I'd also like to say, it might not all come totally through from just the mere typed words here, but maybe a little more so on the audio tape, but nothing like in the flesh, but Craig, Nathan and Stuart were a complete pleasure to interview.
I was awestruck going into this interview, because despite their extremely low profile here in Australia, I've had Pony Express Records and 50,000 BC for some time now, though the guys didn't seem to have any concept of that. I've been in awe of their talent and their daring on Pony Express in particular and it was such an honour to meet the creators behind it.
I admit to being completely charmed by Craig, especially during his nice fortune reading and analysis for me. He seems to exude ... I'm not quite sure what. But in the short time I spent talking to him he struck me as one of the most beautifully sincere, gentle and sweet individual I have ever met. He has the sweetest smile, and his eyes twinkle when he does so, that only makes you sit there and grin back. He exudes love I think. And he is so amazingly articulate, and is so animate when he speaks. He speaks so beautifully with his hands. I don't know, there's something so artistically elegant about him.
Stuart and Nathan were complete delights to talk to as well. Nathan struck me as a very trusting person, very open and honest and sincere. And I appreciat and respect that and that's why I'm not sharing absolutely everything that was said in the conversation. Because he is so trusting you feel equally as trusting back, something you do not want to betray that trust.
When I was talking to Nathan, I found he really talks to you, I found myself staring into his eyes and seeing him looking right through into me. I felt like his eyes were like black voids, black holes and I was falling into them and I couldn't look away. Hard to explain. Usually at some point in time eye contact becomes uncomfortable and you look away. Or you're trying to psyche the other person out, or you're like in love with them and can't look away or something. This wasn't like that ... I'm not sure what. But my eyes seemed to be locked when he was looking into mine and I couldn't break away. Maybe I was entranced? In restropect that sounds very creepy, it wasn't it just ... was.
It was such a wonderful experience to find out that not only are these three individuals among the most talented musicians, artists I have ever encountered but they are also the most sincere and beautiful people as well. I hope they keep on making beautiful music, and their music reaches out to more people across the globe.
I really hope they visit Australian shores again and I get to meet them once more. Numerous times more. :) I give them all my love and best wishes.
- Angela Chiew
Notes from the interviewer
This is pretty much most of the interview. I have edited it because somethings were asked to be kept in confidence and there were some parts of the interview that I thought were quite personal and would not be appreciated to be put into a public forum for all eyes to see.
Shudder To Think
Interview with Craig Wedren, Nathan Larson and Stuart Hill
by Angela Chiew for Web In Front www.webinfront.com.au
Director's Hotel, Adelaide, Australia0
Angela: Yeah.
Nathan: Born here?
Angela: Yes, born, raised and live here.
Nathan: What ethnicity are you?
Angela: Spanish, Filipino, Chinese-Malaysian.
Nathan: Wow, that's a nice mix.
Angela: Thank you. How about you guys?
Nathan: I am Swedish-Russian. Russian, Swedish third generation.
Angela: Yeah? Did you grow up in NYC?
Nathan: No, grew up in Seattle and moved to New York. Well moved to DC for high school, and moved to New York about ten years ago. So that's my deal.
Angela: So did all you guys meet in NYC?
Nathan: We met in DC.
Stuart: Yeah.
Angela: I had only heard ...(pointing to my Pony Express Record and 50,000BC cd's) these are the only two (records) I had heard of before, but then I did some research and found out there are releases dating back to '88.
Nathan and Stuart: Yeah.
Nathan: Yeah, Dischord records which was the ... you're familiar with the label? They do Fugazi .. it's basically Ian Mackeye's label.
Stuart: It's one of the last true independent label's in the States. No major label.
Nathan: Honest to goodness, independent label. Very, very cool, very grassroots, very independent minded ...
Angela: Right. Well tell me ... no one here really knows you at all.
Nathan: Yeah I know.
Angela: Yeah so this is a good opportunity for you to tell me everything, from the beginning.
Nathan: Yeah I know, what can we say... what can we tell you?
