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Sleepless in Fulham: Rambling and gambling by David Young
Thursday, 30 March 2006
The thrill has gone.
Topic: Poker
Note: If you're not a regular visitor to the Gutshot club or its website, then the following will make little sense to you. Normal service will be resumed tomorrow.

Observant followers of the Gutshot forum will have noticed that I have not posted since the end of February. That was the moment when I realised that the fun had been squeezed out of it, for myself and several friends, by a relentless tide of nastiness from one rather sad individual. Since my withdrawal, others have been on the receiving end of the abuse. Here is a piece of world-beating hypocrisy and stupidity from a March 27th entry concerning my friend Allan Engel:

'Evil Engel thinks he's the Lone Ranger with Willy Purle, Plug and Comic Boy fighting wrong wherever it is typed on a forum. Of course logging in under a false name and abusing Gutshot and Mr Lloyd is all part of noble fight....

Got that? Allan Engel is a Lone Ranger, along with three other people!??! And isn't it awful that he posts under an alias? Who does such a thing?

Matters reached a new low yesterday when this person said this concerning 'Catman':

'Catman tells us this just before a photo of the famed Marbella Fiasco, a delight indeed as he breaks down like a little girl who lost her parents.'

He's talking about the a Channel Four documentary in which Catman did indeed break down ... rather like a grown man who had lost his parents. Both died in the year prior to filming and that was made clear in the programme. His father had in fact committed suicide following the death of Catman's mother. Hardly comic material.

I made Gutshot aware of this and the offending material was removed. But now this troll is claiming that it never happened. Specifically he writes:

I have never made snide remarks about the death of anyones parents on an internet forum. You accuse me of something that has already been sorted out by The Catman and Baby in private.

Judge for yourself. By the way, if anyone is prepared to crawl through the sewer that this person's posting history, let me know if you find a post that contains any poker content at all. There might be one, but I can't think of any from memory. Don't get your hopes up.

And don't expect consistency either. That March 27th entry informs Allan: 'I granted Mr Young a truce a while ago, something it looks like you don't know about, he's free to post without mocking by me. If he does not want to, thanks for the memories.'

Allan was indeed aware of what I had been told. But he correctly surmised that it was not a truce, as the exact wording of the message I got was:

Mr Young I shall leave you alone for a while, enough people take the piss out of you without Baby tearing you a new arsehole every week.

Be lucky


which Allan and I both instantly recognised as what Islamic scholars would call a Hudna. That is to say that it is a truce with a time-limit (note the words 'for a while'). In any case, not long after I received note of the Hudna, this appeared on the forum (Feb 28th)

You know full well why I dislike you, we have done it to death, you treat people(dealers, casino staff, players you don't rate) like shit and you are a hypocrite. I am prepared to draw a line under it, but if you want to continue fine, Baby won't dodge a challenge.

Thanks for saving UK poker.


The above followed a post in which I made it perfectly clear that my attempts to preserve poker in the UK had failed, and that it was TV's Late Night Poker that rescued it from decline. Presented, again, with the declaration that I mistreated casino staff and dealers 'like shit', I gave a list of 8 Gutshot dealers and asked which of them had a problem with me. Given that I always get welcomed by the dealers at the club, I looked forward to finding out. Alas, answer came there none.

I hesitated to write about this sad troll on my website, but eventually I decided that someone had to point out the sad decline of a once-fun forum. New contributors will come and go. But if abuse of the order that I, Catman, Dom Sutton, Engel, Commie Boy, Jamie, Gryko and Roland have been expected to tolerate carries on, then many will wonder why they are providing free content in return for abuse. The troll thinks this is all part of the deal and tells one victim:

You always come back for more Dom, Baby is like the custard slice, you just can't resist.

Some of us are closing the cookie drawer for good.

Friday, 31 March 2006 - 2:07 PM GMT

Name: Cartman

The irony is that some of the posters you mention are amongst the most interesting. Commie Boy can be a bit of a bore, Engel's often needlessly rude, and Roland bangs on too much about Arsenal, but when poker is discussed they generally have interesting things to say. Gryko tried to do something about a hand he'd played in an EPT(?) tourny once, and since then hasn't bothered, due to the abuse I assume. Dom, who graced the old forum with a couple of the funniest posts I've read on tinternet rarely appears. You can be a bit forthright, but your views are generally well thought out and refreshingly different. And yet Gutshot would rather have some poisonous idiot drive people away. That some of the remaining posters think this fool is somehow worthwhile means that they deserve him I suppose. Like the hendon mob before it the forum will continue to diminish in standard and value until it ends up worthless - it's nearly there already.

