association, and also
2 previously the youth commissioner, and I worked
3 closely with Ross on high school programs. So I
4 called Ross, pleaded my case to Ross, and he said that
5 he would contact Plano Youth Soccer, see if there
6 wasn't some common ground that we could come together
7 and get an understanding, because he thought it would
8 be great to include the players in the North Texas
9 package.
10 Ross, after many tries, was successful
11 in getting a meeting, but the results of the meeting
12 was that North Texas and Plano Youth Soccer said that
13 what Plano Sports Authority ought to do is drop their
14 soccer program completely; turn it over to PYSA, as
15 they were referred to by initially, and the kids would
16 be much more happier, and they could satisfy all the
17 needs from a coaching to a refereeing standpoint.
18 At that time, I told them I didn't
19 have that authority to make that decision, but I would
20 take it back to the Plano Sports Authority Board of
21 Directors and tell them what the option was, but I was
22 sure they wouldn't drop a viable soccer program. I
23 did that.
24 In the interim, my task force had
25 sought out SAY and AYSO, and we actively went into
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1 interviewing and soliciting information for both of
2 those associations and determined that AYSO had the
3 closest philosophies and concepts for soccer that we
4 were currently employing at Plano Sports Authority,
5 and we opted to sanction through them, to gain
6 insurance, basically in training and education for our
7 coaches and referees and the ability to participate in
8 tournaments.
9 Q Through getting the insurance?
10 A Getting the insurance.
11 Q And at that time, did anyone from PYSA
12 say anything to you about your, about AYSO's viability
13 in the North Texas region?
14 A Ross Stewart was very familiar with
15 AYSO and said they were an excellent organization, and
16 offered some great training aids. He was sorry that
17 there wasn't a mechanism to work out a dual
18 sanctioning of such with North Texas, but at that
19 time, as Deputy Youth Commissioner Mr. David
20 Messersmith, who sat in on our initial meeting,
21 indicated to me, that as long as he was involved in
22 the North Texas program, the AYSO team would never
23 participate in the North Texas tournament.
24 Q What is Mr. Messersmith's position
25 now?
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1 A He is currently president of the North
2 Texas State Soccer Association.
3 Q Did Mr. Messersmith make this
4 statement in front of anyone?
5 A Made it in front of Mr. Stewart, and
6 PYSA Executive Board that we were meeting with trying
7 to get dual sanction.
8 Q And what happened after that in terms
9 of your role in getting AYSO or getting Region 906 off
10 the ground?
11 A Ross asked if we would hold off on
12 actively bringing 906 on line to see if there was some
13 way he could resolve any of the differences. I told
14 him we had made a commitment to our coaches and our
15 players and their families; that we would enhance the
16 soccer program by the fall of '93, and we had
17 committed to AYSO. And in the month of July, we
18 officially were recognized as the pilot region of
19 AYSO, that was July of '93.
20 Q What eventually happened to Region
21 906?
22 A Region 906 was eventually purchased by
23 the Plano Sports Authority for a fairly healthy sum of
24 money.
25 Q How did that occur, do you know?
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1 A What basically happened was the Plano
2 Youth Soccer Program had grown from 650 people, when I
3 became involved with it in the early '90s, to where,
4 in the fall or spring of 1994, getting ready to get
5 into the fall program, we had 2900 kids playing in our
6 soccer program.
7 We had surpassed the PYSA recreational
8 numbers, and there was a major concern on their behalf
9 that there would be some field allocations shifted
10 within the city of Plano, because we were landlocked
11 as far as park facilities, and our soccer complexes
12 were just being utilized at the maximum, and it was
13 going to have a major impact on their competitive
14 programming, if we continued to grow and demand
15 additional fields at the larger sizes.
16 Q So they eliminated the competition by
17 buying it out?
18 A That was my understanding. I was not
19 involved in that.
20 Q And how did you later on get involved
21 again, with AYSO Soccer in Plano?
22 A In March of '94 I approached the city
23 about bringing another soccer group into Plano,
24 because we were looking at a new concept, 4 v 4, we
25 identified it at that time.
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1 Q Could you explain to the panel what a
2 4 v 4 is?
3 A 4 v 4 is a playing concept, where
4 there are four players from each team on the field at
5 a time only and field sizes are reduced, and we take
6 the field size down to 70 feet by 80 feet, instead of
7 playing on fields that are 50 by 80 yards, or 160 by
8 65 yards, whatever it turned out to be. We play
9 reduced games, and we play with mini goals. The goals
10 are only 3 feet high, 5 feet wide. We use no goal
11 keeper, so we keep the stress level off the child.
12 The intent is to make, the program's
13 intent was to develop skill levels for these young men
14 and women and let them develop their self-esteem and
15 interest in soccer.
16 As I said, my child had come through
17 the program and he started playing soccer at age 5 in
18 the city of Plano. He now plays professional for the
19 Dallas Sidekicks. He was fortunate enough to get a
20 college education through soccer, so my exposure of
21 the one playing, I got to meet many coaches, meet many
22 different levels of instructors, and the thing I
23 constantly heard from all these people was the thing
24 that was lacking from the U.S. players base was
25 skills. They knew the tactics, but they didn't have
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1 the skills. When they got to the collegiate level,
2 even at the collegiate levels, some of the players did
3 not possess the skill levels that the coaches thought
4 they should have for that level of play.
5 So, we sought out a small concept
6 program and tried to think that maybe we could develop
7 the skill level at the younger ages, and gradually
8 evolve into a more skillful player who could then move
9 into a full-sided program, and learn the concepts of
10 full-sided play a lot quicker and a lot easier, and
11 having developed skills at that later age.
12 Q And at the time, you started the 4 v 4
13 program, there was no similar program by the NTSSA, or
14 any other program in town?
15 A That's correct. There was a city
16 ordinance in the city of Plano, by council edict, had
17 invoked a policy saying that they would not permit any
18 new sports organizations to be created, because of the
19 limited playing facilities, and the fact that this was
20 compounding, but there was a loophole in it, saying
21 that if the program was new, unique and different, it
22 would be considered.
23 I took the package to the city,
24 presented it to them. They considered it unique, new
25 and unique, and they offered me the option to bring
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1 the program into being as a new and unique different
2 approach to soccer for the city of Plano.
3 Q Mr. Filo, did anyone from the North
4 Texas State Soccer Association try to block the
5 formation on your 4 v 4 separate independent
6 organization?
7 A Yes, what we did in the summer of '95,
8 we run a pilot program using the Community Center
9 Complex Facilities, which were not controlled by the
10 city, so we could play out of season.
11 We piloted the program, set the rules,
12 we did it with 15 teams, some of which were teams for
13 906, some of which were North Texas teams of which my
14 coaching Under-14 boys, games that placed through
15 North Texas. I broke them into three groups, and they
16 came over and played. So I guess I violated a North
17 Texas Rule, unknown to me, but the kids had a lot of
18 fun that summer.
19 We piloted the program, set it up, and
20 as a result we went into the city allocation in the
21 fall with a viable program that had everything we
22 needed to run it, and at that time, the Plano Youth
23 Soccer Organization had advised the city that they
24 were also starting a 4 v 4 program. There was no
25 reason for Region's 1010 existence, because their
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1 program was not unique and different. They had a
2 program on line. The city said it was too late. It
3 had already been approved back in March of that year,
4 and they were going to be allowed to participate in
5 the allocation meeting.
6 Q At the time that you started the 4 v 4
7 program, were you aware of any plans by North Texas to
8 start their own program?
9 A No, I was not.
10 Q To this day, have you ever heard that
11 North Texas had planned to start a 4 v 4 program prior
12 to you trying to organize one under AYSO?
13 A I know there has been talk amongst
14 USYSA about small-sided soccer, reducing the number of
15 players on the field, but the actual 4 v 4 concept was
16 the one developed by Pepsi Cola who came into the area
17 back in the '90s, and put on some tournaments, and
18 then the Dallas Sidekicks ran an annual tournament at
19 a 4 v 4 concept to develop skills, and that's where we
20 picked up the actual philosophy and theory from the
21 Dallas Sidekicks.
22 Q So North Texas decided to implement a
23 4 v 4 program only after learning that youth through
24 AYSO was going to organize room for your own 4 v 4?
25 A I don't think it was North Texas, I
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1 think it was Plano Youth Soccer. North Texas agreed
2 to allow them; in fact, they have a 4 v 4 program
3 running throughout the area now.
4 Q And after you successfully started
5 what became Region 1010 for AYSO, did something occur
6 around the beginning of this year, end of last year,
7 to discourage or in any way impede your efforts to
8 organize and grow your program?
