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Sleepless in Fulham: Rambling and gambling by David Young
Thursday, 27 April 2006
Have they looked behind the curtains?
Topic: Politics
As I hope readers will now realise, while I dislike Islamism and Islamists, I trust the 'Arab street' enough to think that if actally allowed to see Islamists in power, they will lose faith in them. And so it is that I'm actually quite pleased that Hamas won the Palestinian election, as it starts the process of disillusionment now rather than later.

It's looking good so far! The Palestinian Authority's Foreign Minister has managed to lose $450,000 in cash from his hotel room while on a trip to Kuwait. Yep, could have happened to anyone I suppose.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/709679.html

Remember that the authority is supposed to be broke and unable to pay its own staff's wages. No wonder the minister was so keen to keep this under wraps. It wasn't likely to stay secret in Kuwait though, as Kuwaitis remember how the Palestinian workers there welcomed the invasion by Saddam in 1990. They were not too popular after that and I'm sure the authorities didn't mind embarrassing them with exposure.

What was the money intended for? What will the unpaid civil servants in Gaza and the West Bank make of this? Or the voters in a place where GDP per head is under $1,000 per year? They deserve an answer.

_ DY at 3:37 PM BST
Updated: Thursday, 27 April 2006 4:05 PM BST
Post Comment | View Comments (17) | Permalink

Thursday, 27 April 2006 - 3:40 PM BST


DY with this long long debate with the middle east issue, surely it just makes you want to drop a nucleur bomb on all of them. With both sides wiped out it would be alot eaiser.

Thursday, 27 April 2006 - 7:25 PM BST

Name: David Young

with this long long debate with the middle east issue, surely it just makes you want to drop a nucleur bomb on all of them. With both sides wiped out it would be alot eaiser.

What happened to the intelligent readers out there? You don't have to agree with me, as long as you can express a counter-argument sensibly. It's been like a nursery playground on the last couple of days!

DY

Thursday, 27 April 2006 - 11:36 PM BST


Unfortunately having an intelligent debate is very difficult. You do not state the truth and you are very biased.

What I am finding very hard to comprehend is the fact that you claim to not be religious (which I believe) and yet you are pro Israel? Unless you believe that the reason Israel should exist is due to God, I do not get why you are on their side. It is Palestinian territory that has been taken over. Israel gets all the money and support from America and Palestinians have nothing.

How can you be so biased? Do you not have any regard for innocent life?

ps where you born a Jew or do you have family in Israel? I would just like to understand why you take their side.

Friday, 28 April 2006 - 1:23 AM BST

Name: David Young

Let's be clear about a few things. I generally back Israel. This doesn't mean that I back everything that Israel does. I don't support those 'greater Israel' fanatics who want to expand Israel's territory. I don't think that they should be expanding into the settlements. But on the other hand, I don't think that if they withdrew from the settlements that everything would be sweetness and light.

I do intend to write about Israel, but I think I should do some more background reading. I've read through the Factsofisrael website, some of palestinefacts, some of palestineremembered, read Dershowitz's 'Why Terrorism works' and 'The case for Israel' but I could do more. I have 'From Beirut to Jerusalem' by Thomas Friedman on the shelf to read soon. I may also check out some Finkelstein.

But I don't want this subject to take over my life. It's nice to think about something else from time to time.

I don't know how much you actually know about the history of the region, but I'm guessing that it's fairly little when you remark "It is Palestinian territory that has been taken over". No it wasn't. That is the whole point. There never was a Palestine state. The area in question was part of the Palestine British Mandate, awarded to Britain after WW1, after the collapse of the Ottoman empire (Turkey) in that war. The Ottomans were not arabs and they were not Palestinians.

See below

Meanwhile there was a movement of jews buying land in the region starting in the late 19th century and carrying on in the early 20th century. They bought land from its owners. It is perhaps the tragedy of the few peasants arabs who lived in what you consider Palestine, that they didn't own the land on which they lived. But that wasn't the fault of the jews who bought the land.

Arabs 'Palestinians' were the first to resort to violence. Check out the Hebron massacre when a community jews were killed and the survivors forced to flee. That was in 1929, long before the creation of Israel.