Angela: Everything ...
Nathan: Well gees ...
Stuart: It started in late '86. Craig and I, are the two original members. And we did we started in DC we did an album, we did four. We did an album ourselves basically, through a really small DC label. And then we did three albums on Dischord, and then Nathan and Adam joined the band around '91 I guess, after about five years.
Angela: So how did you originally know each other?
Stuart: Nathan?
Angela: Friends?
Stuart: Yeah, Nathan went to school with Craig, they went to high school together, and they had collaborated on a lot of music in high school. And so when our guitarist left, Nathan was originally a bass player.
Nathan: I was. For a punk band called Suez.
Stuart: For a punk called Suez and we had always sorted toured together and when our gutiarist left Nathan had subsequently started playing guitar and you know, he and Craig had worked together a lot in the past so it sort of made sense he would come in and ...
Angela: So what was this earlier stuff like? Was it as experimental as like Pony Express?
Nathan: It's much more .... no ... the first few records were pretty straight ahead although perhaps ... have you had much of a chance to listen to this? (Pony Express Records)
Angela: (You have got to be kidding? Do you not realise it completely revolutionalised any preconceptions I may have had about rock, or any form of music?!?!?!?!) Oh yeah ... I've had these for like ... these have been permanently stuck in my CD player, I've had these for a while.
Nathan: Oh great so ... this (Pony), I think the early stuff, the really early stuff was pretty straight ahead, pretty punk, well not punk, like melodic punk with Craig's voice.
Stuart: Yeah, I don't know. Each record is kinda changed a bit.
Angela: I find this record (50,000BC) more ... accessible.
Nathan: Yeah definitely ... this was the most straight possible record we could do at the time. I think largely due to the circumstances (during which it was recorded). I guess this is only coming out here now but it was out in the States about a year ago. Craig, the vocalist had Hodgkinson's disease, he had cancer. And so this was a really, really rough time. He was undergoing treatment throughout the entire period of recording this record. So I think psychologically we wanted to do the exact opposite of this record which I feel is pretty dark, pretty ....
Stuart: Yeah it made us ... it was too depressing to play depressing music. This is more uplifting.
Nathan: Yeah, because life was pretty dark. So we wanted something just light and joyful to communicate so it was a little more um, bubblegum to people. So it was sort of therapeutic, or we couldn't have possible dredged through the darkness to do this, so we decided to make this a little more fun. (Change of tone) Although, I don't think people in the States certainly. It's kinda ironic because this came out in 1994 (Pony Express) and people initially, our old fans were like "what is this fucking stuff, this is like bizarre and depressing" ....
[Kevin March - drummer from Dambuilders and now Shudder to Think and equipment guy and friend Dave walk in, after buying Nathan some cigarettes]
Nathan: Oh fuck you found some Fantasia's - how much are they?
Kev: $11.
Nathan: $11? Jesus!
Stuart: Jesus!
Nathan: This is Kevin who plays drums for us. He played on this (Pony) and he played in the Dambuilders.
Angela: Oh yeah that's right.
Nathan: This is Dave. He's our good friend and he's travelling with us.
Dave: You having a beer?
Nathan: We're having a beer my friend. Would like to have a seat and have a beer.
Angela: Have a seat!
Nathan: Yes please, have a seat.
Angela: Wow, this is like two of my favourite bands. The Dambuilders.
Nathan: She loves the Dambuilders, man!
Angela: I love the Dambuilders!
Kev: Awesome!
Angela: I'm in heaven here! I thought I would never get to see you guys at all unless I went to NYC ...
Nathan, Stu and Kev: And here we are ...
Stuart: We're in your town!
Nathan: We're having so much fun because it's such a beautiful country. It's unbelievable.
Angela: Everyone I know who I told, who knows you, told me I have to make sure I convince you guys that you have to come back and headline some shows.
Nathan: We will. We will. So you know [getting back to what we were talking about before], it took a lot of people to come around to this record (Pony Express). Because it requires a lot of the listener, you really have to sit down ...
