Saturday, 6 August 2005 - 1:22 PM BST

The words of the wise,

If the Muslims, would love their children, more than hate their enemy's there would be no suicide bombers, also to name the street's and hospitals and over 300 roads in the names of suicide bombers.

What does that tell you?

Saturday, 6 August 2005 - 5:29 PM BST

It tells us that they must be suffering LOADS and it shows us the way that Israel treats them.

Saturday, 6 August 2005 - 5:40 PM BST

That's the fallacy. You've fallen for the trap. You can only imagine that they would kill themselves for the reasons that *you* would do it. Since you are a decent person, you can only imagine doing it if you suffered the most appalling provocation and persecution. Therefore you intuit that they must have suffered it.

You are guilty of projection. You project your values onto others and you end up sympathising with a point of view that doesn't exist.

It does not occur to you that instead of being good people driven by despair that they instead might be evil people driven by hope. Because you have not been raised since day one to believe in a life after death in which you are rewarded for killing non believers.

I suggest that you read Richard Dawkins' essay 'Religion's misguided missiles'. He dislikes George Bush and was fiercly opposed to the Iraq war, so it's not 'neo-con propaganda' by any means.

Read it here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4257777,00.html

DY

Saturday, 6 August 2005 - 11:15 PM BST

Can we get some things straight amongst those who can only comprehend a history that started on the day they were born?

1) Jews did not steal Palestine from anyone. Arabs/Muslims stole Judea from the Jews. Long before there was a Palestine there was a Judea.

2) As Clive James once pointed out, the Arab nations had the oil wealth to keep every single Palestinian in 5 star comfort from 1945 to the present day. Instead they chose to use Palestinians as bargaining counters. Left them in squattor camps as political instruments. How callous of them!

3) There is no such thing as a Palestinian. Or, a Syrian, an Iraqi, a Saudi etc. etc. etc. They are all Arabs and live in Arabia. You cannot tell the difference between a Jordanian, an Egyptian or a Palestinian living in their lands. They are all Arabs.

4) The current crop of Arab nations were, more often than not, created by western countries carving up Arabia for oil prospecting purposes. Western governments put a King against a prince or a prince against an emir and so on. Dividing and conquering. Palestine is a western political invention. As are all the other Arab nations. Kuwait WAS and SHOULD BE a part of Iraq and the two WERE and SHOULD BE a part of Arabia.

5) There have been attempts at recreating a Greater Arabia since WW2 but all have failed because each dictator wants to be supreme ruler and get every piece of the cake. The words piss, up and brewery come to mind when thinking of Arab politicians.

So, stop being used by PC liberals who have other agendas. Wake up to the truth and to the reality. Most of the readers of this site were born after the Arab/Israeli conflicts of the 60s and 70s and have a jaundiced view of the world, perpetuated by anti-semites.

Sunday, 7 August 2005 - 3:06 PM BST

Can't let you get away with all that JayBee.

The thing I find most offensive is this idea of 'first dibs', the idea of ancient 'claim' to lands. It seems to me such a trite and utterly meaningless way of creating division and argument between peoples. Of course I'm sure you agree that the US should be handed back to the natives, Australia to the aborigines.

Is it possible to register deep concern with the tactics of Israel or the Palestinians, without being either an anti-semite or anti-Palestinian? I don't see how polarising the debate does anyone any favours. I also don't see the point in accusing either side of being 'thieves' in such a fashion.

Why try to deny Syrians or Iraqis etc a national identity? Isn't it up to them and not you to decide where and to which set of people they feel they belong?

It's also not important whether a nation is a political invention or not - most are. Indeed modern Israel is in many ways a political invention as well.

I have to say that while there are folk who take your tone and approach to the issue there will be no solution. IMO.

Sunday, 7 August 2005 - 4:18 PM BST

You just don't get it, do you?

You have been programmed to uphold the rights of a non-existant Palestinian people.

Palestine is an invention whether you like it or not. Be it the British Mandate of Palestine after the fall of the Ottoman Empire or Palestina during the Roman invasion of a land populated by people known as Jews.

Your mind goes no further than the 1940s.

These people are Arabs. Full stop. There is plenty of room for Arabs in this world. Is it asking too much for a little space for Jews too?

You have your agenda and you made sure you stuck to it by ignoring over 50% of what I wrote.

Ever heard of Wikipedia? Use it to learn something.

Monday, 8 August 2005 - 12:54 PM BST

"Is it asking too much for a little space for Jews too?"