9 A Well, what had basically happened is
10 we launched a program in the fall of '95. We got 127
11 kids involved in the program that registered with
12 AYSO. By the time we ran into the fall of 1996, our
13 program had exceeded 500 players. It had grown that
14 quickly.
15 What had happened is many of the Plano
16 Youth Soccer Association coaches recognized that the
17 kids were developing skills a lot faster. In fact,
18 the story is we had a mother come to us, say that the
19 coach of her daughter's team wanted to know if she was
20 having private lessons for her daughter because her
21 skills had improved so tremendously in such a short
22 period of time. And she said, I was afraid to tell
23 them that she was playing with the AYSO-run 4 v 4, but
24 she said, well, she is having some background in
25 developing her skills. And as a result, she finally
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1 did tell the coach, well, she's playing in a 4 v 4
2 league that's being run here in Plano to the point
3 where he brought his whole team over, split it into
4 two groups, and we worked around his full-sided
5 schedule, the schedules of 4 v 4 games, so the kids
6 could do both and have an enjoyable season.
7 The numbers continued to grow where,
8 to the point where in the fall of this year, a letter
9 was put out to the coaches and the Plano Youth Soccer
10 Association telling them that they could not rule
11 register, and they could not participate in the Plano
12 4 v 4 program because they were not a certified United
13 States Soccer Federation-affiliated member, and it
14 would be violating the USYSA North Texas policies, and
15 they could run the risk of being sanctioned or running
16 out of the North Texas league.
17 So we had about 106 player reduction
18 from returning players from our spring program to our
19 fall program as a result, but we did pick up another
20 250 players, so we still grow with new players coming
21 over.
22 Q Mr. Filo, is this the document to
23 which you are referring which is entitled, Sanctioned
24 Play and Players, attached to a letter to Plano Youth
25 Soccer?
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1 A Yes, it is.
2 Q I will ask that this be introduced as
3 Exhibit 7, I believe it is.
4 (Claimant's Exhibit 7 was marked.)
5 Q Mr. Filo, did any of the parents in
6 the community directly tell you that they had learned
7 about this PYSA policy to sanction players who
8 participated also in the 4 v 4 run by AYSO?
9 A Yes. What had happened was we had a
10 parks and rec meeting where we do our annual
11 allocations, and in the case of the spring program, we
12 go through field allocations in late January for the
13 March window of playing, late February window of
14 playing, and in that session, all the youth groups
15 involved with the programs that will be participating
16 in that spring season, whether it be baseball or
17 soccer, are involved so that fields can be designated
18 for specific uses.
19 The executive director of Plano Youth
20 Sports, Mr. Jim Mills, informed me, in the presence of
21 the parks and rec's people, as well as the YMCA
22 representative, that there could no longer be any
23 interplay between the associations, and that if I had
24 any players playing in my association that were
25 registered through him, I had to identify them,
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1 because they were violating North Texas policy.
2 And I told him I thought that was
3 inaccurate, that I had read a memorandum where
4 interplay was authorized by the United States Soccer
5 Federation, and I asked that he check it out, and he
6 said he wasn't interested in getting involved in
7 politics.
8 All he was saying, if I let kids play
9 in my program, that when North Texas registered, I was
10 going to be jeopardizing their careers in youth
11 soccer. It was after that meeting that I identified
12 the problem to the AYSO headquarters operation, and
13 asked them to get involved in it, and then he took it
14 upon himself to check returning player registrations
15 and start calling kids that had not registered,
16 saying, you have a problem, are you playing with PYSA
17 and with me, and have you been threatened?
18 And in some instances they said yes to
19 the point where I had one parent step forward, and say
20 yes, we pulled our whole team out of your group
21 because we were concerned about the kids' future in
22 soccer, but we have directed a letter to North Texas
23 asking them to tell us what the problems are and how
24 we can get around this, because we think the kids
25 ought to be allowed to do this. He never received a
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1 response on it. I think you have a copy of that
2 document.
3 Q After you learned of this flyer that
4 started out, discouraging parents and players from
5 participating --
6 A And coaches.
7 Q -- and coaches, from participating in
8 an AYSO program, if they also wanted to participate in
9 any North Texas or National State Association program,
10 what did you do? Did you contact AYSO headquarters?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q And after that, it was your
13 understanding that AYSO promptly started a grievance
14 procedure?
15 A Yes, they told me they would cancel
16 with USYSA and take the necessary steps to get
17 corrective information into North Texas and PYSA's
18 hands.
19 Q And you attended the grievance hearing
20 in April of 1997?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 Q And prior to attending that hearing,
23 had anything happened to your son in terms of threats
24 of, with relation to your participation in this
25 grievance proceeding, your son who is a professional
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1 soccer player?
2 A Yes. Frank was drafted in '95, out of
3 the University of Arkansas by the Dallas Sidekicks and
4 he played his rookie season, and then managed to make
5 the team the following season. And I was contacted by
6 some people who were active in North Texas saying they
7 thought it was in my best interest to back out of any
8 problems that were being created with North Texas,
9 because it might have an impact on my son's ability to
10 continue on as a professional player.
11 MR. ALKALAY: Excuse me, Mrs. Baldwin.
12 I have been sitting here trying to be patient with
13 this, and again I have been the one that's made the
14 point that this isn't, the rules of evidence don't
15 apply.
16 This is as rank hearsay as you can
17 get. And it is also prejudicial, because there's no
18 way that any of us can respond to this.
19 This is an ongoing grievance
20 proceeding which AYSO availed itself of, under the
21 U.S. Soccer Federation rules, and what Mr. Levy is
22 doing is attempting to retry, unilaterally, the whole
23 grievance. So that, I mean, I don't know whether
24 Frank Filo is telling the truth or not telling the
25 truth. I'm willing to accept the fact that he's a
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1 truth teller, but this puts us at a tremendous
2 disadvantage. It is rank hearsay that is impossible
3 to test the veracity of.
4 MS. BALDWIN: I had just asked my
5 colleague why you weren't objecting, since I am only
6 chairing this, and I am not an attorney, I said to
7 him, this seems to be hearsay, why isn't Peter
8 objecting?
9 So...
10 MR. ALKALAY: I have become just a
11 little gun-shy.
12 MS. BALDWIN: I think it's up to you to
13 object, and I would certainly entertain such, because,
14 I happen to concur in this instance.
15 MR. ALKALAY: Well, thank you. I mean,
16 I do object. I didn't want to create any
17 interference, but I think this really, really goes way
18 beyond what ought to be allowed.
19 MS. BALDWIN: Let's just move on and
20 try to stay away from hearsay.
21 A Sure.
22 MR. ROWAN: Rank hearsay.
23 A Whatever.
24 MR. LEVY: And we'll categorize your
25 hearsay as non-rank hearsay.
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1 MR. ALKALAY: Our hearsay is a lot --
2 MR. MONACO: Until you object, then it
3 becomes rank.
4 MR. GREGORY: Thank you.
5 MR. LEVY: I have nothing further right
6 now for Mr. Filo. I will reserve the right to
7 redirect.
8 MS. BALDWIN: Well, let's see.
9 MR. ALKALAY: Just a couple of
10 questions, Mr. Filo.
11 MS. BALDWIN: Quick.
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. ALKALAY:
14 Q I think you testified that you are
15 involved in the ongoing grievance proceeding?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Did you testify in that proceeding?
18 A I was asked some questions. I don't
19 consider it testifying. The grievance committee
20 hearing did not go as I had anticipated it to go.
21 Q Did you participate in the hearing?
22 A I was there.
23 Q And did you have an opportunity to
24 say, to respond to questions?
25 A There weren't any questions asked, but
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1 I gave input.
2 Q Well, was Mr. Levy there?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And was Mr. Levy acting as counsel for
5 your organization?
6 A Yes, he was.
7 Q By the way who paid Mr. Levy?
8 A I haven't the faintest idea.
9 Q Was it the national AYSO office?
10 A That, I wouldn't know.
11 Q But you didn't?
12 A I did not.
13 Q And your local organization didn't
14 pay?
15 A That's correct. We're not large
16 enough to have the resources to do that.
17 Q So this was undertaken by the national
18 AYSO office?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Were you aware, by the way, at the
21 time of this proceeding that there was an Olympic
22 Committee hearing scheduled?
23 A No, I was not. I had hearsay that
24 there was a grievance pending at the United States
25 Soccer Federation with the ODP group, but I wasn't
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1 involved. In fact, I wasn't asked to come up here,
2 until just a few weeks ago, so that was my first
3 exposure as to what was really going on.
