Dear
Reader,
A friend and
supporter of my ministry received the following response from a friend of his
whom he exposed to my Website. After the arguments against my message, I will
present my rebuttals by way of publishing the e-mails to my friend and
supporter. I am withholding names. My purpose is to present arguments against
my message and then rebuttals that correct those errant arguments. It is
presupposed by the writer that others might have the same missconceptions.
Ron
Hi
Ron,
The following is a discussion between a lady who attends the historic church
I attend and me. I was trying to introduce you to the group with little
success. She did look at your site and that begins the discussion.
I understand that we are all in different places in our walk and she
may never accept you.
I am giving you this because I want your views on her arguments. I had no
answer for her comments.
Hey
.(name
addressed),
Sorry about the delay. Just lotsa stuff to do before winter.
So, here's my litmus test for all these 'prophets'. If they give
me that old siren song about how Philadelphia goes all the way through, I know
there's something wrong.
Why, you might ask? After all, the words .. to make him a pillar in the
temple, etc. all points to those who overcome in the last battle. Yep
but there's a reason for that. You see, the Philadelphian period was so
short (less than 10 years) because in 1852 Sr. White first applied the
Laodicean message to the church (this from 1844). So, chances
were, those who went through the Philadelphian period (like Sr. White and her
contemporaries) also passed into the Laodicean period.
Also, none of these 'prophets' quote the statement below .. plain and simple
...
"The names of the seven churches are symbolic of the church in different
periods of the Christian Era. The number 7 indicates completeness, and is
symbolic of the fact that the messages extend to the end of time, while the
symbols used reveal the condition of the church at different periods in the
history of the word.
AA p. 586"
So, while the messages do extend to the 'end of time,' please note that
twice the statement is used .. ' different periods'. This means
that we had passed the Philadelphian period (when all were united in giving
the message and the Holy Spirit worked through them freely) and slid into the
Laodicean period (when all saw that Christ really wasn't coming for quite
some time and they kicked back and needed 'organization' in order to keep the
wheels rolling.
Fact is, we are living in the Laodicean period of time. And those who
are overcomers in this period of time are not Philadelphians but overcomers
in the Laodicean period of time.
They are 'different periods.'
So, while the man has some things on the ball, I have learned to seriously
question anyone who designates himself as a 'prophet.'
I know, I know ... jaded skeptic. Hey, you're talking to the girl who
had been going to the Silver Lake meetings from their inception to their
demise. I've seen everything from woman haters to Shepherds Rod, to
Koresh to racists in the name of the Lord.
Besides, he doesn't really delve into prophecy (as a prophet should, I
think). I know, I've seen his disclaimer, but every prophet of the
Bible, while he brought out the sins of his people, made at least one
prophecy ... even if its about their captivity.
Do you think the guy is a true prophet?
Ok, here is my thoughts in blue. Hope you get html email.
Hey
.(name addressed),
Sorry about the delay. Just lotsa stuff to do before winter.
So, here's my litmus test for all these 'prophets'. If they give
me that old siren song about how Philadelphia goes all the way through, I know
there's something wrong.
Why, you might ask? After all, the words .. to make him a pillar in the
temple, etc. all points to those who overcome in the last battle.*** Yep but there's a reason for that. You see,
the Philadelphian period was so short (less than 10 years) because in 1852
Sr. White first applied the Laodicean message to the church (this from
1844). So, chances were, those who went through the Philadelphian
period (like Sr. White and her contemporaries) also passed into the Laodicean
period.
I
admit you are well versed in this stuff. I was surprised to see you use the
quote from AA.
Also, none of these 'prophets' quote the statement below .. plain and simple
... Actually
he does quote this ref on the first page of his list. Titled "My most startling
message" he deals with this issue.
Before
getting into that I want to point out something that appears to be important.
It seems that God deals in high degrees of precision. The text I like to use
as an example is 2 Sam. 2:1. David asks God a question and God answers it,
exactly. David realizes that he needs more info so he asks God a second
question which God answers again, exactly.
We discussed inspiration one time there in church. I believe that EGW was a
prophet and wrote "under the influence" and may not even have known
why she constructed sentences as she did; and no one has the right to
interpret her writings except her or another real prophet.
So, getting into this statement.
"The names of the seven churches are symbolic of the church in different
periods of the Christian Era. The number 7 indicates completeness, and is
symbolic of the fact that the messages extend to the end of time, while the
symbols used reveal the condition of the church at different periods in the
history of the word.
