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Sleepless in Fulham: Rambling and gambling by David Young
Wednesday, 21 December 2005
Israel makes a mistake.
Topic: Politics
As many of you know, I'm mostly on the Israeli side when it comes to discussing the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I don't intend to elaborate for now on why this is. Instead I want to talk about a dilemma that it faces and why I think it could be about to make a mistake.

I refer to the announcement that it plans to prevent voting in East Jerusalem during January's Palestinian parliamentary elections.

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=10414

In any normal situation, it would not be controversial to say that a country should never interfere in another country's elections. But in this instance, I can see their concern. Israel is worried that Hamas could achieve power and that does have consequences, because the Hamas charter declares that Israel should not exist. If taken to its logical conclusion, the election of Hamas should surely mean war.

Yet it's not all about war. As Hugh Miles reports in his book 'Al Jazeera' (page 72) "... most Palestinians do not support Hamas because it is violent: they support it because it is kind". And that's part of the problem. The Palestinian Authority is associated with "nepotism, flashiness and hordes of hangers-on" (same source). Hamas's leaders are considered more charitable, just and austere. It's truly tragic to see the more honest party being the more violent one. Imagine if the BNP were known for good works and charitable donations.

Faced with this dilemma, I still think that Israel's best bet is to let events take their course. If Hamas takes power, it will be faced with responsibilities for managing roads, hospitals and schools etc. If they chose to go to war then Israel, then Israel should have no difficulty in pointing out that it has the right to defend itself. But it's also possible that the burden of actual government leads to some moderation.

This point of view might surprise some readers, but it fits with my neo-con views. One of the biggest disasters of the last two decades was the decision to cancel the 1992 Algerian elections. Again the concern was that fundamentalists would take power. For me that isn't a problem, as long as the constitutional arrangements continue to exist by which the people could vote them out of office. Many expressed the view that this would not happen and that there would be 'One Man. One vote. Once'.

But that's being pessimistic and cancelling the election has proved to be the cure that was worse than the disease. Islamic extremism retains its appeal in part because it hasn't been tried (outside Iran and Afghanistan, where it proved massively unpopular after time). Fundamentalists can shout empty slogans like 'Islam in the answer' and never be disputed as long as they are kept out of power. Islamism must be given the chance to fail, democratically.

Thursday, 22 December 2005 - 6:58 PM GMT

Name: David Young

Found a piece about Algeria which said the same sort of thing -

http://wahdah.blogspot.com/2005/12/it-may-take-war.html

Key passage (dialogue between two arabs, one of them Algerian):



"Algeria is not like Iraq anymore and it isn't like Afghanistan. Things are better there now. The girls aren't looking like ghosts all the time and there are music groups singing without fear. Algeria was not defeated Tahar. It's not an Islamic Republic. It doesn't have to be that way."

Tahar sunk into his seat a little bit, probably because he was full. He ordered a Hienikin beer. Would I like one too? No, sorry, I can't drink. "You're such a Taliban, Nouri." We laughed.

"Why isn't Algeria like that?" we started back up.

"Because Algerians know what Islamism is all about. It isn't abstract for them, it's totally concrete. It's misery and violence, and that's all. That's the fact of it on the ground, thirteen years of bearded bullies. Nobody wants to go back to that," I told him.

Thursday, 22 December 2005 - 8:48 PM GMT

Name: roGER
Home Page: http://rogers-rants.blogspot.com/

You may find this amusing David but I was living in France in 1992 when the Algerian government (with full approval and plenty of financial and military backing from France) did indeed prevent the elected party from taking power.

I made exactly the same arguments as you, which were answered with scorn. I remember clearly one man telling me "Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind."

The subsequent civil war provided cruelty in abundence on both sides. I don't recall any kindness.

Friday, 23 December 2005 - 9:05 PM GMT

Name: James Feeny

David, how about the fact that not letting Palestinians vote is morally wrong? Israel are the occupiers of territory. Not letting the Palestinians vote on their own land surely can't help matters. This has got to make you feel a little sick, doesnt it?

My personal views on the middle east is that I do not know. To put it mildly, I dislike Muslim extremists. I also dislike it when I hear of the crimes against humanity that Israel commit. I am for peace and for innocent life.

One thing which I cannot understand is the fact that America preach democracy and help Israel, yet they are letting these attrocities go on. Something is not right there.

Saturday, 24 December 2005 - 6:51 AM GMT

Name: David Young

Of course it's wrong to prevent people voting. I did say that in normal circumstances that would not be controversial. The point is that Hamas's own charter says that Israel must be destroyed. If there were a party in Germany that wanted Britain destroyed you might take an interest in German politics a bit more than you do.

Keep in mind that the occupation took place after Jordan invaded Israel in 1967. It is legally and indeed morally correct to capture land from an enemy who initiates a war against you. If you don't, then you give them a 'heads you win, tails you don't lose' incentive to try again. The part that is illegal is building settlements, not the actual occupation.

In the year 2000, Israel made an offer. The Palestinians were offered over 90 per cent of the West Bank, the eastern part of Jerusalem to be used as the capital of a new state and $30 billion in aid to get them started.