Israel was awarded a state by the UN. At the same time, Palestinians were given a vote on whether to accept a state. They voted no and immediately Israel was invaded by its neighbours. Israel won. Thereafter, about half a million jews who lived in other arab countries faced persecution and were forced to flee without their possessions. Many went to Israel. For a few years they lived in refugee camps, but they were eventually absorbed into Israel and became citizens. No such luck for Palestinians refugees of the same conflict who are still stuck in camps fifty years later because the neighbouring arab countries don't want them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

This forced exodus is rarely mentioned today. Check out this newspaper cover from the era

Jews in grave danger in all moslem lands.

Later in 1967, Israel was again attacked on all sides. Again it won. It took over the west bank and Gaza, as a buffer. But strangely it found itself with nobody it could negotiate a peaceful return of the land to. Egypt was offerd Gaza but declined to take it. Likewise Jordan and the west bank. The Arab league met later that year at Khartoum and held a resolution. Part of this was the 'Three No's'

3 NOs

these were -

NO peace with Israel
NO recognition of Israel
NO negotiations with Israel

so what options did Israel have?

Israel was invaded again in 1973 - the Yom Kippur war. Again it won.

The failure of arab armies to beat Israel in three wars led to the abandonment of the conventional war approach and the adoption of terrorism. When someone tells you to feel sorry for the Palestinians because they are up against a fearsome miliary machine and have no army of their own, remember that it's a tactical decision not to have their own army because they lost so often.

In 2000, Israel offered the Palestinians -

97 per cent of the West Bank,

100 per cent of Gaza,

East Jerusalem as a capital city, and

$30 billion.

Arafat said no, and left the discussions without making a counterproposal. He then launched the second intifada, knowing that Israeli reactions to terrorism would also shift world opinion again Israel. It worked. And this brings us to the present day. (This is an overview of course, I have had to be concise).

If you knew all that then fine. But I suspect that a lot of people didn't.

Friday, 28 April 2006 - 1:27 AM BST

Name: David Young

Some background reading:


How Strong Is the Arab Claim to Palestine?
By Lawrence Auster
FrontPageMagazine.com | August 30, 2004

There is a myth hanging over all discussion of the Palestinian problem: the myth that this land was "Arab" land taken from its native inhabitants by invading Jews. Whatever may be the correct solution to the problems of the Middle East, let's get a few things straight:

? As a strictly legal matter, the Jews didn't take Palestine from the Arabs; they took it from the British, who exercised sovereign authority in Palestine under a League of Nations mandate for thirty years prior to Israel's declaration of independence in 1948. And the British don't want it back.


? If you consider the British illegitimate usurpers, fine. In that case, this territory is not Arab land but Turkish land, a province of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years until the British wrested it from them during the Great War in 1917. And the Turks don't want it back.


? If you look back earlier in history than the Ottoman Turks, who took over Palestine over in 1517, you find it under the sovereignty of the yet another empire not indigenous to Palestine: the Mamluks, who were Turkish and Circassian slave-soldiers headquartered in Egypt. And the Mamluks don't even exist any more, so they can't want it back.


So, going back 800 years, there's no particularly clear chain of title that makes Israel's title to the land inferior to that of any of the previous owners. Who were, continuing backward:

? The Mamluks, already mentioned, who in 1250 took Palestine over from:


? The Ayyubi dynasty, the descendants of Saladin, the Kurdish Muslim leader who in 1187 took Jerusalem and most of Palestine from:


? The European Christian Crusaders, who in 1099 conquered Palestine from:


? The Seljuk Turks, who ruled Palestine in the name of:


? The Abbasid Caliphate of Baghdad, which in 750 took over the sovereignty of the entire Near East from:


? The Umayyad Caliphate of Damascus, which in 661 inherited control of the Islamic lands from


? The Arabs of Arabia, who in the first flush of Islamic expansion conquered Palestine in 638 from:


? The Byzantines, who (nice people—perhaps it should go to them?) didn't conquer the Levant, but, upon the division of the Roman Empire in 395, inherited Palestine from:


? The Romans, who in 63 B.C. took it over from:


? The last Jewish kingdom, which during the Maccabean rebellion from 168 to 140 B.C. won control of the land from:


? The Hellenistic Greeks, who under Alexander the Great in 333 B.C. conquered the Near East from:


? The Persian empire, which under Cyrus the Great in 639 B.C. freed Jerusalem and Judah from:


? The Babylonian empire, which under Nebuchadnezzar in 586 B.C. took Jerusalem and Judah from:


? The Jews, meaning the people of the Kingdom of Judah, who, in their earlier incarnation as the Israelites, seized the land in the 12th and 13th centuries B.C. from:


? The Canaanites, who had inhabited the land for thousands of years before they were dispossessed by the Israelites.