AA p. 586"
So, while the messages do extend to the 'end of time,' note that messages is plural; so
what exactly does it mean that the messages extend to the end of time? The
end of time as I understand it is when Jesus comes. If that is so, then there
must be, there has to be some application of each of the seven messages to
our day and to all of the future that is left. please note that twice the statement is used .. '
different periods'. This means that we had passed the
Philadelphian period (when all were united in giving the message and the Holy
Spirit worked through them freely) and slid into the Laodicean period (when
all saw that Christ really wasn't coming for quite some time and they kicked
back and needed 'organization' in order to keep the wheels rolling. I do not fault you for your
understanding here, I just do not think it is complete. It seems to me that
these 'different periods' can be a mix. Not just in the order given. If a
given church can be said to be having a revivial (real) then one of the
'periods' can apply. If it then kicks out the revived and goes back to GC
business as usual, then another 'period' applies.
Fact is, we are living in the Laodicean period of time. And those who
are overcomers in this period of time are not Philadelphians but overcomers
in the Laodicean period of time.
*** Why, you might ask? After all,
the words .. to make him a pillar in the temple, etc. all points to those who
overcome in the last battle. (copy from above) I believe you are correct here that this message does
point to those who overcome in the last battle. If I am correct then the
message could apply to a future end time victorious church 'different
period', if you are entirely correct then what do you do with the fact that
only the 144K enter the special temple (EW) and are pillars?
They are 'different periods.'
So, while the man has some things on the ball, I have learned to seriously
question anyone who designates himself as a 'prophet.'
I know, I know ... jaded skeptic. Hey, you're talking to the girl who
had been going to the Silver
Lake meetings from their inception to their
demise. How long did
those meetings last? I wish I had your experiance about that. I've seen everything from woman
haters to Shepherds Rod, to Koresh to racists in the name of the Lord.
Besides, he doesn't really delve into prophecy Actually there is a prophecy. A small one I think. In
one of his articles he says God showed him that this one certain SDA pastor
who was really opposing Ron would have a diaster and be harmed or judged by
God if he did not stop the opposition. He did not stop and his wife shortly
got cancer and died and the pastor's voice of opposition was silenced. (as a prophet should, I think).
I know, I've seen his disclaimer, but every prophet of the Bible, while he
brought out the sins of his people, made at least one prophecy ... even if
its about their captivity.
Do you think the guy is a true prophet? Great question. I do. Having read most of his material I find
his exact support for the SOP very gratifing. Again it gets into 'degrees of
precision' and an examination of each word, but I find that to be a
good thing. There are some items that could be questioned, but if we were
living in the time of EGW wouldn't we have the same reservations about
her? At some point I must decide a prophets
validity and after that point just accept any 'new light' if it follows the
rules of the bible. So now the ball is in your court. :-)
Hey
(first name),
I've got mud on my face. Yea, I know that 'technically' the
Phiadelphian period began back farther yet the 'brotherly love' aspect
that so characterized that period did not really begin until about 1844 when
the movement really gained momentum. Before that (around 1833), it was
just Wm. Miller going around and giving sermons.
Either way, it was really a short period of time and because they so expected
Him to come and longed to see Him in the clouds, He gave them this promise ..
as written to the Philadelphians.
Signed
Aw, now you've got my attention .....
We
discussed inspiration one time there in church. I believe that EGW was a
prophet and wrote "under the influence" and may not even have known
why she constructed sentences as she did; and no one has the right to
interpret her writings except her or another real prophet.
How can
you write something like that? That no one has the right to interpret
her writings? You must mean something other than what I think you
mean. We all have to read and interpret her writings for
ourselves. THat's why Christ asked the rich man ' how readest
thou?' Aren't we to judge angels? The entire Bible is
prophecy in a sense and we all interpret it our own way. THat's why we
read from our prophet (E. G. White) that it takes as much of the Holy Spirit
to read the writings as it does to write them.
And, by the way, if you had a copy of the original testimonies for the church
(before 'the brethren' got their hands on it to edit it), you would see that
sister White wrote in a much simpler manner than the eloquent sentences of
her books (such as in AA). If you read them side by side (originals and
these that we have), it would be like day and night. This doesn't mean
that all her writings are to be discounted (for Br. White edited some of it),
but they should be weighed against others .. just like we do with the
Scriptures.
Okay .. moving on .... I had written ....
"The names of the seven churches are symbolic of the church in different
periods of the Christian Era. The number 7 indicates completeness, and is
symbolic of the fact that the messages extend to the end of time, while the
symbols used reveal the condition of the church at different periods in the
history of the word.
AA p. 586"
You had added the following (in blue) ....
"So, while the messages do extend to the 'end of time,' note that messages
is plural; so what exactly does it mean that the messages extend to the end
of time? The end of time as I understand it is when Jesus comes. If that is
so, then there must be, there has to be some application of each of the seven
messages to our day and to all of the future that is left.