And what about us catholics? Can we have our own country too? And what of the druids? They're not all going to fit into Stonehene, are they. Or maybe they are.

As far as I'm aware, most Jewish people are descended from an eastern European group (the Khazars) who underwent a mass conversion about 1500 years ago. It's not something you hear that much about because it undermines their historical claims to Israel. Perhaps someone who knows the subject (Allen E perhaps) could offer enlightenment. This isn't a dig by the way, I'm just being inquisitive.

As for shoot to kill. That policy has so far killed one innocent man and helped capture no one. Meanwhile, good old fashioned detective work (following leads, tailing statements, studying the evidence) has captured four suspected bombers. Now which policy seems most efffective?

I saw some crap posted around the time of his death, with people saying that it was his own fault for running away from the police in the current climate. Now, call me a wishly washy liberal if you like, but I'm not 100% connvinced that ignorance of current affairs merits the death penalty.

Finally, back to DY's remarks about being tough on terrorism. I don't have a problem with this at all. In fact, had Bush/Blair et al done this rather than invade Iraq, I suspect we'd all feel a lot safer now.

Monday, 8 August 2005 - 9:09 PM BST

"And what about us catholics? Can we have our own country too?"

Are there no catholic countries? What happened to Vatican City, Italy, Ireland ... Venezuela, Spain etc?

I'm not sure about your fourth paragraph. Shoot-to-kill isn't mean to 'capture' anyone. It's to prevent imminent disaster when the bomber is already armed with his bomb. I don't see the comparison that you're trying to make.

The last paragraph does not really make sense either. Being tough on terrorism isn't mutually exclusive to invading Iraq. The latter was a country that supported terrorism.

But I will address my deeper view about terrorism in a post about what I call "triangulation" some other time.

DY

Monday, 8 August 2005 - 10:52 PM BST

In the 1930s people (albeit a minority at the time) in the UK spoke against the Nazis, ridiculed them even. A form of preparation for war. Girding of the loins.

Today the PC crowd accuse you of being a Nazi if you say anything against anyone.

We are a beaten people in the face of our future enemy.

I live in a Catholic country and very anti-semitic it is too. But, I will stand up for the Israeli people in the face of institutionalised anti-semitism from whichever direction. Be it the christian right or socialist left.

It is so easy to pontificate in the comfort of a middleclass suburb in a land whose borders have not changed for hundreds of years.

Tuesday, 9 August 2005 - 2:57 AM BST

David Young, you said that you intend to write about why you are on Israels side. I come from a Catholic background but am not really religious. I am not pro or anti anyone, be it of their religion, race etc. I just wanted to say that I very much look forward to reading it as I do not believe many people write about why they ARE ACTUALLY pro Israel. I personally do not know a great deal about the subject but would appreciate some reading on history and your opinion on the matter. If you could post the article forthwith it would be much obliged.

Tuesday, 9 August 2005 - 11:18 AM BST

Don't tell me what my agenda is. How and why Palestine may have come into being is largely irrelevant in my opinion - stop dredging up the past and concentrate on a real-world solution. You act as though the mere act of 'agreeing' with your points would stop the violence and the dispute!

Tuesday, 9 August 2005 - 12:48 PM BST

Young is doing requests from Jimmy now, fucking great.

Tuesday, 9 August 2005 - 1:48 PM BST

David, briefly. I was trying – and evidently failing - to highlight the absurdity of any group demanding the ‘right’ to create an autonomous nation based on their religion.

The shoot to kill policy has not prevented any terrorist atrocities. It has however resulted in the death of an innocent person. That’s not a great advert for the policy. If I could be bothered - which I can't - I’d post links detailing its chequered history in Northern Ireland.

As for Iraq sponsoring terrorism, the casus belli for the ‘war on terror’ was 911, which, as we know, was nothing to do with Iraq.

In fact, the consequences of this ill-conceived venture have been precisely the opposite of what its advocates intended. It has, as some predicted, spawned a new generation of terrorists and made the world a more dangerous place.

Jaybee, an anti-semite is:
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

As for the growth of anti-semitism in Europe, I grant you it’s a worrying development. But, discussing the current situation in Israel, does not an anti-semite make.

Tuesday, 9 August 2005 - 2:40 PM BST

Come friendly air liners, fall on us now!

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/09/umanchester.xml

So, Alex wants us to forget the past.

Okay, I forget the 1940s entirely.

Israel exists and always shall.