As the foregoing suggests, any Arab claim to sovereignty based on inherited historical control will not stand up. Arabs are not native to Palestine, but are native to Arabia, which is called Arab-ia for the breathtakingly simple reason that it is the historic home of the Arabs. The terroritories comprising all other "Arab" states outside the Arabian peninsula—including Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia, and Algeria, as well as the entity now formally under the Palestinian Authority—were originally non-Arab nations that were conquered by the Muslim Arabs when they spread out from the Arabian peninsula in the first great wave of jihad in the 7th century, defeating, mass-murdering, enslaving, dispossessing, converting, or reducing to the lowly status of dhimmitude millions of Christians and Jews and destroying their ancient and flourishing civilizations. Prior to being Christian, of course, these lands had even more ancient histories. Pharaonic Egypt, for example, was not an Arab country through its 3,000 year history.


The recent assertion by the Palestinian Arabs that they are descended from the ancient Canaanites whom the ancient Hebrews displaced is absurd in light of the archeological evidence. There is no record of the Canaanites surviving their destruction in ancient times. History records literally hundreds of ancient peoples that no longer exist. The Arab claim to be descended from Canaanites is an invention that came after the 1964 founding of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the same crew who today deny that there was ever a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. Prior to 1964 there was no "Palestinian" people and no "Palestinian" claim to Palestine; the Arab nations who sought to overrun and destroy Israel in 1948 planned to divide up the territory amongst themselves. Let us also remember that prior to the founding of the state of Israel in 1948, the name "Palestinian" referred to the Jews of Palestine.


In any case, today's "Palestine," meaning the West Bank and Gaza, is, like most of the world, inhabited by people who are not descendants of the first human society to inhabit that territory. This is true not only of recently settled countries like the United States and Argentina, where European settlers took the land from the indigenous inhabitants several hundred years ago, but also of ancient nations like Japan, whose current Mongoloid inhabitants displaced a primitive people, the Ainu, aeons ago. Major "native" tribes of South Africa, like the Zulu, are actually invaders from the north who arrived in the 17th century. India's caste system reflects waves of fair-skinned Aryan invaders who arrived in that country in the second millennium B.C. One could go on and on.


The only nations that have perfect continuity between their earliest known human inhabitants and their populations of the present day are Iceland, parts of China, and a few Pacific islands. The Chinese case is complicated by the fact that the great antiquity of Chinese civilization has largely erased the traces of whatever societies preceded it, making it difficult to reconstruct to what extent the expanding proto-Chinese displaced (or absorbed) the prehistoric peoples of that region. History is very sketchy in regard to the genealogies of ancient peoples. The upshot is that "aboriginalism"—the proposition that the closest descendants of the original inhabitants of a territory are the rightful owners—is not tenable in the real world. It is not clear that it would be a desirable idea even if it were tenable. Would human civilization really be better off if there had been no China, no Japan, no Greece, no Rome, no France, no England, no Ireland, no United States?

Back to the Arabs
I have no problem recognizing the legitimacy of the Arabs' tenure in Palestine when they had it, from 638 to 1099, a period of 461 years out of a history lasting 5,000 years. They took Palestine by military conquest, and they lost it by conquest, to the Christian Crusaders in 1099. Of course, military occupation by itself does not determine which party rightly has sovereignty in a given territory. Can it not be said that the Arabs have sovereign rights, if not to all of Israel, then at least to the West Bank, by virtue of their majority residency in that region from the early Middle Ages to the present?