Friday, 31 March 2006 - 3:12 PM GMT

Name: Catman

David - Thank you indeed, you are an honourable man and will always have my deepest respect.

I cannot go into any deep discussions about Jane, as you know I am a person who deals with things instantly and very directly. I received an immediate apology from Jane, which I accepted. I can absolutely guarantee that I would have met Sweet Jane to discuss this matter in more detail if such an apology had not arrived. In life I have learnt to put things such as this behind me, if I didn't this really would have freaked me out to another level. I cannot say it has not upset me.

Did i do anything to deserve it?
I have played a fair amount of live poker say 10,000 hours in that time I have only been rude to two people.
Your good self when you told me off at a Vic Festival for my constant phone ringing - I stood up and yelled at you like a baby and think we both thoroughly amused all 200 players there. I am sure I apologised but at the end of the day, I think we both found it amusing. Second time to Mark from Luton who spilt a coke on me - ooops another tantrum. But I believe my manner and behaviour at the poker table is above good. So I have never insulted SJ.
I am a student of poker and have had nothing to brag about so it isn't jealousy.


My Posting;
"Two seats up for grabs for El Blondie Master class"

To insult one's family is always a dangerous and threatening move, but to insult one's dead family for me and most is beyond any reason. This person knows me very well and is super observant and knowledgeable of my life>>> so the insult was MEANT.

Listing my apelike hairy back, well there is some hair but I have never known anyone make such a detailed observation-how?

There must be a limit to abuse in life. At the age of 14.5 years I chose to accept abuse and worked as the sole doorman at a nightclub called Countdown - later called Hombre's. At least 2 nights a week my life would be threatened, at least once a week someone would try to damage me either with a fist, a weapon or on one occasion a mini car. Now the point is- this was never personal, it was a job.
I never ever had anger or had thought of any retribution for any occurrence. Never walked away (I may have ran like a little chicken tho) was never worried about death threat to my person.
The point- I was shaken by the power of this comment.

In life there is a level you must never go beyond. If I were not the person I am, I would be deeply worried by the comment made by Jane. Luckily the conversation I had with Jane - has led me to believe I am not dealing with a stalker or a psychopath. I believe Jane did regret what he (I think) had said to me.

I can’t comment on anything else at the moment - I am really very sad. Just sad, I will cry anytime in honour of people I love anywhere any place.


Well David thank you. I owe you one and might well be in a position to repay you soon.

Friday, 31 March 2006 - 4:43 PM GMT

Name: David Young

Thanks to both Catman and Cartman.

It's my birthday today, so I'm not going to dwell on this. It's depressing enough to be another year older!

My policy now is to let the forum bleed to death. As Cartman points out, many of the funniest and most interesting posters have quit before me.

DY

Monday, 3 April 2006 - 8:53 PM BST

Name: Baby Jane

I won, you lost, simple as that. Plenty of things to pick here but I shall only bother with a couple.


I said Evil thinks he's The Lone Ranger, the one with a pal called Tonto. You and the boys complain about being abused by anon posters, that is something Evil has done for ages, even abusing one of your friends, Mr Lloyd's family. You turn a blind eye to this that makes you the hypocrite sweetie.

I never meant to abuse Catman's parents and don't deny I wrote what I wrote. He and you both took it out of context. I barely remember that program let alone the reason for his tears, I can see why my words caused him great offence and we sorted it out off the record. Mistakes happen.


You asked why I disliked you, even though I have told you before I answered, I don't really see how this broke my truce. I even told you that I was prepared to draw a line under it, I guess thats not good enough for you. Yes you gave 8 dealers and asked which ones have a problem with you. I am hardly going to risk their or others to your revenge by telling my sources. Lets just say that over the 6ish years I have known you plenty of casino/club staff and punters have spoken to me about how much they dislike you. The shit you get off any forum you write on should tell you that you are not well liked, hell even Catman lost his rag with you.