This is true in the sense that ... we all have some characteristics of the 7
churches. Let's face it .. to some extent, we all have lost our first
love and have, at one time or another in our lives, we have all allowed at
one time (whe we were part of the system) the woman Jezebel to teach and
seduce the Lord's servants, we have all had the name that we lived, but we
were dead. And, yes, these characteristics will continue to the
end of time. BUT .. we are still living in the Laodicean period
of time ... a time when the overwhelming majority are neither cold nor hot,
when the corporation is 'spewed' out and the message goes to individuals ('if
any man ...). We are NOT living in the time when our
attention is called to "he that hath the key of David, he that openeth
and no man shutteth; and shutteth and no man openeth." This was
when Christ closed the door of the first compartment of the heavenly
sanctuary and opened the second compartment where He ministers now. It
also makes reference to the great culling of the 50,000 who left the churches
to swell the cry .. "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation
which shall come upon all the world ..." for as you know,
after the disappointment, only a handfull we 'kept' from the hour of
temptation. The great majority were not 'kept' from that hour, for they
proved to be foolish virgins who did not have the oil to carry them through.
Notice his words .. he had set before them an 'open door' and offered
enticements to those who went through .. pillars in the temple,
etc. But they had not yet gone through that door. It was
the Philadelphian period. BUT, once they understood the disappointment
and the heavenly sanctuary where Christ passed into the Most Holy and shut
the other door, and once Sr. White saw the Most Holy with the 10 comm.,
then, and not before then, could they pass through that door and enter by
faith into the Most Holy Place where Christ, our high priest
ministers.
So, once again, that was that period of time. He didn't come, and
it became business as usual. Carpenters picked up their tools, farmers
went back to their plows, etc. Shortly after, (1852), the Laodicean
message was applied and we had entered another period. And
that is where we are now.
So, in summary, while it's okay to say that the characteristics of the
churches do continue to the end of time, it is not okay to say that
the Philadelphian church (or period) continues to the end of time. It
does not.
Hey, you wanted precision, eh?
I do
not fault you for your understanding here, I just do not think it is
complete. It seems to me that these 'different periods' can be a mix. Not
just in the order given. If a given church can be said to be having a
revivial (real) then one of the 'periods' can apply. If it then kicks out the
revived and goes back to GC business as usual, then another 'period' applies.
Aw c'mon .. be real .. which given church is having a 'real'
revival in our time, eh? And the words 'periods of time' do not apply
to an organization (for the Laodicean message applies to all SDA's in all 3
organized churches), but to a (duh) period of time ... the time in which you
and I live .. and see the characteristics of the Laodiceans all around us
(and in us?).
*** Why, you might
ask? After all, the words .. to make him a pillar in the temple, etc.
all points to those who overcome in the last battle. (copy from above) I believe you are
correct here that this message does point to those who overcome in the last
battle. If I am correct then the message could apply to a future end time
victorious church 'different period', if you are entirely correct then what
do you do with the fact that only the 144K enter the special temple (EW) and
are pillars?
Ah, yes ... I though I had made it clear earlier but I'll
reiterate .. Christ promised a reward to those who passed through the door He
had opened .. they would be pillars in the temple (yes, applicable to the
144,000), name of the Father and new Jerusalem .. all applicable to
them. Note EW p. 15, "The 144,000 were all sealed and
perfectly united. On their foreheads was written God, New Jerusalem,
and a glorious star containing Jesus' new name." Now notice that
this is after the partial resurrection when they were ' in number'.
But those Philadelphians did not then go through that door. They did
not understand yet that Christ would not physically come, but only pass from the
Holy into the Most Holy of the heavenly sanctuary. ... they had
not yet gone through the door. It was a promise to those who did go
through. Notice to the overcomers of Laodicea .. they would
"sit with me on my throne' .. again, in the temple and ruling as
kings and priests (both Christ's duties as well). Still, this
reward applied to Philadelphians who went through the open door and entered
the Most Holy by faith (accepted the sanctuary teaching and Sabbath) and went
on to become overcomers in the Laodicean period of time, when the 3rd angel's
message began to be preached. Now to prove this , note the wording of
the 3rd angels' message ... after the warning not to worship the beast or his
image, we read, " here is the patience of the saints and here are they
that keep the commandments of God and faith of Jesus". Sr.
White, our prophet, wrote that when the angel spoke those words, he was
pointing to the sanctuary. So, that is what characterized Laodiceans ..
they had gone through into the Most Holy. Now note the greatly
underestimated final words .. "blessed are those who die in the Lord
from henceforth." Why is a blessing pronounced on
those who died when the 3rd angel's message began? Why is not the
Philadelphian period mentioned here? WHy isn't there a blessing on
those living in that period? The answer is quite simple ... those who
were overcomers Philadelphian period of time passed on into the Laodicean
period and if they were overcomers there as well, they would become one of the
144,000. Note Sr. WHite's words at the partial resurrection,
" the living saints, 144,000 in number ..... Now, note
she mentions the 144,000 before just as we see a parade with some Marines
marching and we say there's the marines. But not until after the
partial resurrection does she write ' in number' for then they are truly all
there.