To answer that question, let's look again at the historical record. Prior to 1947, as we've discussed, Palestine was administered by the British under the Palestine Mandate, the ultimate purpose of which, according to the Balfour Declaration, was the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine. In 1924 the British divided the Palestine Mandate into an Arabs-only territory east of the Jordan, which became the Kingdom of Trans-Jordan, and a greatly reduced Palestine Mandate territory west of the Jordan, which was inhabited by both Arabs and Jews.


Given the fact that the Jews and Arabs were unable to coexist in one state, there had to be two states. At the same time, there were no natural borders separating the two peoples, in the way that, for example, the Brenner Pass has historically marked the division between Latin and Germanic Europe. Since the Jewish population was concentrated near the coast, the Jewish state had to start at the coast and go some distance inland. Exactly where it should have stopped, and where the Arab state should have begun, was a practical question that could have been settled in any number of peaceful ways, almost all of which the Jews would have accepted. The Jews' willingness to compromise on territory was demonstrated not only by their acquiescence in the UN's 1947 partition plan, which gave them a state with squiggly, indefensible borders, but even by their earlier acceptance of the 1937 Peel Commission partition plan, which gave them nothing more than a part of the Galilee and a tiny strip along the coast. Yet the Arab nations, refusing to accept any Jewish sovereignty in Palestine even if it was the size of a postage stamp, unanimously rejected the 1937 Peel plan, and nine years later they violently rejected the UN's partition plan as well. When the Arabs resorted to arms in order to wipe out the Jews and destroy the Jewish state, they accepted the verdict of arms. They lost that verdict in 1948, and they lost it again in 1967, when Jordan, which had annexed the West Bank in 1948 (without any objections from Palestinian Arabs that their sovereign nationhood was being violated), attacked Israel from the West Bank during the Six Day War despite Israel's urgent pleas that it stay out of the conflict, and Israel in self-defense then captured the West Bank. The Arabs thus have no grounds to complain either about Israel's existence (achieved in '48) or about its expanded sovereignty from the river to the sea (achieved in '67).


The Arabs have roiled the world for decades with their furious protest that their land has been "stolen" from them. One might take seriously such a statement if it came from a pacifist people such as the Tibetans, who had quietly inhabited their land for ages before it was seized by the Communist Chinese in 1950. The claim is laughable coming from the Arabs, who in the early Middle Ages conquered and reduced to slavery and penury ancient peoples and civilizations stretching from the borders of Persia to the Atlantic; who in 1947 rejected an Arab state in Palestine alongside a Jewish state and sought to obliterate the nascent Jewish state; who never called for a distinct Palestinian Arab state until the creation of the terrorist PLO in 1964—sixteen years after the founding of the state of Israel; and who to this moment continue to seek Israel's destruction, an object that would be enormously advanced by the creation of the Arab state they demand. The Arab claim to sovereign rights west of the Jordan is only humored today because of a fatal combination of world need for Arab oil, leftist Political Correctness that has cast the Israelis as "oppressors," and, of course, good old Jew-hatred.

Friday, 28 April 2006 - 2:52 PM BST


This one has me split both ways.

Firstly, my anti-DY stance...

Refusing to finance the Palestinian Authority will only help Hamas. If the Palestinian Authority suffers then it will be blamed on the west, which will be good recruiting propaganda for Hamas.

Once again DY looks at the world through his western "democratic" eyes. I guess he will never learn.

Then there is this load of nonsense. Probably from our proxy via France/Hungary friend.

Whilst I don't agree with DY on most things. I do think this load of nonsense needs. Unfortunately having an intelligent debate is very difficult. You do not state the truth and you are very biased.

What I am finding very hard to comprehend is the fact that you claim to not be religious (which I believe) and yet you are pro Israel? Unless you believe that the reason Israel should exist is due to God, I do not get why you are on their side. It is Palestinian territory that has been taken over. Israel gets all the money and support from America and Palestinians have nothing.

How can you be so biased? Do you not have any regard for innocent life?

ps where you born a Jew or do you have family in Israel? I would just like to understand why you take their side.


1) "Unless you believe that the reason Israel should exist is due to God, I do not get why you are on their side."

A) The vast majority of nations are there "by the grace of god", including the UK. The monarch is "by the grace of god" and she rules "by the grace of god" over her "god given" territory. Don't single out Israel.