"But if abuse of the order that I, Catman, Dom Sutton, Engel, Commie Boy, Jamie, Gryko and Roland have been expected to tolerate carries on, then many will wonder why they are providing free content in return for abuse."

Catman, Fatty, Gryko, Jamie, Roland still post. Commie has fallen off the face of his boring earth and Evil Engel is banned(forgot to mention that didnt you sweetie). Free content? the reason you left the HM forum was that Gutshot paid you. The truth is you will take abuse if the money is right.

No doubt this will be removed but at least you can read my reply to your misquote and take things out of context piece. You are not, as I proved, a very good writer.


Now if you could stop stalking me I would again be prepared to draw a line under it.




xx





Monday, 3 April 2006 - 9:32 PM BST


Baby Jane, on all the forums I have ever read on any subject you are by an unimaginable distance the biggest cunt I have ever encountered. The fact that you see fit to post this childish crap on David Young's blog underlines that fact.

Monday, 3 April 2006 - 10:27 PM BST

Name: David Young

You win the great Gutshot flame war. OK fine. You're anonymous. That's the main reason.

For sure some people may have told you that they don't like me. In case you haven't noticed, bitchyness is widespread in poker. I don't deny that I've been bitchy sometimes. Everyone has had some bad history with someone else at some point or another. I could give you a long list of people I can't stand. But what's the point? There's plenty of people who don't like you. The difference is that you're hiding behind an alias, while I say things with my own name.

I was very short with the dealers at Russell Sq, where I suspect you formed your impressions of me, because the dealers there were amazingly lazy (not even bothering to find out what comp they were supposed to deal before sitting down). Someone had to say what needed to be said. Because the club lost punters that way. It could have taken a much larger market share than it did during the time when the Vic shut for refurbishment. But the poor service drove others away.

I've used my own name in all postings over the years. And while I don't support every cause that Allan Engel has championed over the years, I am certain he's NEVER been as cheap or personal as you. He's also more intelligent and funny than you'll ever be.

Enjoy your victory. The forum is crap now. The standard of post is far below where it was. And you deserve a large part of the blame for that.

DY

ps The reason I quit posting on HM wasn't that Gutshot paid me. That came AFTER I quit. There was a three week gap. The deal with Gutshot was put to me by Derek one day in late 2004. I remember clearly that we were both in the internet room and I'd mentioned to him that I'd stopped posting on ALL sites. He then brought up the idea of paid writing.

Some of the people I mentioned do still post a bit, but two of them have told me that they don't post as much because of you.

Monday, 3 April 2006 - 10:44 PM BST

Name: Baby Jane

"Baby Jane, on all the forums I have ever read on any subject you are by an unimaginable distance the biggest cunt I have ever encountered. The fact that you see fit to post this childish crap on David Young's blog underlines that fact."


Again Mr Youngs anon fans let him down.



The interwebs biggest cunt, has quite a ring to it. I will print up some t-shirts and a legend will be born. Cheers.



xx


Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 12:35 AM BST


"Again Mr Youngs anon fans let him down."

The fact that I think you are a total cunt enables you to pigeon hole me as a David Young fan. Yet more cuntish logic.

"The interwebs biggest cunt, has quite a ring to it. I will print up some t-shirts and a legend will be born."

You have more than earnt it.

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 12:53 AM BST

Name: James Feeny

OK something needs to finally be said.

I look up to David Young. I like the guy and am not posting anonymously. David has always been polite, friendly and respectful whenever I have met him.

The fact of the matter Jane is that anonymous posters, such as you, can never be taken seriously. I do not know why you post and want to remain anonymous but that is up to you. This whole debacle has got out of hand. Anonymous posters like you have destroyed the Gutshot forum. I am extremely close to never posting a single post again unless something is done about the guests. Nowadays the forum is terrible and a lot of the real poker players simply do not enjoy posting there.

It looks to me like you are the one who has issues with Mr Young and you are the one who wants to carry this on. As an adult this seems very sad and immature. Your continuation as a guest is a joke in itself and like I said, you can not be taken seriously. It is sad.

I am getting abuse from guests nowadays on the Gutshot forum. They remain guests because they do not have the guts to put their name to their posts. It makes me think, maybe David and I receive abuse because we do not hide behind a fake name. What we believe in and what we say, we do so under our own name. We do not hide and we state our opinions even if it is contrary to what some people might believe. Therefore there will always be people who agree and disagree with us.