4 Q Are you aware of any pending decision
5 by the panel that heard your grievance?
6 A I can tell you what Mr. Hank desBordes
7 said at the conclusion of the meeting.
8 Q What did he say?
9 A His comments were that prior to
10 leaving Dallas, he and his group would make a final
11 decision, but up until the 24th of the month, which
12 would have been April, he was going to allow the two
13 governing bodies, namely AYSO and USYSA, with North
14 Texas involved, to discuss further the information
15 that was discussed to see if there wouldn't be a
16 common ground come to, and if not, the panel would
17 have made its decision, and they would put that
18 decision in writing and issue it at that point in
19 time.
20 What he did do was caution Mr. Levy
21 that their decision would be a decision that would not
22 only have impact on the programs in Plano and North
23 Texas, but it would have impact on the United States
24 Soccer programs throughout the country. So he wanted
25 to make sure that AYSO National was aware of that,
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1 since Mr. Levy was representing them, and there was
2 not a representative of AYSO National there, and he
3 wanted also the United States or USYSA, Virgil, to be
4 aware of that, and he also wanted North Texas to be
5 aware of that.
6 At that point, they excused
7 themselves, and said if by the 24th of the month, we
8 have not received written correspondence from both of
9 you signed by all parties involved, then, we will take
10 the necessary steps to put our decision in writing. I
11 haven't seen anything.
12 MR. ALKALAY: Okay. Thanks.
13 A Thank you.
14 MS. BALDWIN: Redirect.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. LEVY:
17 Q I just have one other question.
18 After the offending flyer was sent out
19 and AYSO agreed to institute a grievance proceeding,
20 are you aware of any corrective action that Plano
21 Youth Soccer took?
22 A Yes. For the first time in the
23 history of the association, they issued a newsletter
24 to all their players, their player base, and in the
25 newsletter themselves, they captioned a small block,
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1 which supposedly was a statement, in fact, that they
2 were in error in making the statement that cross
3 interplay could and would not be tolerated by the
4 North Texas Youth Soccer Association.
5 Q And is this the corrective statement
6 that was issued which reads --
7 A Yes, it is.
8 Q -- and I will pass out copies to the
9 panel.
10 (Claimant's Exhibit 8 was marked.)
11 Q The box that reads, "In coaches packet
12 sent prior to the season, there was an error in
13 reference to sanctioned play. It referred to teams
14 that must be affiliated with NTSSA and USSF. It
15 should have only stated NTSSA. It did not change the
16 meaning, but did state USSF in error."
17 Is that the corrected statement?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q Did you have an understanding as to
20 what this meant?
21 A No. In fact, I got calls from the
22 parents that were involved saying is this what we're
23 supposed to take to mean as the official correction by
24 PYSA that they violated policy, and that our kids can
25 play with you? And I said you're going to have to ask
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1 them that, because I don't understand what it says.
2 Q And at the time that the corrective
3 statement was issued, did that have, was that too late
4 to have any impact on the registration for the spring
5 of 1997?
6 A Yes, our registrations had already
7 closed down.
8 MR. LEVY: I have no further questions.
9 MS. BALDWIN: Panel, do you have any
10 questions? Perry?
11 Clarifying questions?
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. TOLES:
14 Q North Texas State Soccer Association,
15 that is the National State Association in North Texas?
16 A That's correct. That would go through
17 USYSA.
18 Q That would go through USYSA?
19 A Correct.
20 Q The Plano Youth Soccer?
21 A Yes, registered players through North
22 Texas, who then in turn pays a fee to USYSA for
23 registering under the USYSA banner.
24 Q They are an arm or they are affiliated
25 with USYSA?
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1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And then there was another, Plano
3 Sports Authority?
4 A Plano Sports Authority.
5 Q Which is just --
6 A They were an independent, non-
7 sanctioned, correct, up until the affiliation with
8 AYSO.
9 MR. TOLES: Okay.
10 MS. BALDWIN: Anything else?
11 MR. ALKALAY: Can I just ask one
12 quick -- were these exhibits presented to the
13 grievance panel?
14 A Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Sure were. Mr.
15 Hank desBordes has them.
16 MS. BALDWIN: Five minutes. Let's take
17 a little five-minute stretch break. And then
18 continue.
19 I would really like, in order to get
20 through as much of this as we can to continue, if you
21 all can stand it for another hour, after we come back,
22 and then instead of starting at 9:30, 8:00 tomorrow
23 morning, I would very much like to start at 8, unless
24 there's an objection.
25 MR. ALKALAY: There's an objection,
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1 but... I don't think it's going to work much.
2 MR. GREGORY: It may help, I will
3 reserve my decision until after the break, but I think
4 we are just about done with our case in chief, and so,
5 if you want to continue for another hour this evening,
6 we would welcome that opportunity, and turn the matter
7 over to the USSF to respond.
8 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. Thank you.
9 (Brief recess from 4:45-4:50 p.m.)
10 MS. BALDWIN: Mr. Gregory has told me
11 that he is through.
12 MR. GREGORY: That's correct indeed,
13 and we will reserve opportunity for rebuttal and
14 cross-examination rebuttal and summation.
15 MR. ALKALAY: Okay. Thank you. Hank,
16 if you wouldn't mind taking the hot seat.
17 HANK STEINBRECHER,
18 the witness herein, having been first duly sworn to
19 state the whole truth, testified on his oath as
20 follows:
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. ALKALAY:
23 Q Hank, why don't you start off by
24 giving the panel a little bit of your background in
25 soccer, and a little bit of your career and how you
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1 came to be Secretary General/Executive Director of the
2 U.S. Soccer Federation?
3 A I guess one could say I was reared in
4 the sport. I began playing when I was five years old
5 in youth leagues in Brooklyn, New York and American
6 soccer leagues. As a young player, I was fortunate to
7 play on some very good teams and win the national
8 junior cup at the time. I was offered a scholarship
9 to go to college. Was fortunate to play on a very
10 good team and won the national championship in
11 college, so as a player, achieved some high
12 recognition.
13 At that juncture, however, there were
14 no professional leagues, so those of us who were part
15 of, part and parcel of the soccer environment had few
16 options to continue.
17 I chose to stay with the sport, and
18 began a coaching career over a number of years, I
19 coached at three institutes, Warren Wilson College in
20 North Carolina, Appalachia State University in North
21 Carolina, and Boston University. I achieved the rank
22 of United States Soccer Federation to be a licensed
23 coach, which was the highest certification one could
24 get in coaching. I was also active as the president
25 of the referee association in the state of North
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1 Carolina before moving to Boston.
2 In 1984, I took a sabbatical leave
3 from my duties at Boston University and directed the
4 Olympic venue in the 1984 Olympiad that was held at
5 Harvard.
6 After that experience, I determined
7 that I needed to broaden my life. I went to work for
8 the Quaker Oats Company as the director of sports
9 marketing for Gatorade. In 1990, I was asked to
10 reenter the ranks of soccer and come to the Federation
11 to head up the Federation's attempt to host the World
12 Cup.
13 Q And how long have you been the
14 Secretary General and Executive Director in the Soccer
15 Federation?
16 A Since November 5th, 1990.
17 Q I'm going to place before you, Hank,
18 the exhibit book with the blue cover sheet, which all
19 the panel members have. And I will be referring to
20 that from time to time.
21 Now, as we had discussed, Hank, you
22 had indicated an interest in making a preliminary
23 statement?
24 A Yeah, if I can.
25 Q So please go ahead.
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1 A I know that many of the other
2 panelists or witnesses, I guess this is a witness
3 stand, have been able to say a few things, and I
4 wanted to take an opportunity to say just a few things
5 as well. And I guess the first thing that I wanted to
6 say is how painful it was for me to sit over here
7 today and listen to what's been going on and painful
8 for a number of reasons.
9 First and foremost is that I consider
10 Burton and Don not only good colleagues but good
11 friends. We have worked together, talked to each over
12 over the years, many, many times in the attempt to
13 develop the sport of soccer.
14 I have also listened how the United
15 States Soccer Federation has not fulfilled its
16 mission; that we've not developed the sport; that we
17 have not done what we should have done; that we had,
18 in fact, a chilling effect on the development of the
19 game of soccer in the United States; that we're not an
20 inclusive organization; that we selectively
21 discriminate against certain members of our
22 organization.
23 And to me, I have to tell you those
24 are fairly painful accusations, but I understand that
25 we're all grown-up people, and I understand it goes
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1 part and parcel with the territory that sometimes in a
2 national governing body, these disputes occur.