2) "It is Palestinian territory that has been taken over."

A) Not this old chestnut again. Before Palestine was Israel/Judea and before that stone age farmers and before that Neanderthals in caves. The Kingdom of Israel is older than any Islamic/Arabic nation on this planet. Live with that fact for it is the truth. Or do you just hate it that Alan Engel is Jewish?

3) "Do you not have any regard for innocent life?"

A) Do suicide bombers? At least the Israeli DEFENCE forces try to target people unlike the nutjobs you support.

4) "ps where you born a Jew or do you have family in Israel? I would just like to understand why you take their side."

A) It's that northern English use of the word "where" instead of "were". Gives you away everytime. I wish I "where" Jewish so I could mock you more.

Friday, 28 April 2006 - 3:56 PM BST

Name: David Young

I am never sure just how ignorant the critics of my Israel stance are. If they previously thought that I was aggressively pro-settler, I can forgive them. I never elaborated on that. But when they talk about Israel as though it's some artificial western creation and ignore the fact that every nearly arab state is an artificial western creation, I'm left baffled.

It's a bizarre idea that a nation has to keep defending its right to exist. What right does Finland, Russia or Mexico have to exist? They just do, that's it. I once watched an online debate between Professor Norman Finkelstein, Professor Alan Dershowitz and radio host Amy Goodman concerning Israel. It was remarkable to watch three white Americans discussing the rights and wrongs of the European people who form states in foreign lands. How deep does the irony get before we all drown?

I'm NOT jewish by the way. As a matter of fact I find judaism rather ridiculous (read the book of Numbers Chapter Five for a hilarious account of what you are supposed to do if you think your wife cheats on you. You should take her to a priest who will get her to drink a bowl of water that's been mixed with dust from the tablernacle. If she falls sick, she's a cheat. If not she's been faithful! How can any intelligent person believe this piffle?)

But this is not the point. You can defend Israel from a purely secular stance. Most Israelis are not all that religious. I support them because they are a democratic country with elections, free press, courts and juries. Israel is the only country in the middle east that's had gay pride marches, has equal rights for women or had a transexual win a song contest. Its young people dance in nightclubs and fuck with abandon because they live for today.

By contrast, Israel's neighbours encourage their young people in austere misery now to live for deferred gratification in the afterlife. They are openly fascist, homophobic and sexist.

How on earth did western liberal minded people come to empathise with sexist, homophobic, religious fascists?

If you want some light relief, check out this picture of Yasser Arafat's uncle (and mentor) meeting Hitler:

Haj Amin al-Husseini in Berlin meeting Hitler

Nice to know that as late as 2002, Yasser Arafat declared this man to be a "national hero" to Palestinians! Not bad for someone wanted for war crimes at Nuremberg! I guess they like the way that he overruled Adolf Eichmann when the latter wanted to accept the International Red Cross's offer to let 5,000 jewish children out in exchange for a return of German POWs in the war. The children were all gassed. What a hero!

DY

Friday, 28 April 2006 - 6:02 PM BST

Name: Richard123

“Do suicide bombers? At least the Israeli DEFENCE forces try to target people unlike the nut jobs you support.”

Dear on dear. The worrying thing is you might actually believe this. Let me just think about this for a minute.

A Brazilian guy gets shot in the UK for being a suspected terrorist. These things happen and it is very unfortunate. Tony Blair has personally apologized to the family and Brazilian prime minister.

A British journalist who was making a documentary about the suffering of Palestinian children, when waving a bright white flag gets shot by an Israeli soldier. What happened? Not even an apology from Ariel Sharon. The Israelis tried to cover up the case with their usual lies. They said that James Miller was shot in the back which may have been from Palestinian gunfire.

The videotape proves that there is no crossfire.
They were wearing helmets and flak jackets littered with TV signs. The Israeli army has, thanks to the Americans, some of the best night vision technology in the world. Their kit turns nights into day. James was shot in the front of his neck by an Israeli bullet and was mortally wounded.
No soldier has been disciplined or charged and in court the cameraman’s family has accused Israel of a cover-up, claiming there is evidence that his killer is Lieutenant Heib of the Israeli occupation force.
Finally, after three years of shooting James, a UK court rules that IOF shooting of the filmmaker was a deliberate cold-blooded murder.
I am only talking about the above because I am explaining the Israelis mind-set. What happened above is nothing and one can only imagine what the Palestinians have to put up with.