Being an adult, acting in a childish manner and not even having the guts to post under your name will always make the joke be on you.

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 1:03 AM BST

Name: Baby Jane

"The fact that I think you are a total cunt enables you to pigeon hole me as a David Young fan. Yet more cuntish logic."


Sweetie as nobody knows who you are, nobody cares, I was just being nice.




xx

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 1:14 AM BST

Name: Baby Jane

Fair comment Jimmy. Abuse from guests is up to them upstairs, its their forum Gutshot has always allowed guests to post if one of them is abusing you take it up with Derek.

Almost all of what I post is not abuse, and to be honest Jimmy you can abuse people with the best of them. Some people don't like what I write because I make them look silly and pompous, don't be silly and pompous and ole Baby will not come knocking. Poker is not a game for the faint hearted, poker forums should not be a love in either. It always amuses me when people froth at the piss slit, long may they continue.



xx

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 1:26 AM BST


That's fucking hilarious coming from a cunt who goes to such great lengths to hide their identity.

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 1:36 AM BST

Name: David Young

"Some people don't like what I write because I make them look silly and pompous, don't be silly and pompous and ole Baby will not come knocking."

It may not occur to you BJ, but perhaps others don't see you as some sort of campaigner for good causes. Your whole 'career' has been aimed at telling me that you don't see me the way that I see myself. Perhaps it's time to turn the mirror the other way.

I'm not alone in saying that you've ruined a forum that was a source of fun for a lot of people. 'Cartman', Jamie, James Feeny have all said it. Others, like Commie Boy and Dom Sutton, have told me the same privately by e-mail. Quite why Gutshot management have allowed you to do this remains a mystery.

Your most recent posting career is here -

http://www.gutshot.com/forum/search.php?search_author=sweet+jane

Does it really make you proud? Do you have anything to say about poker or the UK poker scene at all? I haven't searched hi and lo but I can't recall anything. In fact apart from your remarks about Allan wearing pullovers a lot and being jewish, there's little to suggest that you have ever even been to Gutshot!

DY

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 2:31 AM BST

Name: Baby Jane

Don't flatter yourself Mr Young, its not all about you, and now you no longer post it will give you time to reflect about your own ways. I'm the first to take the piss out of myself, always have been, even when threatened with rape, death and sexual abuse, great folks on your side.


The people you mention may not like it, plenty do, in FACT the many polls people have put up have proved this. More support me than you, thats life. Indeed I may actually help them as they are all weak players apart from Jimmy.


I go to Gutshot now and then and was part of the collective you did not like before the club was conceived. I don't ever recall making remarks about Evil Engel being Jewish(a prick is a prick) , he does have a shocking dress sense, I guess he spends his money elsewhere.

Its a bit rum for you to say "Do you have anything to say about poker or the UK poker scene at all?" i can't recall many of your posts being about poker. Truth be told its all been said before, I, like you don't coach fish and the modalities are better dealt with by someone from the club.


The thing is Baby is popular, people say my catchphrases, people laugh at me laughing at you and the others. You never get comments apart from Butler, make a post about Baby Jane and watch them bad boys stack up. Gutshot was never the place for you, its about fun, your world is about wages and rent money. If the Vic ever had a forum you'd fit in there.




xx

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 2:34 AM BST

Name: Baby Jane

"That's fucking hilarious coming from a cunt who goes to such great lengths to hide their identity."


Another fan, plenty of you about. Do you know any other swearwords? you seem to be wearing this one out.


xx




Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 2:53 AM BST


"The thing is Baby is popular, people say my catchphrases, people laugh at me laughing at you and the others."

You are a classic case of narcissistic personality disorder.

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 2:59 AM BST


It's the most appropriate swearword and could never be worn out when used on cunts like you.

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 3:18 AM BST


In actual fact, you are a serial bully and could have any one of a number of personality disorders.

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm#Types

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 12:53 PM BST

Name: Baby Jane

"You are a classic case of narcissistic personality disorder."


You just noticed? keep up sweetie.


Another stalker, how many is that?




xx

Tuesday, 4 April 2006 - 1:01 PM BST


"In actual fact, you are a serial bully and could have any one of a number of personality disorders."


Says the person stalking Baby Jane on David Young's blog.