3 While they occur, they are no less
4 painful of when one is as committed, not only in terms
5 of my involvement with the Federation, but in my
6 involvement for the sport. It is painful to listen
7 to.
8 And I think that we've heard a great
9 deal of testimony, but I think, I emphatically believe
10 that I stand before you today, or sit here before you
11 today, telling you that I am proud of what our
12 Federation has accomplished; that I'm proud of the
13 amount of growth and development that this game has
14 had over the last eight years; that I'm proud of
15 winning gold medals, and I'm proud of our incredible
16 growth pattern in the sport of this country. I'm
17 proud of what we've done, and I'm proud we're an
18 inclusive organization, not an exclusive organization,
19 and I don't believe that we have selectively
20 discriminated against anyone, because certainly, I
21 would speak against that.
22 I come before you today pretty proud
23 where we are and where we have come from. I would
24 like to have the opportunity, and perhaps, with
25 Peter's cross or direct, whatever it's called, I'm not
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1 a lawyer, to tell you who we were, who we are, and
2 more importantly where we're going.
3 Q Well, Hank, it's suggested that I ask
4 you that question. Why don't you explain to the
5 panel, who we were, who we are, and where we're going,
6 and in the course of that, you may want to refer, and
7 I would ask the panelists to do that as well, to what
8 is Exhibit 9 of the exhibit book, which I suspect --
9 and Hank, you have that in front of you, too -- when
10 you get to the point of where we're going, you may
11 want to use that as a reference point.
12 And I would ask that when you do get
13 to that, Hank, you sort of take the panel through each
14 of the pages, but first just give a description of
15 your views of where this Federation was, where it is
16 today, and what your expectations and hopes and
17 objectives are as far as the future is concerned?
18 A In coming onto the United States
19 Soccer Federation in 1990, what I found was an
20 organization that was comprised of very, very
21 well-intentioned individuals that had an organization
22 that financially had a difficult time supporting
23 itself. It had a difficult time in raising monies and
24 in developing an infrastructure in the sport that
25 could support the development of the sport into the
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1 future.
2 Financially, if you are not making
3 money, it's very, very difficult to reinvest that
4 money into your staff and into programs. So, we went
5 on a very aggressive campaign of marketing our
6 properties and generating the necessary funds to help
7 develop the sport and build an infrastructure at the
8 United States Soccer Federation that could support the
9 type of programs that we envisioned for the future.
10 It became very, very clear to me,
11 coming on board, that the organization lacked a vision
12 of where it wanted to be in 1990. We were, I guess,
13 the right word was we were fairly much of a rudderless
14 ship. We were putting on programs, but there was no
15 clear direction, no guiding star, no one saying this
16 is where we have to go.
17 And I will concur with my friend Don
18 West, that Don and I worked very, very diligently on
19 putting together a strategic summit, which is nothing
20 unusual in terms of business to have strategic
21 planning sessions, to have a strategic summit for the
22 sport of soccer that was inclusive of everyone who was
23 a caretaker within the sport.
24 I had a considerable amount of
25 political pressure from what was, I guess, could be
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1 referred to as the old guard ethnocentric soccer
2 community that felt I was a young whippersnapper
3 trying to expand our sport, but what was right was to
4 bring people in who had a stake in the game that may
5 not have actually been part of the Federation.
6 We brought in journalists into this
7 meeting. We brought in sponsors to this meeting. We
8 brought in many of our constituents, coaches, people
9 who have been at one time or another ostracized from
10 the organization, and we met for five days and
11 developed for the game a strategic plan that would
12 take us to where we envisioned we ought to be. Where
13 did we envision ourselves? And we spent a lot of time
14 going through this.
15 And the vision statement that we came
16 out with was that by the year 2005, soccer and all of
17 its forms in America would be a preeminent sport.
18 There was a lot of wordsmithing about that, whether it
19 was the preeminent sport, or a preeminent sport. We
20 all felt it would not be the preeminent sport by
21 2005.
22 We wanted to be characterized, as core
23 values, characterized by excellence in international
24 competition, which meant that we really had to fund
25 our programs going overseas and also fund the type of
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1 protocol necessary to host teams. In spectator and
2 participant appeal -- and I will tell you, right from
3 the beginning of the tenure that I have been here --
4 that I have said all along, it's all about
5 participation, it's all about playing, it's not
6 necessarily about watching. We would rather have 3
7 million people playing our game than have 100 million
8 people watch our game.
9 And lastly is the equality that we
10 believe in gender equity, and I think if, just on the
11 surface, if you look at our sport, you will find that
12 our women have performed extremely well and that they
13 are very well funded. 43 percent of the population of
14 players in the United States today are female.
15 Those were the core values that we
16 went forward with. There were five areas of
17 competencies that we knew we had to achieve, and in
18 somewhat disagreeing with my buddy, Don, I will say
19 that we have, by and large, 95 percent achieved the
20 results of the mission before the year 2005.
21 One area of competence was the
22 development of our national team program. In 1990, we
23 were rated in, about 120 in the nations of the world;
24 today we're rated 14th in the world. That's a lot of
25 development. Our women team has won a world
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1 championship and has won a gold medal. Our
2 subnational teams, our Under-20, Under-18, Under-17
3 teams, have all qualified for FIFA World Championship
4 events. Our U-20s next month are going to Malaysia to
5 play, and our U-17s are going to Egypt to play in
6 world championships.
7 So on an international level on a
8 national team program, we have accomplished where we
9 think we should have been. In marketing capital
10 development, which was another core requirement for
11 success, we had had to generate money. We started out
12 with two sponsors. Today, we have about 24 sponsors.
13 It is the primary source of income for
14 the Federation, although I continue to warn our Board
15 of Directors when you get hooked to sponsorship money
16 and it dries up, programs are very quick to get cut,
17 so we have to build the nest egg, but we have very
18 strong sponsors.
19 One of the goals and perhaps the
20 hardest goal was pro league development, at the time,
21 and certainly when I was a young player, there were no
22 pro leagues affiliated to the United States Soccer
23 Federation. In fact, Burton Haimes, under his
24 leadership, created the standards by which our pro
25 division is now governed. We now have the MLS, which
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1 is a very viable professional league as our Division
2 1. The A league is a Division 2. The USISL is our
3 Division 3. There are over 100 professional teams now
4 playing in the United States on a fairly viable level,
5 so in terms of developing a pro league, we are there.
6 Another area of competence is that we
7 had to be much better to our constituents, that the
8 Federation at the time was viewed as an organization
9 that sat in the back room smoking cigars, spoke with
10 accents and made inane rules.
11 That is not what this organization
12 is. We are a very vibrant, very excited, and yes,
13 indeed very passionate organization. We had to
14 develop better coaching programs, better programs of
15 quality for our referees, better communicational
16 devices for our constituents which were at that time
17 lacking.
18 And our last area that we had to
19 really focus on for core development was governance
20 and administration. We had to make sure that the
21 administration of the United States Soccer Federation,
22 as represented by the secretariat, had enough staffing
23 to be able to execute the programs that were necessary
24 for us to continue our success.
25 We also did, at the time, call for a
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1 constitutional convention. Now, I can't tell you that
2 all things have been accomplished by the year 2005,
3 but we are 95 percent of the way to where we thought
4 we ought to be.
5 Now, Burton will know this well. He
6 and I have talked about it. I have a motto that a
7 tiger who is not on the prowl is a rug, and it's great
8 to say this is what we've done, and this is where
9 we've come from, but it is simply not enough.
10 Where do we want to be in the future?
11 What should our organization be about? And it should
12 be about training high quality national team players
13 for international competition and winning. The way
14 you do that, however, is making investments in the
15 youth players of America.
16 We developed the plan at the
17 Federation under the direction of our president. He
18 came to me the day the World Cup ended and said, I
19 want to win the World Cup in my lifetime. What do I
20 have to do? What do we have to do?
21 I charged the staff and myself, for
22 approximately 18 months to put together an articulated
23 plan, at the same time working on the day-to-day
24 management of our organization, put together a plan,
25 which would take us to winning a World Cup in the year
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1 2010.
2 It's our hope and our goal that by the
3 year 2010, we will win a World Cup. I make the
4 statement, if we could put a man on the moon in this
5 great country, then we can do this.
6 It will take a great deal of
7 investment, a great deal of cooperation.