Angela: Yes, I've heard the most mixed reviews for this album ...
Nathan: Yeah. You can either hate it or you love it. But this one, kinda because it's the polar opposite ... I think it took years for people to get into this record (Pony) and now, at least in the States this is kinda like a really weird cult record, people are really into this. When this thing (50,000 BC) came out people were like "You guys are fucking totally cheesed out".
Angela: :) To be honest that's what I thought too when I first heard this.
Nathan: I know. But don't think that about us.
Angela: But it's taken a while and lately it's really been getting into me.
Nathan: Because it's really just the flip side of this (Pony). At least in spirit.
Angela: Well, how much time was there between the two albums?
Stuart: About two years.
Nathan: Two years. Because you know, Craig had cancer. And he was ... it was a long process and he had to get better.
Stuart: Plus we toured a lot after this (Pony) came out, plus it takes us a long time to write a record.
Nathan: We did, we toured a huge amount.
Angela: Yeah? Just around America or ...
Stuart: We've been to Europe.
Nathan: We've been to Europe.
Angela: How did Europe take to you?
Nathan: Europe is mixed, we do well in pockets. We do well in London ...
Angela: I thought with this stuff (Pony) Europe would be more receptive ...
Nathan: Yeah I'm told it did well in France but we didn't really get to experience it. The most recent tour we did there was with Pavement and us and Mercury Rug.
Angela: Pavement ...
Nathan: Oh we love Pavement ...
Angela: Oh yeah but I mean how the Pavement crowd (would understand you) ...
Nathan: I think in Europe they are more open to (?) types of bands than they are in the states. I don't know, people came around to this (Pony) and then when this came out (50,000 BC) it was a shock to the folks who had finally, and this (Pony) was the sound that they expected. It was sort of ...
Angela: Are you steering away from this? (Pony)
Nathan: No, No. It was very deliberate in the sense that we wanted to strip everything down, the time was very, we needed to do something light because we were sad.
Angela: So this (50,000 BC) was recorded when?
Nathan: '97
Stuart: No '96. Came out '97.
Nathan: Right '96.
Angela: And have you written much material since?
Nathan: Yeah well we have a couple ... we kinda shift our attentions for a while to soundtracks for films.
Angela: That would be First Love, Last Rites?
Stuart: Yeah, that's right.
Nathan: And that's going to be the next record that comes out. It's going to come out in the States in August. Probably here and Europe ...
Angela: Now I heard that Jeff (Buckley) was supposed to do the vocals for that ...
Nathan: He did.
Stuart: Well he did one song.
Nathan: He did.
Angela: And it's on it?
Nathan and Stuart: Yes
Angela: (quietly) YES! :)
Nathan: Well, we got a lot of guest vocalists to sing on it. We got Billy Corgan to sing on it ... the concept is that in the film there is girl who has all these 45" records and in there is supposed to be this random assortment of 45"s from all differnt areas, all different genres. So in there you have like 60's soul and then a delta blues thing ...
Angela: Sounds like a lot of fun ...
Nathan: Yeah so we got to work with all these different genres and then pull up all these awesome singers. So there's Billy Corgan, Jeff (Buckley), and Liz Phair, and Nina from the Cardigans, Matt Johnson from The The The, John Doe from an American band called X - who I don't know if you have heard of, but you should check out. There's an Australian band called X but I'm afraid to say they're not as good.
Angela: Oh well I didn't even know we had a band called Ex.
Kevin: There's a Japanese band called X.
Nathan: It's such a cool band name. You've got to call your band X because it's too rad. But who else did we get.
Stuart: Robin Zander from Cheap Trick
Nathan: You remember Cheap Trick? [sings] "I want you to know me...
Stuart: The singer from the Blown Colonials (?) Angela McClusky.
Nathan: Singer from this band Camada (?) who you should check out, they're on the Minty Fresh label. So a lot of really awesome people we've gotten to sing songs and we sang a couple of tracks. It's just a really cool record, it's also just a (just a really big melding pot) of styles, very warm and pop oriented ... And then we did this soundtrack for a movie called High Art which is a lot more ambient and textural and classical sounding ... but we don't know what the hell we're doing.