*******************
Ron see note at end.
*********************
Okay, you can see where I'm headed. I believe the 144,000 began to made
up when they passed through the door and died in the Laodicean period (from
henceforth).
So then, sorry I digressed .. as to your question why the reward of the
144,000 is promised to overcomers of the Philadelphian era .. it was a brief
era and the great majority went on into the Laodicean era and from there, the
144,000 began to be made up.
Yea I know .. I probably could of said it in just a few words ... sorry.
Signed
..
You realize, of course, that the article 'To the Little Flock' is
choppy and parts are missing. I just used it because it clarifies that
then the 144,000 are 'in number.'
However, in order for you to follow the sequence of events better, turn to
page 285 of EW and there the sequence is more detailed. Now, first look
on page 15 and use as a marker, "soon we heard the voice of God like
many waters which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming."
Now, with that in mind, turn to p. 285 - Deliverance of the Saints.
Notice that the death decree had been passed and the righteous are crying out
ot God day and night for deliverance (this is brought out in the previous
chapter). Then the Deliverance chapter begins with the turmoil in the
skies and dark heavy clouds. "The graves were opened and those who
had died in faith under the third angel's message keeping the Sabbath
[remember .. the 3rd angels' message .. 'blessed are those who died in the
Lord from henceforth .. well, these are the ones] came forth from their
dusty beds, glorified, to hear the covenant of peace that God was to make
with those who had kept His law [ when Sr. White at the beginning of the 3rd
angel's message saw the 10 commandments .. then it became a test for God's
people .. those who overcame in this now rise]. "
Now notice, some of them were alive still and facing the death decree, and at
the partial resurrection, all those who died in the faith of the 3rd angels
message (began around 1844, remember?) now rise and meet with the current
generation. Now look at the next paragraph .. "The sky opened ....
And as God spoke the day and the hour of Jesus' coming and ....
"
Okay, now you have come to the marker on p. 15 where we read .. "Soon we
heard the voice of God like many waters which gave us the day and hour of
Jesus' coming." So, right after that, we read of ' the living saints,
144,000 in number ..."
So, now you have a better overview of the events? Now look on p. 16
where Jesus blows his trumpet and the graves of the sleeping saints are
opened .. that is the large number as the sea .. those who had died in faith
before 1844. Notice there also, there were a few who had died in
the Philadelphian period just before the 3rd angel's message started because
the "144,000 shouted, "Alleluiah! as they recognized their friends
who had been torn from them by death.... "
Now you can compare that with p. 186-7 where Christ is coming in the clouds
and there's a little more detail there and on p. 287 we read how Jesus
"called forth the sleeping saints" and how it is a "glorious
meeting!" .....
That gives you a better idea of the 2 resurrections.
Signed
.
so, here's some of our dialogue ...
I do not fault you for your understanding here, I just do
not think it is complete. It seems to me that these 'different periods' can
be a mix. Not just in the order given. If a given church can be said to be
having a revivial (real) then one of the 'periods' can apply. If it then
kicks out the revived and goes back to GC business as usual, then another
'period' applies.
Aw c'mon .. be real .. which given church is having a 'real'
revival in our time, eh? And the words 'periods of time' do not apply
to an organization (for the Laodicean message applies to all SDA's in all 3
organized churches), but to a (duh) period of time ... the time in which you
and I live .. and see the characteristics of the Laodiceans all around us
(and in us?).
Ok, this is
to Q&A the above and below. Answer me
this... First a definition of what a church is: AA p11 faithful souls,
agreed?
Whoa
there, Alice ... you keep going
deeper into the rabbit hole and we haven't even solved the main issues.
But, okay ... I'll follow your lead and dive in.
Now you and I both know that the word 'church' can apply to either the
faithful souls or the organization. Sister White used the word 'church'
in both ways also, by the way. And to prove that you yourself do the
same, I quote your words ...
If a
given church can be said to be having a revivial (real) then one of the
'periods' can apply. If it then kicks out the revived and goes back to GC business
as usual, then another 'period' applies.
I see here that you yourself have used the word 'church' to refer to an
organization since you talk about its 'GC' and about it kicking out the
'revived' (therefore rejecting light and punishing those who accepted
it). Now in this case that you cited above ... there are two 'churches'
.. one consisting of the 'faithful souls' who were revived and kicked out ...
and the other referring to the organization that 'kicked them out' meaning
disfellowshipment and thereby suggesting an hierarchical system, etc.
... all pointing to the organization.
Now, I will ask you a couple of questions in light of the above ... when Saul
(the professed church) persecuted David (the true church), which one was '
the church'?
Okay, and when in the time of the 1st and 2nd angels messages, who was 'the
church' .. was it Sr. White and those who were kicked out for preaching
CHrist's coming? Or was it the Protestant churches who kicked
them out? Gets a little sticky, doesn't it?