I am seriously against genocide. I hate it when I think about what happened in the Holocaust. If I was alive back then I would have bloody spoken out and would never just sit back when innocent lives get slaughtered. I do not want anyone to feel offended by what I am saying but I believe it to be the truth. I believe what is happening to the Palestinians is like another Holocaust. For example, the numerous curfews are one of the main concerns in the harsh Israeli stronghold over Palestinians. The curfews themselves are extremely restraining, but nothing can compare to the way these curfews are enforced, categorizing them as human rights violations. In July of 2002, 600,000 Palestinians in the West Bank were confined to day curfews. These curfews were so harsh that housewives could be killed for merely going outside and hanging up wet laundry. These curfews do more than place more anger and fear in the hearts of Palestinians. They are also clear signs of another Holocaust.
The problem of curfews fall short of the theft of property Palestinians have witnessed. Israel has relentlessly taken Palestinian land during times of war and still does today. A fact even more disturbing is that Israel presently rules Palestinian land illegally due to Resolution 242 passed by the United Nations Security Council on November 26, 1967. Resolution 242 states that during wartime a country cannot claim the territory of another; they must return any captured land after the war. Needless to say, Israel still occupies Palestinian land.
The ultimate sign of any injustice, mass murders under the order of the government. Under Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, these massacres and single acts of unjust killings are symbols of his complete disregard for humanity. The United Nations have recognized these human injustices, on April 15, 2002 they "demanded the end of 'acts of mass killings perpetrated by the Israelis occupying authorities,'" (Hoffman). These demands arise from the acknowledgement of increased Palestinian assault orders given by Prime Minister Sharon.

I can only agree with DY on one thing. That is with reference to the expanding of territory. I do not believe that Israel should not exist. However, WHAT THE MAJOR PROBLEM IS that they want to expand their territory and they act in a terrible genocidal manner. When religion comes into it there is a problem. A Jew and a Muslim are more likely to be biased. To try and better ourselves we need to look at the bigger picture and act accordingly. We should not fall for the propaganda on both sides and maintain a view whilst taking into account each side.

What bothered me is that the anonymous person who poster probably truly believes that Israel does not deliberately target innocent life. This is worrying. At the end of the day there is good and bad in everyone. Only when we understand this can we start to begin peace talks.

Palestinians are dying, unjustly, that is all that need to be said to act on this issue and change the situation. They live in poverty, unable to govern themselves and build themselves up as a nation due to the extremely strong restrictions that bind them. The anger of such groups as Hamas is understandable, but their use of terrorism hides the integrity of their cause. It is also understandable that Israel takes certain measures to protect their people from terrorism, but they are now destroying a race – they are committing genocide. It is only when these humanitarian injustices of Palestinians are solved and this unrecognized Holocaust is put to an end that the true path to peace in the Middle East can begin.

Friday, 28 April 2006 - 7:23 PM BST

Name: David Young

Richard,

Are you a member of the ISM? I recognise a lot of their language in your post. I just want to be clear where you are coming from.

No country has a perfect record on human rights. And democracies at war can't be judged in the same way as other nations at peace. Israel has been invaded three times and it was also struck by misslies from Iraq during the 1st Gulf War! Its enemies don't recognise its right to exist. We know that because the PLO was founded in 1964 - three years before the six-day war that led to the occupation. At that time, the West Bank belonged to Jordan. And the PLO's founding charter made clear that it laid claim to the whole of the British mandate - wanting the whole of Israel and Jordan! Hence the name 'Palestine Liberation Organisation'. Note that it's Palestine, not Palestinian. The aim was to liberate 'palestine' of jews. Palestinians could have been living in their own state in 1948 if they had wanted it enough. But their bigger concern was destroying Israel. That hatred goes back, as I have shown above, to 1929.

Hamas also seeks the destruction of Israel. It demands this in its charter. So while it might please you to see Israelis leaving their settlements, don't imagine that this would be the end of it.