Angela: So what seems to be coming together for the next one? (STT album)
Nathan: Well the stuff we're writing for the next record is just really pretty. Really beautiful, and very, very quiet and ... so far ... and um, very uh ... [to Stuart] How would you describe a song like Majora (?)
Stuart: Mellow.
Nathan: Very mellow.
Stuart: More acoustically ...
Nathan: Not in a folky way just progressively ...
Angela: [acoustically ...] That's a side of (STT) that I haven't yet really seen, well heard.
Nathan: Yeah.
Stuart: Yeah and so that's why I think it's little more mellow.
Nathan: Yeah and actually if you have a computer [takes out my 50,000 BC disk] ... If you put this in a computer, there's a CD rom on it. And there's an entire acoustic show on it ...
Stuart: It comes up on the screen.
Nathan: It comes up on the screen, so .. believe it or not, it's on the record. So yeah just ... softer, yeah less rock ... so far ... but we just started writing for it so ... We're certainly going to do more film work, it's been really, really fun.
Angela: Now I don't know if you guys realise this but um ... Well though your profile is very low here, what we do know of you is largely due to Jeff. That when Jeff toured down here he just raved about you guys and that's how I got into you ...
Nathan: Yeah ... He was a really, really amazing friend of ours. And he's someone we miss a lot because he was amazing. There's never going to be anyone else like him.
Angela: Did you get to do ... tell me how you first met him and everything.
Nathan: Um he was, I remember meeting him first at the 9.30 club at one of our shows. He was really drunk and he looked beautiful. He was wearing this like really weird, like black toriodor (?) shirt and I knew he was Tim Buckley's son but beyond that I didn't know he was a singer really. I thought he was too good looking to be talented. Like I sort of blew him off, I thought "You're a freak. You're too hot to possible be that good". And then you knew, so we knew him over the years but we never really heard any of his music until he started working with Andy Wallace. Andy mixed this (Pony) and ...
Stuart: He had just finished doing Grace (Andy) and we were like play us some of the music so he popped in a song ...
Nathan: And then we all burst into tears and called Jeff ...
Stuart: We were like "wow"
Nathan: He was mastering Grace and we called him at Masterdus (?) which is this place where you master, and we just like cried and talked to him and then the next week I remember it was the Summer and we went down and saw him play at these little shows at the Fez and he did a couple of shows and I was just like fucking bawling.
We used to have ... Well me and Craig had our little (discussion) there was some weird ... Whenever you have a strong person in your life and they do what you do, and are that talented and that ... it's always so .. a struggle to feel worthy. Although he felt the same way about us and whenever, when we did the tour for this (Mind Scinece) Jeff played bass for us and ... He was ... he was ... he was the best.
And then on the soundtrack he sang one song, that we've been having huge legal (problems with) because of his record label. Because they didn't want to let us have it even though it was our song. Even though we wrote it and all he did was sing it ... That's why it's taken so long to get out. But it's coming out in August. If you catch us later at some point and we're somewhere with a CD player we'll play you some of it.
Angela: Awesome. Have you heard much ... well, you know how the Jeff album is coming out in May ...
Nathan: Yeah you know what - that album is bullshit.
Stuart: No, it's not bullshit.
Nathan: Yes it is, it's bullshit.
Angela: So I gather that you're ... well I know, I have heard that Mary (Guibert) has been working with some of his friends and band members choosing what goes on the album ...
Nathan: Do you want to know the deal? For the record? I suppose we shouldn't be talking about this. [looking at Stuart] Should we?
Stuart: I don't know. It's our interview.
[Nathan turns off my tape recorder and we talk about it. We finish discussing the topic and he turns my tape recorder back on]
Angela: Are there plans for another Mind Science of the Mind album?
Nathan: I don't know, what do you think Kevin? No, we're all too busy doing other stuff. Shudder To Think is about to ...