8 Q Hank, why don't you refer now to
9 Exhibit 9 --
10 A Pete, if I could, I also, I just want
11 to talk for just a second, if I can, about the scope
12 of this business --
13 Q Okay.
14 A -- and the scope of our organization.
15 You have heard statements that the
16 Soccer Industry Council of America says that there are
17 about 16 to 18 million people playing soccer in the
18 United States.
19 I have a dispute with those figures,
20 to be honest with you. The question that is asked on
21 the survey is, have you played soccer once during the
22 year? So, when this survey goes out to a kid in
23 junior high school, and he's played soccer once in
24 gym, he marks a yes.
25 Now, when you look at that, we have
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1 maybe 18 million people playing the game of soccer.
2 To the best of our knowledge, we have
3 about 7 million hard core players who play at least
4 once a week. Now, true, we've captured about 3.8
5 million of those, and we have not captured under our
6 governing body, every single player.
7 A large percent of the Hispanic
8 American community have not, by their choice, directly
9 affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation.
10 We have had numerous campaigns to
11 bring more and more of the Hispanic leagues into our
12 organization and are still working on it. It is a
13 work in progress. And it is all about building trust
14 between our organizations.
15 This organization -- and part of the
16 pain that I have today is that we are an organization
17 of 3.5 plus million people, hundreds of thousands of
18 volunteers, and we're here hearing that our efforts
19 are totally misdirected. And we don't believe that to
20 be true.
21 And I think later on, you will see
22 that even with the rules and the regulations that
23 Larry Monaco will talk about later that our
24 organization is not what we've been accused of being.
25 So if you would like me to go through
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1 some of these things...
2 Q I would ask you to take the panel
3 through Project 2010, just taking them through page by
4 page of the entire exhibit.
5 A The first page you see here is the
6 strategic summit mission statement. It was agreed
7 upon and disseminated throughout the soccer
8 community.
9 The next is what we refer to as
10 Project 2010. Our staff presented this along with the
11 budget, our annual budget, at our last National Board
12 of Directors meeting and it received tremendous
13 acclaim and support by the Board of Directors.
14 Now, one has to ask how are we going
15 to get to 2010? USOC certainly wants us to be a
16 vibrant organization that wins gold medals. How do we
17 plan on doing it?
18 First and foremost, we plan on doing
19 it by taking prudent risk and investing into our
20 organization. We have taken prudent risk coming up to
21 this juncture. An example of that prudent risk is
22 going to our Board of Directors before the women's
23 soccer tournament in Atlanta, the Olympic tournament
24 in Atlanta, and asking our Board of Directors to
25 invest $1.8 million a year of money that was non-
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1 budgeted, to bring our women together in a national
2 camp in residency for two years in preparation for the
3 Olympics. It was an investment. It was an investment
4 of ultimately over $4 million, and it's an investment
5 that paid off, because we won a gold medal.
6 Now, you can't put a tangible amount
7 of how much does each one of these gold medals, are
8 they worth. It's an intangible. But we won that gold
9 medal, which was the first one ever in the sport of
10 soccer. We also feel somewhat responsible, though not
11 solely responsible, for the political push to get
12 women accepted as a full Olympic sport in the game of
13 soccer.
14 So we want to take a prudent risk. We
15 want to invest in ourselves and invest in our
16 infrastructure.
17 And we are going to demand excellence
18 in every area: Excellence on the national teams for
19 our men and our women; excellence in our youth groups,
20 our youth division, our professional leagues, our
21 amateur division; excellence in refereeing -- we will
22 never win a World Cup if our quality of referees is
23 poor. We have to invest very heavily in coaching.
24 And we have to have an aggressive cultural outreach to
25 the Afro American, and the Latino American, Hispanic
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1 American populace. And we have to be much better,
2 much stronger in providing information and services to
3 our constituents.
4 This is the World Cup trophy, so it
5 was nice.
6 At the heart of U.S. Soccer, what do
7 we do at the heart of U.S. Soccer at Chicago? We
8 organize, we administer referee programs, referees,
9 coaches, we have service to players. We're
10 responsible for generation of the revenue to be able
11 to pay our players, to be able to develop programs for
12 our players. We are the governing body of the sport.
13 We are responsible for bringing fans into our game.
14 We do the marketing around it. We're responsible for
15 the television productions of our games and for the
16 audience of those games. We have to increase on every
17 single area.
18 A little bit of a brief historical
19 look. Where were we in 1991? Where are we today? In
20 1991, U.S. National Teams had 13 domestic games,
21 international productions; today, it's over 100.
22 National team days of activity, which is a keystone
23 for the U.S. Olympic Committee. In 1991, we had 243
24 days of activity. Today, it's well over 1,000 days of
25 activity.
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1 U.S. Soccer staffing has gone from 20 in
2 1991, to 68 at the secretariat today. We have
3 registered players that now are over 3.8 million
4 individuals. Our referees are at 85,000 individuals.
5 Participants by the figures you have seen with the
6 sporting goods, 17 million.
7 What's our ultimate goal? We want to
8 win the World Cup. We understand that we have to have
9 great technical support, and the pictures you see here
10 -- Steve Sampson was our national team coach -- we
11 have to have better refereeing, we have to have
12 facilities, and proper administration.
13 If you look at the next chart which is
14 more important. What is it that we need to do today
15 to start preparing to win World Cups in 2010? Plus
16 what are the benchmarks? What should our thresholds
17 of performance be on an annual basis?
18 If you look at this chart, it goes
19 from 1997 today, where we have a total of 16 coaches
20 on full-time staff; 1991, ladies and gentlemen, we had
21 one coach. We have invested in ourselves, we have
22 invested in programming, we have invested in coaching
23 schools.
24 We have now five national
25 coordinators. We have national team coaches. We have
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1 five Under-14 national team coordinators. Why do we
2 have this down there today? 2010, the average age of
3 the World Cup player is 28. If we want to win in
4 2010, we have got to get those 14-year-olds identified
5 today and give them the type of international
6 competition necessary for them to be able to develop.
7 We played our men's team in the
8 Atlanta Olympics, and we played Argentina, and we
9 lost. We scored in the first 30 seconds, but we lost
10 2 to 1, 3 to 1, excuse me. After the game, a fan came
11 up to me, and he said, you know, their college kids
12 are a lot better than our college kids. The reality
13 is in Argentina, there's not one of them that is a
14 college kid. The reality is that absolutely every one
15 of them has been in the pro environment since he's
16 been 12 years old. We're not saying we have to take
17 our kids at 12 years old and put them in our MLS, but
18 we do have to structure high-level competition,
19 international competition, for these kids starting
20 now, and identifying players this year at the U-14
21 level.
22 If you go up this pyramid of time, you
23 will see by the 2010, we anticipate having 71 coaches
24 full time on staff. There's also, what I found in
25 soccer, and it may be true in some of your other
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1 sports, is that I have seen a difference between a
2 coach who is a competitive coach, a coach who is out,
3 paid to win, and a coach who is an instructor; a coach
4 who is primarily a teacher.
5 What we've done at U.S. Soccer is to
6 understand that sometimes the dynamics between those
7 two ingredients in coaching are different, so we have
8 a national team staff coach that is responsible for
9 coaching our national teams, and we also have an
10 instructional staff who coordinate very intimately
11 with our national staff to be able to filter the word
12 down to the grass roots of soccer, what is needed and
13 what is necessary to play at the highest levels.
14 This is this vertical integration that
15 I have talked about in terms of coaching. I know this
16 chart looks like a behemoth, but I'm here to tell you
17 it works.
18 Q Would you just interrupt, going
19 through the project to 2010 and just take the panel
20 through the pyramid from the bottom up, if you would.
21 A Primarily, U.S. Soccer at the
22 grass-root level is made up of club programs, whether
23 it be recreational programs, or whether they be
24 competitive programs. They all have their coaches,
25 and this is real grass-roots coaching. I have also
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1 coached on that level, coached my kids, 10-year-old,
2 and 15-year-old team.
3 From that group of massive amounts of
4 coaches, and the estimates now are that there are
5 125,000 licensed coaches in the United States, about
6 15,000 have what we refer to as advanced licenses, A,
7 B and C licenses; D, E and F are administered by our
8 state associations, National State Associations, and
9 there're about 125,000 of those coaches.
10 This leads into what we refer to as
11 the Olympic development coaches. At each state, each
12 age group, there's a tryout, district tryout which
13 leads to, if you are good, leads to a regional tryout,
14 it leads to hopefully, eventually, national team duty
15 at specific age groups.
16 Excuse the interruption.
17 If you could see, there will be a
18 parallel also here if you split this chart. You have
19 both men and women, so when we were talking about the
20 programs, we have a separate chain for our women and a
21 separate chain of development for our men. So the
22 women have their own infrastructure in terms of
23 selection and training.