I guess you can't abuse me on the Gutshot forum because your banned, so Evil.



xx

Wednesday, 5 April 2006 - 2:33 PM BST

Name: Cartman

"part of the collective you did not like before the club was conceived"

"watch them bad boys stack up"

It's narrowing down, especially with that turn of phrase.

Wednesday, 5 April 2006 - 7:13 PM BST


You are a bully and you are a cunt. If pointing that fact out makes me a stalker, then I am the world's biggest.

I have no desire to post on a forum which I no longer read and which is sympathetic to a cunt like you. I will take exception however when you start infesting a blog that I do read with your slime.

Wednesday, 5 April 2006 - 9:00 PM BST

Name: Baby Jane

Sorry sweetie but in case it escaped your attention Mr Youngs blog entry is about me. Read away, its about Baby Jane, Mr Young is allowing me to have my say, are you still reading sweetie?

No slime coming from me, you seem the one chucking insults about anon, you also are not a fan of DY yet read his blog. Now why was it Evil got the sack again?


xx




Wednesday, 5 April 2006 - 9:37 PM BST

Name: David Young

I don't think you even know why Allan departed from GS. I hope you are not suggesting he did anything immoral or illegal. The proximate incident that led to him going was when Adrian Challis complained about service disruption in the net room and Derek wrote on the forum that Allan would

a) reply to the thread
&
b) be in the club on the following Sunday to discuss matters.

Allan did not like being presented with a fait accompli in this manner and didn't respond on the forum thread. He was also unable to go to the club on the Sunday due to prior commitments.

I told Allan that I thought he should reply on the thread. Allan didn't. At the time, I felt that Allan gave GS little choice but to at least suspend him. But firing him for good seemed excessive.

Any animosity between the various parties thereafter is after the fact. It's actually very sad that people I like have fallen out like this. Allan did good work in the net room and worked long hours to get the operation to its present size from a small start. And in the early stages he worked for relatively modest pay.

So the word 'evil' would appear to be inappropriate.

DY

Wednesday, 5 April 2006 - 9:47 PM BST


You've had your say. Now fuck off back to the Gutshot forum.

And, by the way, although you might be shocked to learn that more than one person thinks you are a total cunt, the Evil innuendoes couldn't be any wider of the mark.

Wednesday, 5 April 2006 - 10:28 PM BST

Name: Baby Jane

I would never suggest Evil did anything illegal or immoral, how could I? he's proved himself to be a pillar of the community.


So it was Evil Engel I had a chat with. Shame he needs his friends to front up for him, no doubt he will be along to call me a cunt in a minute.



Wednesday, 5 April 2006 - 10:38 PM BST

Name: David Young

"So it was Evil Engel I had a chat with."

How do you draw that conclusion? I don't think Allan has written one word in this thread. I doubt he particuarly wanted me to write about the circumstances of his departure. Believe it or not he doesn't spend all of his time in online flames. In fact when I asked him to defend himself against suggestions of impropriety he pointed out that he'd never bothered to defend himself against the lies in this:

http://s14.invisionfree.com/Gutshot/index.php?showtopic=38

where he is falsely accused. So why would he bother writing on this thread?

I've asked him to start his own blog but he declines. I think it would be hilarious reading.

DY

Wednesday, 5 April 2006 - 10:41 PM BST

Name: Baby Jane

"You've had your say. Now fuck off back to the Gutshot forum.

And, by the way, although you might be shocked to learn that more than one person thinks you are a total cunt, the Evil innuendoes couldn't be any wider of the mark."


Your a charmer.

Sometimes the truth hurts, if i'm a cunt for telling the truth then what a great big huge cunt I am. All the info I have ever used has been out in the public domain, I don't make any of it up.

I mocked Mr Young with things he had done and said, same with Evil. Guess what! Dom's Fat, Plug is ugly, Commie Boy is boring, Miros has stolen from his Pater. If you don't want to be mocked don't be so stupid, Baby always finds out.

The same people I mocked loved The Poker Bastard and The Camel for telling tales, shame they can't take it as well.




xx

Wednesday, 5 April 2006 - 11:55 PM BST


And what is the truth about you?

Thursday, 6 April 2006 - 12:59 AM BST

Name: Baby Jane

"And what is the truth about you?"



What do you want to know my little dumpling?

I'm sure Mr Young would like his blog back so make it quick.


xx

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