Especially if we do as you want to do ... apply any given period to any given
time. That would totally negate Christ's division of the 7 periods of
time and their order, eh? Then you, in fact, are trying to explain
prophecy, eh?
So, let's simplify before the rabbit hole becomes bottomless ....
Look at us today .. there's the organized church and the 'separated brethren'
who were either kicked out or forced to leave. Who is
Laodicean? Both. Why? Because we are living in the
Laodicean period of time. Christ, looking forward to this time, saw
that this spirit would pervade all his people, whether in an
organization or out of it. I had pointed this out before .. that the
message applies to SDA's regardless of their affiliation. You had
brought up the issue what if one organization had a 'revival' and the
'revived' were kicked out by the GC ... etc. ... It doesn't
matter. THe point is that no such thing in our period of time has
happened because (hello) we are all Laodiceans.
And how do I know this? Simple. I look around and I read the
message to the Laodiceans and see that Christ was right about the
characteristics of His people at this time. This refers to His
people in an organization or out of it. So, basically, all your 'what
if's' really just questions the message to the Laodiceans.
Now, if
you keep insisting on the fact that because one or two may feel or display
brotherly love, they have ushered in a Philadelphian period, then you are
wrong. They have not. There are living in the Laodicean
period of time and are not Philadelphians. They may display one small
characteristic of the Philadelhpians (the brotherly love bit), but they have
not had the experience of the Philadelhpians, referring to the open and shut
door, for that time has passed. That is not present truth for us now.
Our present truth at this time is the 4th angel's message (first half of
it). Yes, the sanctuary message still goes on and remains truth,
but our experience is different than those of the Philadelhpian period.
Surely you must see that. It simply doesn't apply to us. We
already believe Christ is in the Most Holy. THat is not our issue.
Okay, I think I've just beat that one to death by now. Further, you
write ...
Now, after the loud cry starts which of the seven
church periods applies?
Ah, there
you go again ... well, let's see ... our forefathers have already
seen the 'open door' set before the Philadelphians and walked through it, so
the Philadelphian doesn't apply, does it????? Also, if you read
the message to the Philadelphians carefully, you will see Christ says, 'thou
hast a little strength ..." Now, those who receive the
HS, will they have 'a little strength"? So, let's see, which of
the 'seven church periods' apply? Well, I'd guess these are they
who have opened the door and He has definitely come in and supped with
them, for they are full of His spirit.
Ah, but
you go on ....
If they
have opened the door and let Christ in, they enter a new period right?
no.
Here is
another thing. As thousands are converted in the loud cry do they pass
through the different periods of experiance?
Not
completelely, but we do read that they will have to learn the first, second,
and third angel's messages. So, let me follow your lead and
complicate things a bit .. well, then they will have the open door placed
before them (sanctuary message) but they will also have opened the door to
where Christ is knocking. So maybe they'll just zoom through the
last two periods? C'mon ... do you see how silly this
is? Oh, and to complicate things further, we read they will learn in a
matter of days what it took years for us to learn ... so they'll REALLY be
zooming, eh? I am saying this not to ridicule, but to follow the
popular train of thought to its inevitable end to show you where it leads ...
What is the purpose of the messages extending to the end of
time? What are we to learn about that? I
don't have the answers. I just believe there is an answer that fits.
And another Q, does it matter which way we believe about
this? Is it enough to "convict" Ron as true or
false?
The
purpose of the messages to the seven churches extending to the end of time is
to portray their spiritual state and call them to higher ground. Also
of interest .. please note that every message is given ' to the angel' of
that church. Sr. White clearly defines this as well .. the 'angel' of
the church is the spiritual teachers of God's people in that period of
time. And it follows that if that is the spiritual state of the
teachers of His people at that time, then that will be the state of God's
people in that time period also. So, you see, it clearly brings out
that the teachers of God's people are Laodicean and they have taught God's
people to be so also.
I really do think that this pervasive belief that we can be living in the
Laodicean period of time yet call ourselves Philadelphians (this belief is
rampant among all SDA's), I think it can be dangerous. Why? Well,
we Laodiceans claim to be rich and increased in goods ... how convenient,
then, to harbor the belief that we are among that chosen few ... the
Philadelphians ... when in fact we are miserable, poor and naked.
Do you see the danger? This belief facilitates us rejecting the
message of the True Witness, who purpose is to convict us of our true state.
And, speaking of 'convict', I am not here to 'convict'
Ron. You brought him to my attention. I didn't read his
entire site. I just stopped at the ' Philadelphia goes through' part
because I had seen enough right there and then, and I wanted to call it to
your attention. I had told you that this litmus test (this teaching so
popular among us Laodiceans, that Philadelphia goes all the way through to
the end, thereby allowing us to bypass the Laodicean message), this test has
failed many a 'prophet' in my estimation. I realize this may
sound very 'cut and dry' to you. But I make no apologies for it.