24 It goes from the ODP coaches to the
25 regional head coaches, which is another step up the
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1 pyramid, and then to the actual national team
2 coaches. The national team coach for women is a man
3 by the name of Tony DiCicco. He interfaces, in fact,
4 his assistant coach is the head coach of the U-20
5 team. The U-20 team assistant's coach is the head
6 coach of the U-16 team. They interact constantly with
7 this group, who then integrates with this group, and
8 then to this group, so there's a vertical flow both up
9 and down the pyramid.
10 The same thing is true on the men's
11 team. There are more FIFA-sanctioned national,
12 international events for men than there are for
13 women. That's why you see some of the disparity in
14 the age groups.
15 Now, in the sector, you will have the
16 USSF Board of Directors of which I am responsible to.
17 I have hired a general manager of national teams on
18 the administrative side. Now, reporting to him is the
19 director of coaching, a gentleman by the name of Bobby
20 Howe. Both the men's national team coaches and the
21 women's coach have a two-way flow of information here
22 on setting the standards of competition that we want
23 to be executed down to the grass roots. We heard
24 about a 4 v 4 program. This is not new, and it's not
25 something that Pepsi Cola came up with. The women's
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1 side of the game have been playing 4 v 4 since the
2 1970s. It is not a new concept.
3 There was a large push amongst the
4 Federation coaching staff to say 4 v 4 for young kids
5 5 years old to 8 years old is where we ought to be.
6 It is ridiculous to have a kid 5 years old standing in
7 a goal that's 20 yards wide or 24 feet wide and 8 feet
8 high. So our national team coaches all interface
9 here. We have national coordinators to get that
10 message out. It's split into regions of the country.
11 They get the message out on both the competitive and
12 the educational side of our game, and it flows down
13 and up.
14 I don't know if I have explained it
15 thoroughly well, but it's a behemoth. A question?
16 Q Is the referee structure similar to
17 this vertical --
18 A Not quite as where, as developed as
19 this is. We're moving in that direction. To be quite
20 candid, the referees have probably been the area that
21 we've put on the back burner for far too long.
22 Q Now, isn't it also true, Hank, that
23 AYSO has chosen not to be part of this structure; is
24 that right?
25 A That's correct. I believe that's
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1 correct.
2 Q And because they think they provide a
3 better program?
4 A I can't speak whether they do or we
5 believe that our program is the national governing
6 body's program, and we have the experts that put it
7 together. Now, whether they believe theirs is better
8 than ours, only they can answer.
9 Q But as far as you know, they have
10 opted not to be part of this sector in the coaching?
11 A As far as I know.
12 Q Go ahead.
13 A However, they sit on our coaching
14 committee and have a voice that I know is heard on our
15 committee.
16 So if we flip through this pretty
17 quickly, we will see by, in the referees, what we're
18 attempting to do is to also set up a verticalized
19 structure. We have had a difficult experience in that
20 by necessity, we tried to develop our players and give
21 them very high levels of competition. In some
22 regards, we've sent them overseas where the toughest
23 competition in soccer is. We haven't done that with
24 our referees. We started a pro league last year, and
25 what we found was that the level of referees is
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1 nowhere near what we need for the level of the
2 players. So we focused a great deal of our attention,
3 and in fact a great deal of money at the referee
4 program this year, and we will verticalize as well.
5 Our goal is to get a referee to do the
6 final in 2006.
7 But I will tell you that an American
8 referee was voted by FIFA the best referee at this
9 Olympic games, Esse Baharmast.
10 If we are looking at facilities, we
11 have had a great relationship with the U.S. Olympic
12 Committee. We have used Colorado Springs, the ARCO
13 Training Center has been absolutely outstanding for
14 us, but we're also looking to build, independently,
15 some of our own facilities. We would like to have a
16 facility that is available to us by 2001 and be able
17 to put national teams in residence there at any time.
18 Administrative support: We have
19 invested heavily in terms of our programs. We have
20 invested somewhat the ratio of our organization from
21 staff to budget is approximately 17 percent.
22 Most of our funding goes directly to
23 programming. If we're going to win a World Cup, if
24 we're going to grow to the extremes that we're looking
25 to grow to, then we must make investments in our
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1 staffing, in our administrative support.
2 Here is the chart that indicates to
3 you where the Federation ought to be by the year
4 2010.
5 I will tell you that our comparative,
6 we have done a comparative analysis of ourselves, the
7 English, the Germans, the Italians, and the
8 Brazilians. And those organizations in terms of staff
9 are all approximately 150. If you are looking at 2010
10 being the team that is capable of winning a World Cup,
11 we'll be up there at that time.
12 The other key issue that we've talked
13 about a great deal is this policy, well, it is policy,
14 but it's also the philosophy of a vertically
15 integrated message from the national governing body,
16 so we're all speaking in one language, that we have,
17 while there's room for philosophical diversity, when
18 we were training our players for international
19 competition, we have a philosophical convergence on
20 what's necessary, and that message must be given
21 vertically. And it's also important that our national
22 coaches have that information coming from grass roots
23 up to them and then back to the grass roots.
24 The message has to be two-way.
25 So one of the key issues is this
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1 vertical integration which you see here on this
2 chart. That's the vertical integration on the
3 coaches' perspective.
4 The next chart simply points out on an
5 annual basis what team sponsored by the United States
6 Soccer Federation on the men's side, what teams are,
7 must be playing where and when through the year 2010.
8 This tells you when all the
9 competitions are and how we have to prepare our teams
10 for those competitions. And I need to also interject
11 that there is a ton of information back at U.S. Soccer
12 that supports this kind of documentation that we gave
13 to our board.
14 The Under-17, and the under-national
15 team boys, world championships, here's a list here of
16 how they play. If we are going to win in 2010, we
17 must be in the Top 4 in the 2004 Olympiad.
18 This is something that we have to
19 concentrate on in order to do that. We must invest
20 now heavily in our youth development players. We must
21 invest in the U-14s, and we must be able to identify
22 them before and give them solid competition before
23 they go into a world championship at the age 17. So
24 what we're trying to do is push further down the
25 scale, the funding and the support for international
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1 competition.
2 This gives you the time line of those
3 organizations.
4 Our women's team. The reality is that
5 women's soccer in the United States developed before
6 women's soccer did around the rest of the world;
7 therefore, we have a great technical advantage, but
8 our goal is very, very simple, and the goal to the
9 women's team is very simple. They want to win
10 forever. And we're going to do everything that we
11 possibly can to have them win forever.
12 Now, it's hard when you state that, to
13 say, here are the thresholds, we want to finish
14 fourth, we want to finish third, no, the reality is
15 with this program -- and I got into an awful lot of
16 trouble in labor negotiations with our women, because
17 I told them anything less than a gold medal for them
18 is unacceptable. We want them to win a gold medal.
19 We're going to invest into that amount of money
20 necessary to get them a gold medal and give them
21 superior training. Thank God, we were able to do it.
22 It was an overtime game, but we were able to do it.
23 The men's team, the Olympic team, and
24 the World Cup teams, here's the time line of what we
25 believe are the thresholds. If we don't start meeting
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1 these early on, it will sound alarm bells at the
2 secretariat. Where we're saying what are we doing
3 wrong? Where should we be? How do we measure
4 ourselves?
5 Player identification. Some has been
6 said today about Project 40. A comment was made by
7 Burton that Project 40 is philosophically ill-founded
8 because we're taking players away from college.
9 That's not the case. The reality is that the United
10 States Soccer Federation through the Foundation with a
11 grant will offer eligible players college
12 scholarships. What they will give up is their college
13 eligibility.
14 Indeed the Argentine, quote/unquote,
15 college players were better than our college players.
16 Why? Because the NCA restrictions on outside play,
17 our players can only play 20 games a year, whereas the
18 typical Argentinian plays 75 to 80 games a year, in a
19 four-year period of time, competition being the best
20 coach, we are at a total disadvantage.
21 So what we have decided to do is say
22 we will give these individuals now an alternative.
23 You want to go to college, fine, go to college, we
24 will endow the scholarship for you. You get the money
25 to go to college.
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1 The only difference is now you're not
2 playing for your college team, you are playing for
3 us. So we think we've given an added option, and we
4 have given more incentives to some players who really
5 want to play the game at a high level to train at that
6 very high level.
7 MR. GREGORY: If this is going to
8 continue, I think it's time to object that this isn't
9 really addressing the issues raised in the complaint
10 having to do with the membership and the structure of
11 the organization, as it relates to affiliated and
12 other independent organizations.
13 I find Mr. Steinbrecher's account very
14 interesting, but I think it's irrelevant.