Angela: Because everyone I know who has heard this and loves this really wants to hear another one.
Nathan: Well we'll totally get around to it but the Shudder To Think album is going to be really good and is what we've got to focus on.
Angela: Do you sing much other than on (Mind Science).
Nathan: Just have started to.
Angela: Because Does It Rain In Your Womb is just ... beautiful.
Nathan: Oh, why thank you. Just have started to a bit with the band, but I've also started to develop a vocal pollop which I'll probably have to have surgery on. It's a bit like a singer node but it comes back. I was going to be singing some stuff on this tour but I wasn't able to do that because the doctors recommended that I don't. Craig just had the same thing. It's really bad.
Angela: That's not good.
Nathan: No.
Angela: [to Stuart] Your health is OK?
Stuart: Yeah
Nathan: Stuart is a healthy man.
Stuart: Pretty healthy.
Kevin: Very healthy.
Nathan: Kevin, are you healthy?
Kevin: I'm OK.
Stuart: I'm kind of a freak.
Nathan: (to me) Are you healthy? Do you feel good?
Angela: Yeah. Uh, well actually no.
Nathan: No? Really?
Angela: I think I'm coming down with something, but on the whole I think I'm ok. So, when do you think this new album will be put together?
Stuart: We'll be working on it when we get back.
Nathan: We are trying to work on stuff while we're on the road but it's kinda hard. We're playing some new songs live, just to see how they feel.
Angela: And how has the reception been?
Nathan: Um, mixed. I mean they've been relatively, pretty polite. On the whole. Every show there are always people that scream "Fuck you".
Stuart: It's a lot to ask. Coz people have never heard of us before and they want to see Pearl Jam.
Nathan: And we're a weird band. We're a fucking weird band. So to put us up there ...
Stuart: Yeah so considering, it's been pretty good. And a lot of people have real come up to us and said, "We've never heard of you before but we really love your music" and that's been great. So I think we're winning people over. And hopefully we'll get to come back and do our own thing.
Nathan: Yeah that'd be awesome, that'd be cool.
Kevin: The best thing was playing three shows in Melbourne.
Nathan: Yeah that was really nice.
Kevin: A lot of people came to all three nights.
Nathan: Yeah so they were able to sort of you know ...
Angela: You're not playing any shows just on your own are you.
Nathan: No we sort of opted to, if we had time off, to just see a bit of Australia because we have never been here before. We're really excited, it's really beautiful.
Angela: And have you gotten to see much?
Nathan: Yeah we've seen.
Stuart: A lot of the cities. We haven't been able to get out into the outback which is what I really want to do.
Angela: So where have you been? You been to Perth?
Stuart: No just Melbourne. We did a couple of shows in New Zealand before that.
Angela: How was New Zealand?
Stuart: It was amazing.
Nathan: Have you been there?
Angela: No.
Nathan: Oh my god it's ...
Stuart: It's so incredible.
Angela: I know geographically it's just ...
Nathan: It's unbelievable. Is there like weirdness between New Zealanders and Australians? Like is there a big attitude?
Angela: Yeah.
Nathan: Why is that?
Angela: Uh, I don't really know. I guess they're just a little too close for comfort. And New Zealanders just seem a little odd to us. I guess it's kinda like the Irish thing.
Nathan: Right. Sheep fucking ...
Angela: Yeah sheep fucking jokes.
Nathan: Yeah, yeah.
Angela: So were you in Auckland with the no power thing.
Nathan: Yeah it was fine. It was weird but it was fine. We didn't notice a damn thing.
Kevin: But they had generators ...
Stuart: A couple of shops were closed but there were no homes were effected, just businesses. It was just the central business district.
Nathan: And we ran into some freaks in Auckland too. People just go for it there. All night. Just rock.
Angela: Really?
Nathan and Stu: Yeah.
Nathan: They just *go* for it. [to Stu and Kevin] Am I wrong?
Kevin: No, you're the one that experienced it the most.