I've come across too many of such things and have learned to cut to the
chase.
Ron,
This is it mostly. She gets into a 'partial resurection' rather than a
regeneration as you have been shown.
Also how important is this point on the churches?
What should be our focus points?
Thank you,
Signed
Rons
Responses by way of Rebuttal
Hello
..,
I truly have
no desire to enter into argumentation with your friend Art. If she see
no warning message in my offerings, I will not debate her. On the matter
of the seven churches, Ellen White says that Laodicea does not make it
because the Laodicean state represents the foolish virgins.
"The state of the Church represented by the foolish
virgins, is also spoken of as the Laodicean state." E. G. White,
Reveiw and Herald Articles, Vol. 2, 420.
The first church of Philadelphia existed in Christ's day.
All seven churches existed concomittently then. So, obviously, their
messages apply on a continuum basis.
According to Rev. 3:10, Philadelphia is kept from the hour of
temptation,which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon
the earth. Does Philadelphia escape this trial? Is Philadelphia
the 144,000? Is Philadelphia Zion, the bride of Christ? Put
these facts together Art:
- Only 144,000 enter the Temple on Mt. Zion, and Philadelphia
is made
- The 144,000 are tranlsated without seeing death.
- Philadelphians are made pillars IN THE TEMPLE.
- Philadelphians are obviously the 144,000 who are translated
without seeing death.
Not all prophets of Scripture prophesied the future.
However, I rather see myself as a messenger with a warning for God's
people, and that warning message discerns much that has not been seen by even
the leaders of the SDA church. My warning message was shown me by
God. He instructed me to tell all whether they would hear or
forbear. I do that, but will not argue over clear truths. Some will not
discern them or see the beauty and importance of my warning
message. That is sad.
"The prophet [messenger] was thus essentially a spokesman for God, an
interpreter of the divine purposes for man.... The modern concept that a
prophet is essentially one who predicts the future obscures the fact that some
of the greatest prophets of all time had little or nothing to say about
future events. A prophet [messenger] is simply a man bearing a message
from God." Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, 383.
God bless,
Ron
Next e-mail:
..,
In regard to
the following sentence, the 144,000 are translated WITHOUT SEEING DEATH:
"Okay,
you can see where I'm headed. I believe the 144,000 began to made up
when they passed through the door and died in the Laodicean period (from
henceforth)."
"The woman is a
symbol of the church, and the remnant of the church represents the Christians
of the last generation of men, living just prior to the second advent.
The dragon makes war on these for keeping the commandments of God, Sabbath
and all, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ, which, according to the
inspired definition of chap. xix, 10, 'is the spirit of prophecy.' Here,
then, are the causes of the dragon's warfare upon the remnant. They teach the
observance of the ten commandments, and the revival of the gifts, and acknowledge
the gift of prophecy among them. When the Devil got one foot upon the fourth
commandment, and the other upon the gifts planted in the Christian church by
Jesus Christ, then his satanic majesty was filled with revengeful delight.
But when the remnant, whom God designs to fit for translation to Heaven
without seeing death, 'ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and
walk therein,' then the dragon is wroth, and makes war on them.
"The true
spirit of the dragonic host, which is already being somewhat developed, is
vividly described in Isa. xxx, 8-13, as being manifested just prior to the
sudden destruction of those who hate the pure testimony, and love smooth and
deceitful things." E. G. White, Spiritual Gifts, Vol. III, 26, 27.
A decree went forth
to slay the saints, which caused them to cry day and night for deliverance. This was the time of Jacob's trouble.
Then all the saints cried out with anguish of spirit, and were delivered by
the Voice of God. Then the 144,000
triumphed. Their faces were lighted up with the glory of God. Then
I was shown a company who were howling in agony. On their garments was
written in large characters, "thou art weighed in the balance, and found
wanting." I asked who this company were. The angel said, "these are
they who have once kept the Sabbath and have given it up." I heard them
cry with a loud voice--"we have believed in thy coming, and taught it
with energy." And while they were speaking, their eyes would fall upon
their garments and see the writing, and then they would wail aloud. I saw
they had drunk of the deep waters, and fouled the residue with their
feet--trodden the Sabbath underfoot, and that is why they were weighed in the
balance and found wanting. Then my attending angel directed me to the City
again, where I saw four angels winging their way to the gate of the City, and
were just presenting the golden card to the angel at the gate. Then I saw
another angel swiftly flying from the direction of the most excellent glory,
and crying with a loud voice to the other angels, and waving something up and
down in his hand. I asked my attending angel for an explanation of what I
saw. He told me that I could see no more then, but he would shortly show me
what those things that I then saw meant. {RH, August 1, 1849 par. 14}
"Soon we
heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and
11
hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000,
in number, knew and understood the voice, while the
wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spake the time, he
poured on us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with
the glory of God as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai. {ExV 10.1}
The 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New
Jerusalem, and a
glorious Star containing Jesus' new name." E.G. White, Experience
and Views, pp. 10, 11, 12.