15 MR. ALKALAY: Well, if you recall, when
16 Mr. Gregory went through the rule book, he identified
17 virtually every single responsibility of the national
18 governing body and argued that they were all just
19 cavalierly delegated away to National State
20 Associations. But what you are hearing from this
21 witness, granted this is argumentative, but what you
22 are hearing from this witness is oh, no, that's
23 absolutely false. The national governing body is
24 fulfilling those responsibilities, and this is how
25 it's going about doing it. And this is the role that
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1 the Youth Division and the National State Associations
2 play in achieving all these goals.
3 Everything that you see at the base of
4 that pyramid reflects the activities of the Youth
5 Division and the National State Associations. That's
6 what grass roots means.
7 So that we have been portrayed this
8 morning as being an organization that took every
9 single one of the responsibilities delineated by the
10 Amateur Sports Act and gave it away. When, in fact,
11 it is the United States Soccer Federation that is
12 doing it, and that the Youth Division is vertically
13 integrated into that whole program. That's the
14 pipeline that Hank is talking about. That's the
15 movement from the bottom up. It is the Federation
16 organizing an entire integrated program.
17 Of course this is relevant to the
18 presentation, because it is directly contrary to what
19 we heard this morning, and it goes to the issue of
20 improper delegation. This is the Federation. This is
21 how it's chosen to achieve all of these objectives.
22 MS. BALDWIN: I, however, would have to
23 take one exception. I was hoping, and it is
24 interesting, but I was hoping to hear Hank say
25 something more about governance, because dealing with
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1 the structure of coaches, your coaches, how your
2 coaches work, or how your referees work, or even how
3 an athlete climbs up the ladder does not really
4 address some of the things they were talking about
5 this morning, and that is the disjunction that I feel
6 in some of this between the governance and programs
7 that you are trying to put into place.
8 So, in that way, you know, I think,
9 you need to start talking about governance.
10 Q Well, let me just see. We are really
11 pretty close to finishing -- we're close to the end
12 of Exhibit 9, so that I don't expect that it will take
13 much more than a few minutes, and then we will have
14 Hank address that very issue.
15 A There are just -- it's very close --
16 there are a few basic facts that we assumed, some
17 axiomatic beliefs to win a World Cup in 2010, we have
18 to be capable of doing it in 2006. You can read
19 that. It's very simple.
20 The chart on players offered MLS
21 development contracts, this is Project 40, which we've
22 talked about.
23 MS. KELLY: What is MLS?
24 A MLS is the Major League Soccer, and it
25 is the Division 1 Professional League in the United
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1 States. These are the key points of that program.
2 I think in summation of this chart, we
3 are not that rug. We want to be the tiger. We have
4 done everything that we can to fulfill the mission
5 that we have. We have not had a chilling effect on
6 the sport in this country. We have had quite the
7 opposite effect. Everyone's ranks in this sport have
8 grown, and it has grown, I believe, not by accident.
9 It has grown because thousands and thousands, tens of
10 thousands of good people volunteer their good time.
11 It's because the Board of Directors of our
12 organization, by and large, on major issues have all
13 had consensus over the last eight years. That's why
14 we have been able to explode the growth of this sport
15 in this country. Okay. Any other questions?
16 Q Hank, I want you to address two basic
17 issues. One, is the issue of the Soccer Federation's
18 relationship with the Youth Division and the NSAs,
19 keeping in mind the role that the Youth Division and
20 NSAs play in the kinds of activities you have been
21 testifying to, just address the issue, if you would,
22 about the relationship with the Youth Division and the
23 NSAs?
24 A The NSA is the arms and legs of the
25 Federation, when you have an organization of some 3
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1 million people, it's impossible for the Federation
2 secretariat, which is 60 people, to be executing
3 programs. So they are the arms and legs of the
4 policies that are established first by the Board of
5 Directors, which are many times developed by the
6 people that are in the secretariat, whether it be
7 coaching, et cetera, et cetera, and there seems to be
8 the impression that there's no accountability and
9 there's no communication.
10 You know, I need to tell you that when
11 Dr. Bob was the Chairman of the Youth Division, I
12 would be on the phone with him on a weekly basis, more
13 than a weekly basis, many times on a daily basis.
14 With Virgil Lewis now, on the phone with him on a
15 weekly basis. I cannot tell you that I talk to state
16 presidents on a daily basis. Generally, when things
17 go wrong, or when a state president has a complaint,
18 that's when I interface directly with the state
19 president, but they are the arms and legs of this kind
20 of execution of program.
21 Q Now, you were talking before about the
22 grass-roots contribution to the development of the
23 sport in the United States.
24 How would you describe, Hank, the role
25 that the Youth Division plays in achieving or helping
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1 the Soccer Federation achieve these national
2 objectives?
3 A Well, Number 1, is it allows the
4 children to play. And I will also say that AYSO does
5 that in their regard as well. The USYSA is the
6 organizing arm of the registrations of players in the
7 United States that are ultimately accountable to the
8 Federation. They're accountable to us for the
9 programs as well.
10 We were talking earlier today, I don't
11 know if I should bring this up now, but there was a
12 major issue as to a jurisdictional battle as to who do
13 the players belong to? Do the players belong to the
14 state associations? Do they belong to the USYSA? Or
15 do they ultimately belong to the Federation? And this
16 all came about -- you know, sometimes you chase the
17 money and you find out where the real issues are -- it
18 all came about because of marketing, and every state
19 association has a data base, and they can market that
20 data base to some sponsors.
21 Our position was that the, no, as a
22 national governing body, we must know who our members
23 are. We must be able to communicate with them,
24 ultimately communicate with them. When you have over
25 3 million, at a cost of 30 cents to send a postage
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1 stamp out, it gets almost cost prohibitive in that
2 regard, but we maintain that that list also belongs
3 to, the players belong to the Federation.
4 Well, many of the youth organizations
5 said no, the National State Association said no, we're
6 not going to do that. I went before the board, and
7 said to the board, requested to the board that they
8 are not in compliance with the United States Soccer
9 Federation. And that I wanted to begin fining them
10 $10,000 a day until we had compliance. I don't want to
11 do that unilaterally for sure, and that if, at the end
12 of 30 days, they were not in compliance that they
13 would be considered in bad standing with the
14 Federation and could be removed from office.
15 We never had to get to that point. We
16 were able to meet with those people who thought that
17 there was a difference of opinion, but I think the
18 threat of that authority had them cough up their
19 lists, so there's a direct relationship with them.
20 Q Do you, I take it, then, Hank, that
21 you believe that the Soccer Federation does, in fact,
22 have the control and authority to mandate that NSAs
23 perform the function set forth in the bylaws; isn't
24 that correct?
25 A What I believe is that we have the
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1 authority to do that. What I also believe is that not
2 always is that the proper management tool to
3 accomplish your ends. Now, while we reserve that
4 power and authority, I am loath to use it, because in
5 our democracy, anytime that you say we're mandating
6 you to do this, generally, you get the American spirit
7 up, and they say no thank you, we're not doing it, and
8 you've got a fight. I believe we maintain that
9 authority. We maintain that role. What we have been
10 able to do by and large is persuade people by the
11 power of our argument.
12 Q Well, you are familiar with a referee
13 situation in the state of Massachusetts, aren't you?
14 A That's going on today, yes, as we
15 speak.
16 Q Why did you describe that situation
17 and how it relates to the exercise of Federation
18 control?
19 A We have a dispute in Massachusetts
20 between the two national state organizations, the
21 youth and the amateurs, over who shall be in control
22 of the referees in that state. The basis of the
23 dispute is that right now, the amateurs or the adults
24 are the ones that coordinate the refereeing schedule
25 so all the better referees go to the amateurs and not
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1 enough good referees go to the youth.
2 We have tried to resolve that
3 dispute. We have called for meetings with the state
4 presidents, the regional directors, and the chairmen
5 of both divisions to try to get an amicable solution.
6 We felt that we had one, and now we're at the point
7 where we're telling them that if they do not accept
8 what we believe is the right way to go, and if there's
9 no compromise within where we are that the Federation
10 will nationalize that referee program, okay.
11 MR. ALKALAY: Okay. Thank you, Hank.
12 I'm finished with my direct.
13 MR. GREGORY: I will be a while with
14 cross-examination with Mr. Steinbrecher. I'm prepared
15 to get started.
16 MS. BALDWIN: Yeah.
17 MR. GREGORY: But I don't think I'm
18 going to finish in seven minutes.
19 MS. BALDWIN: Approximately, how long?
20 MR. GREGORY: Well, if I try to do it
21 all tonight, it will probably be about two hours, but
22 if I can think about it overnight, I can probably do
23 it in 45 miuntes.