Nathan: But they're really good people for the most part. We haven't met a (?) like thus far, which is really good about Australian and New Zealand people.
Angela: Yeah I think people on the whole are just really friendly here.
Nathan: Yeah which is just so important to us especially from where we come from.
Angela: Sydney is a little more aggressive I think, and probably more in the rhythm of New York. Well I assume, I've never been to NYC but I'd assume so in the big city type of way. But to me, Melbourne just seems like a bigger, busier version of Adelaide. To me anyway
Nathan: Right. But we're loving it, we're really loving it. And I'll tell you a funny story. We didn't know that our record: this record (Pony) and this record (50,000 BC) were not out in Australia.
Stuart: This one got out in Australia (50,000 BC)
Nathan: No it didn't.
Stuart: Yeah it did.
Nathan: It did? I don't believe it did. [to me] Is this an import? (50,000 BC)
Angela: Uh yeah.
Kevin: This was released right? (Mind Science of the Mind)
Angela: Yes, that definitely was.
Kevin: That is like so bizarre. So bizarre.
Nathan: That was released and did pretty well.
Stuart: I guess because ...
Nathan: That's because of our contracts ...
Angela: Yeah but they did it (the marketing) with the like "so and so from The Dambuilders" stickers on the front like this and all that, instead of just ...
Nathan: True. So like they *should* have done in the States.
Kevin: That is so weird. Yeah exactly.
Angela: Hey yeah, so what ethnicity is Joan?
Nathan: She's German. German and French. She looks like she's got some Asian in her. She has some of the Eurasian vibe. But she doesn't, I always sort of thought that too but, she's German and French ... Wasser.
Angela: Oh yeah, I guess. That's very German.
Kevin: That's Canadian. A little French-Canadian.
Angela: [picking up Pony Express] Well this was like *nothing* I had ever heard before.
Nathan: Yeah it's a freak out.
Angela: Yeah so like ... how ... where does it all come from? How do these songs eventuate?
Nathan: Well I guess in retrospect, Stu what do you think? I think basically we deliberately sat down and said we want to make music that is not like any other music we have ever heard. So we made up a lot of chords and we worked really, really, really hard to make it sound as fucked up as we possibly could. But in a way that's still kept the like format of like a rock band. I mean, and we weren't trying to ... and we were like trying to push the envelope a bit, and ask something of the listeners. I know it sounds sort of pretentious but that's kind of what we were doing.
And also we were like ... [to Stu] you were 24 right. I was 22, Craig was 23 ... we were like ... [to me] How old are you?
Angela: 19.
Stuart: Nineteen??!
Nathan: [Exchanges glances with Stu and is patting me on the leg - I don't know, they were surprised or something I guess. I was just embarrassed and thinking - I really got to start lying about my age.] Alright. That's good, that's good. I was going to say, well we were younger. We felt like we had a fucking beef with everybody. And we felt like we were out there by ourselves and no one gave a shit about us. To a degree. And we were fucking on our own and we were wanting to like totally take apart song structure, and mix and make like ... new sounding rock.
Coz we like rock. And we also really like, especially Craig, and me to some degree and Stuart probably to a lesser degree - tell me if I'm mis-speaking, we were listening to a lot of, we were getting into a lot of more experimental music like John Cage or weird (?) classical stuff, free jazz, so tried to like bring in those ...
But also we felt like we had a mission. We still do.
Stuart: We're still on that mission.
Nathan: We're still on that mission.
Angela: What's that?
Nathan: I don't know what that mission is any more. It doesn't have a name. It's almost like we are, what do you call it? Those kinds of spies, that doesn't really know they're the blah blah blah, or they don't know what kind of mission, yet you are fighting it out for some unseen force.
Angela: You'll find it out along the way.
Nathan: Is that fucking stupid?
Kevin: Not at all.
Nathan: This was also a time in our lives where we just started going for it.
Angela: Talk me through the song writing process. As a general thing.
Nathan: How do we do it?
Angela: Yeah.