Philadelphia was told she would get the
name of God, New Jerusalem, Rev. 3. Philadelphia is not faulted.
Ron
Next e-mail:
Art,
I just read
your post below after sending more answers to your friends responses to my
warning message. I trust you will find thrilling and precise
refutations to her profferings. It is positively amazing how many folk
like her there are who think they are right when they are very wrong.
They have not dug quite deep enough. My appeal to your friend is that
she will study my Website more deeply with an unbiased mind to witness the
proofs that I offer.
We are still
praying for your dear wife Art. I am sorry for her bad experience at
Loma Linda. But the real truth is interesting and exciting! But
more than that, it is so important. It is life saving--eternally life
saving. In that regard it is priceless. True prophets circa A.D.
27-70, gave the same warning to God's first chosen people that I am giving to
His SDA chosen people. In Chapter 1 of The Great Controversy, it
mentions that true prophets warned the people, while false prophets were
hired to tell the people to remain at the Temple. All who heeded the
true prophets were saved from the imminent ruin. But more importantly,
they were saved eternally. What price could one put on such a scenario?
While my
appeal to your friend is a rebuke for her ignorance of the true facts
concerning issues she responds to, my appeal is also a loving and concerned
overture for her to see that she has misread and misinterpreted important
data. That is not indicative of the precision she seems to
cherish. We will be praying for her and that she will humbly see and
admit wherein she has erred.
God bless,
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Abbott
To:
Ron
Beaulieu
Sent:
Sunday, November 20, 2005 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Phiadelphia Church
Next e-mail:
Ron Beaulieu wrote:
Hello
,
I truly have no desire to enter into argumentation with your
friend Art. If she see no warning message in my offerings, I will not
debate her. On the matter of the seven churches, Ellen White says that
Laodicea does not make it because the Laodicean state represents the foolish
virgins.
"The state of
the Church represented by the foolish virgins, is also spoken of as the
Laodicean state." E. G. White, Reveiw and Herald Articles,
Vol. 2, 420.
The first church of
Philadelphia existed in Christ's day. All seven churches existed
concomittently then. So, obviously, their messages apply on a continuum
basis.
According to Rev. 3:10,
Philadelphia is kept from the hour of temptation,which shall come upon all
the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Does Philadelphia
escape this trial? Is Philadelphia the 144,000? Is Philadelphia
Zion, the bride of Christ? Put these facts together Art:
·
Only 144,000 enter the Temple on Mt. Zion, and
Philadelphia is made
·
The 144,000 are tranlsated without seeing death.
·
Philadelphians are made pillars IN THE TEMPLE.
·
Philadelphians are obviously the 144,000 who are
translated without seeing death.
Not all prophets of
Scripture prophesied the future. However, I rather see myself as
a messenger with a warning for God's people, and that warning message
discerns much that has not been seen by even the leaders of the SDA
church. My warning message was shown me by God. He instructed me
to tell all whether they would hear or forbear. I do that, but will not
argue over clear truths. Some will not discern them or see the
beauty and importance of my warning message. That is
sad.
God bless,
Ron
Another e-mail to my friend:
.,
Regarding your friend's assessment of my delving into and
contribution to the better understanding of prophesies of Scripture, first of
all I would advise her of Proverbs 18:13:
Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it
[is] folly and shame unto him.
I don't believe your friend should have judged my teachings by
reading only one document and/or a scanty perusal of a few more of them. My Website will bear out that God has given
me further delineations of at least the following prophesies of Scripture:
Isaiah 37:31, 32.
Isaiah 4:1-4.
Ezekiel chapters 1-22.
Jeremiah 11:9-15.
Daniel 8:5-25.
Daniel 8 as it applies to another literal fulfillment of the
2300 days which does no disparity to the historic version.
Daniel 11:37, 38 and the entire chapter in general.
Daniel 12 as to when Michael stands up and a revelation
concerning the 1290 and 1335 days.
Revelation 3:9, 10.
Revelation 3 and the Laodicean Message.
Revelation 13 especially verses 3-5.
These as well as other applications involving the minor prophets. So it was hasty and inappropriate for her
to say that I do not deal with the prophesies of Scripture. And, by the grace of God and His will, I
have a little time left on this earth in which to be enlightened on other
prophesies of Scripture.
God bless,
Ron
Next e-mail
..,
Just
noticed that I did not deal with the regeneration issues versus a special
resurrection. I do not stress the issue of regeneration but believe it
is clearly portrayed in Revelation 3:10-12.