Arafat said no. He did not make a counter-proposal. He went back home and launched a new intifada. He had never intended to agree to any deal, even the most reasonable, as long as it allowed Israel to continue to exist. In order to get public support back on track, he initiated a terrorist war against Israel, knowing that as soon as Israel reacted, he could blame them for stirring up trouble.

Roger Kirkham will tell you that the proposed Palestinian state was non-contiguous (i.e. broken up into bits) and contained some Israeli checkpoints.

I say - so what? When the jews were offered a non-contiguous state in 1947 by the UN, they accepted it. Note also that the USA is non-contiguous, as you can't drive from Alaska to the rest of the US without passing through Canada. Check out Oman and the United Arab Emirates the next time you see a map, there are bits of Oman in the UAE. Also look at Kaliningrad (part of Russia). It's north of Poland and south of Lithuania, cut off from the rest of Russia. Big deal.

In any case, it's an irrelevant issue, as Arafat never made it at the time.

In other words, all of the current problems could have been avoided if

a) The Palestinians had ever demanded their own state during the 19 years from 1948 to 1967 when Jordan controlled the West Bank. Why didn't they, if it was what they really wanted?

b) Jordan hadn't invaded in 1967.

c) Arafat had said yes in 2000. (Some of his own side were amazed when he said no).

In many ways, the clue to the current problem is in the name of the PLO. Note that it's Palestine Liberation Organisation, not Palestinian Liberation Organisation.

It's not about liberating the Palestinian people, it's about liberating Palestine itself (i.e. all of Israel) of Jews! That's apparent when you see the school textbooks that Palestinian children are given. They show Israel and the West Bank as Palestine. Coming back to the example I gave earlier, how would you feel if German children were given Geography books that showed Britain as part of Greater Germany?

I'm not saying that Israel is perfect. Just that I mostly take its side.

DY

Wednesday, 28 December 2005 - 5:39 PM GMT

Name: the cynic

Firstly I don't think this is a valid comparison.I don't think Germany or any of its significant movements has ever eyed up Britain as a desirable territory to conquer..Wheras Israel didnt exist for 1000 years!The arab nationalists are thus merely proposing the status-quo before the 1940's....

Secondly, Hamas as a religous order was actually encouraged to grow by Israel in the early days.Why?.As a bulwark against the secular minded Fatah organisation of Arrafat.Its in the interests of the right in Israel to marginalise moderate palestinian gruoups.Why?Europe and even the Americans would be predesposed to a permanent and fair deal with the Palestinians,especially led by a moderate secular thinking group.With Hamas as the driving force,Bush +co will continue to fund Israel to the hilt and support its more extreme policies.

Wednesday, 28 December 2005 - 9:16 PM GMT

Name: David Young

I don't think Germany or any of its significant movements has ever eyed up Britain as a desirable territory to conquer.

Have you studied much history?

The arab nationalists are thus merely proposing the status-quo before the 1940's.

You mean they want to return the land to Britain?

DY

Thursday, 29 December 2005 - 5:18 PM GMT


What is so significant of a "status quo before the 1940's..."?

Why not the status quo of the 1848, or 237bc or 1969, or more pertinently 2005?

In any event, I see no evidence that the Britsh Empire wishes to administer the region today, so the reversion you suggest is a non-starter.

Friday, 30 December 2005 - 4:09 AM GMT

Name: pilllars of wisdom

The British controlled the region for 20 years,as a result of treaties after the defeat of axis powers in 1919...hardly a significant period.The romans disspersed the jews in 135 ad,from 650ad or so muslim empires mainly ruled or controlled palestine.In 1918 there were about 70 thousand jews in the territory, and maybe 8 times as many arabs.The turks who ran the area before WW1 were thrown out by arabs supervised and helped by british special advisors.Originally the British were in favour of creating a new jewish state-they even offered Uganda.However at the same time they wanted to secure rights and guarentees for the muslims and christians in the region.But the Israelis were impatient with Britain's restrictions on numbers of jews settling in palestine,thus they used terrorist methods to hasten British withdrawal.These terrorists would later become leaders of the new state.

Ironically The new state was recognised by the UN and the Eastern block who correctly forsaw it to be a thorn in the side of the west.At this time The american and especially the british governments were wary of upsetting the arabs for the usual geo-political reasons , thus they provided no help to the new state.
History like politics is rarely black and white.

Friday, 30 December 2005 - 2:05 PM GMT

Name: David Young

This is a good summary:

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/claim_to_palestine.html

Coming back to 'pillars of wisdom':

"In 1918 there were about 70 thousand jews in the territory, and maybe 8 times as many arabs."

Which territory? It's a vital question, as the shape of Israel today is different to the shape that was offered by the UN to which the Israelis agreed. Subsequent to the Israeli declaration of statehood, arab nations invaded and were driven back and Israel took on different borders. It seems only fair that if the Arab side was prepared to accept the verdict of force if they won, they should also accept it if they lost.

I'll leave it to Titmus to respond to some or all of the other points you make.

DY

Saturday, 31 December 2005 - 6:29 PM GMT

Name: PoW

Can't wait for F.Titmus view.
I'm sure its really balanced on this issue...
nearly as considered and unbiased as your's possibly.

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