You talk of the curfew in the Palestinian areas as though this was happening in a vacuum. It isn't. Israelis were being murdered in disgusting suicide attacks. And the number killed was a fraction of the number of intended deaths because a lot of killers were intercepted before reaching their target.

Somewhere between a quarter and a third of the population of Israel is Arab. (including the Israeli soldier who shot the British journalist). Those arabs, who are citizens of Israel, are not blowing themselves up. While they experience the frustration of being in the minority, they have a better standard of living than most arabs in neighbouring states like Syria for instance.

I don't know what motivated Israelis to try to settle in the occupied territories, but building a house is not a war crime! As I have shown above, the land in question could have been given back after the 67 war, had their been any negotiation. But the arabs resolved at Khartoum not to talk peace. So who deserves the blame?

It is I who sees the bigger picture. I have gone into great detail about the background. You focus on one side to the exclusion of the wider issue.

DY

Sunday, 30 April 2006 - 4:23 AM BST

Name: Tory Bird

'It is I who sees the bigger picture'
LOL
Like most poker players, you have a grandiose self regard.
You are sooooo predictable in all your views.You support the right-wing in all western countries and all elections around the globe. You consistently support rightist neo-con policies,you never concede any points and you never voice any doubts.I'm a blinkered tory myself,I even voted for Major and the other fools,however I could never support a clown like Bush or an ogre like Sharon.

Yes, muslim/arab fundamentalism/terrorism is vile.
yes , Israel did justify our sympathies in the 1960's and 1970's
yes, palestine as an independent arab nation is a tenuous claim historically.

However let's also note that many of thousands of palestinian/arab people lived in these areas for many hundreds of years,most of the time left to their own devices.The British didn't just abondon the territory to whoever fancied it.They were driven out by brutal terrorist action by israeli insurgents(how ironic)

The 'arabs' left in or around the new state were treated as 2nd class citizens(rather like blacks in South Africa,native american indians or aborigines in australia)-If you were born a palestinian arab,I think your views might be slightly different.Even before the new state was created the arabs/palestinians began protesting/rioting.They were concerned for their land, their religion, their rights,their stability and security; -they weren't wrong in hindsight.
The argument that you seem to support claiming possession is 9/10ths of the law entirely justifies Israel's actions in the 60's and 70's...but does this justify rebel Rhodesia or apathied South Africa or China's control/ownership of tibet?
Tony Blair said he supported Bush in Iraq partly to promote his road map for peace. Even TB realised stabilty in the middle-east and further afield can only be fostered by a solution/deal in Israel.These hopes are utterly shattered. Partly because of Sharon/hamas , but surely TB realised that no American administration has serously pressurized Israel.We all know why.

Sunday, 30 April 2006 - 5:30 AM BST

Name: Richard123

WOW, excellent post Tory Bird!!!

Sunday, 30 April 2006 - 2:50 PM BST

Name: David Young

Is it meant to be a criticism that I'm consistent? You say You support the right-wing in all western countries and all elections around the globe. You consistently support rightist neo-con policies. Well why on earth wouldn't I? If I think that low taxation is right in one country, I am likely to think it's good for another. And so on....

DY

Monday, 1 May 2006 - 1:28 AM BST


Do you actually pay any taxes?

Monday, 1 May 2006 - 8:17 PM BST

Name: Baby Jane

Nothing to do with me sweetie, i'd just call Engel a cunt and not bother with the race bullshit. Your forum is not doing too well, interesting to see you backing Mr Young after being so nasty to his good friend Mr Lloyd.




xx

Tuesday, 2 May 2006 - 4:46 PM BST

Name: jamie

I'm from up north and I wasn't familiar with the use of 'where' rather than 'were'. Isn’t that just an example of someone who can’t spell?

On the subject of spelling, and going back a couple of weeks, it's 'defence' and not 'defense' ‘(A quick and simple defense of Thatcherism’). We might be rubbish at most things in this country David, but at least we know how to spell properly.

Wednesday, 3 May 2006 - 12:20 AM BST


http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22286

Wednesday, 3 May 2006 - 12:42 AM BST


The spelling could have been just a simple mistake, which we are all capable of.

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