24 A You sly devil.
25 MS. BALDWIN: I mean, you know, you're
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1 all looking a little glassy-eyed as it is now, and if
2 we have to endure two hours of this, I hate to have
3 you start, and stop, and start and I'm sure, the panel
4 will have some questions.
5 Also, since the Secretary General
6 normally is the one that ends up in the biggest hot
7 seat, so, at this point, if there are no objections, I
8 really think we ought to start this in the morning.
9 MR. TOLES: Is there a possibility that
10 we could just break for dinner, come back and work
11 another hour or so after dinner?
12 MR. ALKALAY: I think, Perry, that all
13 of us are pretty tired.
14 MS. BALDWIN: You have your witness
15 list. Approximately, how many of these people are you
16 going to have?
17 MR. ALKALAY: I expect that --
18 MS. BALDWIN: All six?
19 MR. ALKALAY: No. I, some of them will
20 be very short. We expect to call Larry Monaco next on
21 rules. Dr. Bob Contiguglia will follow him. Virgil
22 Lewis will address some of the local issues, and then
23 it sort of remains to be seen whether either Marty or
24 Mike Harrigan will testify.
25 MS. BALDWIN: All right.
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1 MR. ALKALAY: I'm just afraid that
2 everybody is real tired. I know I am.
3 MS. BALDWIN: One of the things I'm
4 looking, as an old teacher, you know, I'm looking out
5 at a group of very glassy-eyed people. And when
6 that's happening, I know that -- and I can't see the
7 eyes of the folks on the panel, but I'm sure they're
8 glassy-eyed too -- and then you just don't get the
9 benefit of, you know, of hearing process that's there
10 to all. Now, if you all think you have the energy to
11 take an hour and a half break for dinner and come
12 back, Perry is younger than most of us.
13 MR. TOLES: I just had a Starbucks
14 coffee.
15 MS. BALDWIN: But I would really rather
16 go a half an hour longer tonight, right now, than come
17 back after dinner myself.
18 MR. GREGORY: One suggestion that might
19 speed things up is I was -- and that would give Mr.
20 Steinbrecher an opportunity to look at this, and tell
21 us if he disagrees tomorrow -- is to put into evidence
22 a copy of the USSF minutes, and a report that
23 identifies, a report that identifies the places in
24 those minutes that address youth soccer, amateur
25 soccer, governance of youth soccer, governance of
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1 amateur soccer, and the USSF Foundation.
2 So, I have a memorandum prepared by
3 Mr. Choi that I would put into evidence, together with
4 the minutes, and then Mr. Steinbrecher would have an
5 opportunity to see it tonight and that would be more
6 efficient than trying to do that clumsily from the
7 witness stand.
8 MS. BALDWIN: I would appreciate it
9 very much if you would do that.
10 MR. GREGORY: Our next Exhibit Number
11 is 9.
12 (Claimant's Exhibits 9 and 10 were
13 marked.)
14 MR. GREGORY: And then our next number
15 is 10, National Board of Directors minutes, starting
16 from 1993, and I will get it in the record in a
17 minute, the ending date.
18 MS. BALDWIN: While he's doing that...
19 MR. ALKALAY: I'm just reacting to the
20 memorandum from Mr. Choi to Fred Gregory, and Albert
21 Rodriguez as constituting evidence. It's not
22 evidence. It's argument. This is sort of the
23 equivalent of a post hearing brief which is a lawyer's
24 reading and interpretation and spin on the evidence.
25 The fact that Mr. Choi thinks it's
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1 safe to say, and just repeat the AYSO argument is not
2 evidence.
3 MR. GREGORY: I will ask to withdraw
4 the general impressions and the overall text, the
5 introductory text and just simply ask for the
6 identification of the parts that reference, so that it
7 will assist Mr. Steinbrecher in determining whether
8 there are others, or whether the ones that Mr. Choi
9 identified don't really apply.
10 MR. ALKALAY: Well, I just object to
11 the editoralizing. The evidence is before you. You
12 have a witness here, and you will hear Hank's
13 testimony about it. I'm just objecting to the fact
14 that you are submitting a lawyer's argument. It's a
15 brief. That's all I'm saying. It's not evidence.
16 MR. ROWAN: Well, maybe the way we can
17 deal with this is withdraw it as an exhibit, give it
18 to Hank, let Hank look at it overnight, look at the
19 evidentiary issues and questions that he would be
20 responding to specific questions for, and that way we
21 won't have this at this point, but, of course, they're
22 always free to provide post briefing regarding the
23 testimony.
24 MR. ALKALAY: I was just going to say,
25 I am anticipating and indeed hoping that we will have
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1 a chance --
2 MR. GREGORY: I don't object to doing
3 it that way, as long as it's a tool that Mr.
4 Steinbrecher could use. I primarily wanted to get it
5 in his hands to be more efficient and maybe my
6 suggestion wasn't the best.
7 A I appreciate that.
8 MS. BALDWIN: I will collect ours.
9 (Exhibit 9 was not tendered.)
10 MR. ROWAN: Not tendered as an exhibit,
11 at this point.
12 MR. LEVY: 9 is not.
13 MR. MONACO: It's 9 you are
14 withdrawing.
15 MR. ROWAN: Well, it's not even
16 tendered.
17 MR. TOLES: So do we change Number 10
18 to 9?
19 MS. BALDWIN: So the minutes become
20 Number 9.
21 MR. GREGORY: The general minutes
22 become Number 9, the Executive Committee minutes then,
23 Number 10.
24 MS. BALDWIN: The reason, Peter, I was
25 trying to determine some kind of time frame for this
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1 is that a couple of the panel members have had
2 delusions that they might be able to leave here late
3 tomorrow afternoon or early evening.
4 MR. ALKALAY: I hope so. I expect Mr.
5 Monaco to be in the half hour range.
6 MR. MONACO: I think it's more like 15
7 minutes.
8 MR. ALKALAY: I expect Larry to be
9 about 45 or 50 minutes. Contiguglia three to four
10 days, I don't know.
11 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. The panel, I'm
12 going to ask how many of you would like to take a
13 dinner break and come back?
14 MR. ALKALAY: I can have a five-minute
15 break and go on for an hour or so.
16 MR. SATROM: If that doesn't break us
17 in the middle of something here.
18 MR. TOLES: What I'm hearing is that
19 counsel for the claimants could use an hour or so to
20 collect his thoughts for cross-examination and also,
21 you have a document to review, and that seems that
22 could be done in an hour or an hour and a half.
23 MR. STEINBRECHER: I'm dyslectic; it
24 might be hard.
25 MR. GREGORY: I think it can be more
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1 efficient.
2 MR. ALKALAY: By the way, Perry, that's
3 not a joke.
4 MR. TOLES: I didn't take it as a joke.
5 MR. ALKALAY: I didn't want you to
6 think it was a flip comment.
7 MS. BALDWIN: Well, I think...
8 MR. ALKALAY: If we start at 8:00 in
9 the morning, which is the plan of the panel, I mean,
10 it seems to me we would get done. What is your, what
11 is your hope in terms of, 3:00 is the first airplane
12 out?
13 MS. BALDWIN: My colleague Cynthia has
14 to return to the East Coast, and her latest plane out
15 of here is at 3, right?
16 MS. KELLY: I leave for the airport at
17 3, which gets me in at midnight. If we don't do it
18 for a couple more hours tonight, he's got five or six
19 witnesses, is that what I heard?
20 MR. ALKALAY: Four.
21 MS. KELLY: Four more.
22 MR. ALKALAY: Virgil, oh, I forgot
23 about Virgil.
24 MS. BALDWIN: You have got about five
25 to six hours of -- and you have two more, you said,
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1 so, that's seven hours, basically that we've --
2 MR. GREGORY: I think I can do Mr.
3 Steinbrecher in less than an hour, if I can stop and
4 hear every thing my colleagues have to tell me before
5 I try and muddle through.
6 MR. ALKALAY: So maybe we should break
7 for dinner and come back.
8 MS. BALDWIN: I suggest we break for
9 dinner now, and it is -- come back at 8:00, and then
10 work from eight until ten.
11 MR. ALKALAY: I'm sorry?
12 MS. BALDWIN: Start at eight tonight,
13 work until ten, and start tomorrow morning at eight.
14 MR. ALKALAY: Okay.
15 MS. BALDWIN: Okay. Then we will be
16 recessed until 8:00.
17 (Recessed from 6:00-8:00 p.m. for the
18 dinner hour.)
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