Nathan: Generally speaking we came up with guitar parts, they were really, totally messed up. Then we brought them in and then Stuart would work with his bass around the guitar parts and we would, and then the drums would have to worked around the guitar parts. That's how we would nut it out. As opposed to laying down this beat to the song and playing over it. So we work sort of backward. And I think you can kind of tell. Coz the drum parts are very sort of trashy, you sort of take them part by part. It's like a lot of improvisation and lots of free room. Which we kind of got sick of which is why when we did this (50,000 BC) ... especially me and Stuart ...
Angela: So the stuff before was it more like this? (50,000 BC)
Stuart: No. We did one record which was more like this.
Nathan: Yeah.
Stuart: Another record was kind of like this though (Pony).
Nathan: To a lesser degree.
Stuart: And it's just kind of ... I think if you take the records one by one, and listen to the subsequent records, you can kind of get the evolution of the song writing and playing and also this (Pony) was the first record with this line up. The first four records had the four original members. And then Nathan, we had different ... Nathan and Adam joined the band and we started writing this music (Pony) so that's another change to the song writing and playing.
Nathan: Yeah.
Angela: So what are your influences?
Nathan: In specific?
Angela: Yeah or well what did you grow up listening to ...
Nathan: Now or then?
Angela: Both.
Nathan: I mean now, at least for me, I can't listen to much but like classic type of soul from the 60's. Stuff like that, that's what I really get into. Or like you know, nice piano music. Stuart what do you listen to?
Stuart: I also listen to a lot of soul stuff and I still do the rock and I listen to a lot of classical and lately I've started to get into jazz. Jazz has always been - I've never been that into jazz but lately it's I'm kinda getting into it.
Nathan: Kevin what do you listen to?
Kevin: Van Morrison.
Nathan: It's a beautiful record.
Kevin: It is a great record. What else do I listen to? I got that new Propellor Heads album.
Nathan: Do you like that?
Kevin: It's OK.
Nathan: I don't know, I listen to a lot of like old country music. George Jones. You know George Jones?
Angela: [shake head no]
Nathan: And ...
Kevin: We were listening to Devo last night ...
Nathan: We were listening to Devo.
Kevin: ... and The Germs
Nathan: What else did we listen to? Oh Hawaiian music, some Strauss opera, Devo, soul, straight up (?) stuff. We listen to Van Morrison. Um, I don't know.
Kevin: Bob Dylan. I've been listening to the new Bob Dylan record. I'm listening to that a lot.
Nathan: [to me] Have you heard it? It's a really beautiful record. Um I like German caberet music. I love old Bowie.
Angela: Who does the lyrics for most of your songs?
Nathan: Well Craig does everything sort of Shudder To Think and I did everything for that (Mind Science). Carig's like definitely a lyric freak, his mind is very creative. He has a unique approach to lyrics. His songs have less emphasis on being direct lyrically, but more give you the feeling or vibe. What you feel that it's about you'd be right because it doesn't really mean anything specific. And that's one of the cool things about being in this band. People will come up to us with what they think about certain songs. And they'll be like "my girlfriend and I have been listening to this and this and we thought it was about you know being ina relatinoship and now ..." because if you can keep them abstract ... if they want to if they want to participate they can have fun with them. But I don't know if a lot of people want to do that ...
[Craig finishes his interview and comes to join our table]
Nathan: [to me] Have you met Craig? Yeah you met Craig ...
Angela: Yeah.
Craig: What are you guys talking about?
Nathan: We're talking about these (Pony Express and 50,000 BC)
Craig: What a coincidence because we were talking about these.
Nathan: We're talking about some lyrics.
Craig: You want to know about some lyrics.
Angela: Yeah.
Craig: What uh ... what uh ... what do you need to know?
Nathan: You want an analysis?
Angela: Hehe, I don't know. Do you do that?
Nathan: Do we do that?
Craig: Yeah sure. Well we certainly can.
Nathan: It'd be fun if you want.
Craig: [sounding disarmingly mischievous] We could do a little class here.