I presented
proof that the 144,000 are the remnant bride of Christ or Philadelphia.
I gave an Ellen White quote directly linking Revelation 14:4,5, with
Revelation 3:10-12. I have been shown that the 144,000 or
Philadelphia, give the loud cry. The special resurrection, as it is
understood and taught by the church is after the loud cry has finished
and just before Christ comes. Now here are the problematic factors:
- The Message to Philadelphia was also FIRST
given to the literal church in the literal city of Philadelphia, circa
the time of Christ and His disciples. Did it apply to them
also? Of course! So how do they get to be kept through the
time of trouble, and give the loud cry if they are resurrected after the
close of the loud cry?
- In Desire of Ages, p. 179, the disciples are
referred to as the bride of Christ. Are they left out of the
144,000 who give the loud cry because they were born in the wrong
generation? Wilfred Johnson taught that the 144,000 are
regenerated by being born in another body with their mental template
(character) in place. That is how Philadelphians from every age
will be part of the 144,000. They are translated without seeing
death, meaning they will not die during the Great Time of Jacob's
trouble. He taught that the special resurrection was a realization
they will experience of who they really are. The come forth from
the grave (death) of their memory as to who they really are. They
will recognize one another for who they really are. In this way,
Ellen White's food for worms statement is feasible. It is also
feasible that she will be one of the 144,000. I believe she will
be so in the person of another body or regeneration. All
this is not more implausible than the faithful raising from their graves
at the time of Christ's resurrection to go forth giving the gospel to
the then known world.
- Christ has one bride. That bride will be
regenerated from every generation to give the loud cry, much as faithful
ones came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection, and went about
giving the gospel. But I do not stress these facts. There
are much more important issues.
- The greatest evidence of regeneration is the
message to Philadelphia, wherein they are kept through the time of
trouble. They are the counterparts to the disciples
in all generations. They are earthly representatives of the
heavenly church of Hebrews 12:22, 23. They are the leaders of the
church triumphant which exists in every generation to come to the aid of
the church militant if that church will receive their aid.
- If the above is not true, Ellen White would be
a false prophet in saying that some at a meeting in 1856 would be food
for worms, but some would be alive when Jesus comes. Notice:
I was shown the company present at the
Conference. Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the
earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." {1T 131.3}
[SISTER
CLARISSA M. BONFOEY, WHO FELL ASLEEP IN Jesus ONLY THREE DAYS AFTER THIS
VISION WAS GIVEN, WAS PRESENT IN USUAL HEALTH, AND WAS DEEPLY IMPRESSED THAT
SHE WAS ONE WHO WOULD GO INTO THE GRAVE, AND STATED HER CONVICTIONS TO
OTHERS.]
Even had
I not been shown that regeneration is true, I would prefer to
believe the evidence for regeneration rather than concluding that Ellen
White was a false prophet!
Also,
regarding the importance of the messages to the churches, they go a long way
in identifying Bible players (subjects), and should be understood correctly.
Blessings,
Ron
P.S.
Here is a post I once sent to a friend:
Food for worms - Gerald, let me tell you something positively fascinating. In
Revelation 3:10, God tells Philadelphia that He will keep [protect] her from
the hour of temptation that is to come upon ALL the world, to try them that
dwell on the earth. That is obviously the time described in Matthew 24:21,
the greatest time of trouble to ever hit planet earth, or Jacob's great time
of trouble. Now let me ask you a mind expanding question. This was addressed
to literal Philadelphia, circa Christ's day, and to those in succeeding
generations who would constitute Philadelphia, or faithful, without guile,
true Christians of every generation. Now, then, the all illuminating
question: How are all those people "kept" from the time of trouble
if they are not around to be "kept" or protected during that time?
Then in Rev. 3:12, we find that these same people are made pillars in the
temple of God. Ellen White says that only the 144,000 go into the Temple of
God on Mt. Zion, Early Writings, p. 19. She also says that it is the 144,000
who are translated without seeing death and that only they go into the Temple
on Mt. Zion. Now, if you are able to add one and one, you see the picture.
Regeneration is absolutely necessary if Philadelphian's, who get the name New
Jerusalem, verse 12, are to be the 144,000, translated without seeing death
and be made pillars in the Temple on Mt. Zion. So, the Philadelphians go into
the Temple and are made priests--the lesser priests, while Christ is the High
Priest. Remember, it was Philadelphians in the first church of Philadelphia,
to whom this promise was FIRST given. Will they be left out? Will they not be
among the 144,000, so that they will be able to go into the Temple on Mt.
Zion? Lights should be going on like fireworks! Enjoy! I was shown
regeneration in vision BEFORE I understood this Biblical fact. I had to
accept it by faith. You do not. You just have to "come and let us reason
together." Beautiful is it not?! There is much to see that has never
been seen by the surface readers.
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