Nathan: I want the three of us to analyse it and then I want you [to me] to analyse it, ... if you don't mind.
Angela: Oh, ok!
Craig: [opening up my Pony Express album and seeing the CD is plain] It's so much nicer here. We had all this ugly stuff in the American version. OK should we take ... [taking out the lyric sleeve] should we take ...
Nathan: What song do you want us to do?
Craig: Do you know these songs?
Angela: [are you kidding??!!] Yeah!
Craig: What song do you want to analyse?
Angela: OK uh ...
Craig: Did you know you can tell your fortune by the lyrics?
Angela: Really?
Craig: Yeah.
Nathan: It's true.
Angela: How's that?
Craig: Well we're going to tell your fortune.
Nathan: Well it's sort of like the I-Cheng (spelling?) you know ... the I-Cheng.
Angela: [que?] No. What's that?
Craig: It's the Book of Chants.
Nathan: This Chinese ...
Craig: Ancient Chinese uh ... tongue (?) of poetry actually if you throw coins in the right way or these things called the arrow sticks [I just loved how he was demonstrating this with his hands ... he speaks wonderfully with these hand actions :)] you can ask questions and the answers are there ...
Nathan: I better not listen to your analysises
Craig: Analysisies?
Nathan: Analysisi? I don't know. And then we'll come back and we'll share.
Angela: Cool, this is fun.
Craig: OK so what, how do you want your fortune? Which one?
Angela: Uh ... Trackstar!
Craig: Ooooooh one of my very favourites [sweet grin]
Angela :)
Craig: OK "Do you love him?*Who knows ..."
Nathan: Can we do a Mind Science one?
Angela: YES.
Craig: Firstly I have to just go through and give you an analysis, and then we'll find out how it connects up to your fortune.
"Do you love him?*Who knows*Why*"
- OK that can go one of two ways: I'm asking you a question "Do you love ... " [to me, indicating Stuart] "Do you love Stuart? Do you love him?" And you're like [exasperated/indifferent tone] "Who knows". You know like you're in an argument with your girlfriend or boyfriend and it's like "Do you love this guy" and it's like "Who knows?! I don't know" and the other person is like how much it hurts when another person says that [softly] "Why??".
Or it can be like from the vantage point of the protagonist in the song who is like uh ... thinking about in his mind. He's thinking of his girlfriend loves somebody else. Like she loves this person, who the fuck knows why.
OK the way that goes to your fortune, OK - this is the important part - is ... what is going on in your love relationships right now?
[snip, snip]
Craig: Well that's what was going on in his mind. You see how it connects? See Stu and I do this all the time. [to Stu] Now you take another part of the song ... which ever part you like I'm happy to help you. You can pick the part cozyou kow the lyrics.
Stuart: Um we'll just go with "Caste the state I'm spelled in your charge"
Craig: OK this is interesting. Um [clears throat] ... "caste" ... C.A.S.T.E. that's like a ...
Stu: It's a system ...
Craig: It's a social system, right. So uh of a people of a particular caste. "Caste the state". So it's like ... you'vebeen betweitched or someone has put a spell on you. It's like a bewitching. And a lover, a potential lover bewitches you and they sort of put you into this state that's likened in Trackstar as one of the statars of society. You can imagine sort of a, I don't know what level of society it would be. I guess caste is poor, middle, upper?
Stu: Yeah ...
Craig: Are you buying any of this?
Angela: Yeah! ...
Craig: OK um ... I'm just trying to figure out, I don't know what caste it would be exactly. Um I don't know. "I'm spelled in your charge" it's like ... I'm in your charge. But that means that I am responsible for you if I'm in your charge or [to Stu] that she's responsible for me?
Stu: She's responsible for you.
Craig: OK, so if I'm in your charge you're responsible for me. So if you bewitched me, you would keep me under a spell and cast me into a caste, right. Um, but then you'd be in charge of me right. Which it sort of sounds like, well we were talking about that guy ... it sounds like you were sort of the perpetrator of this spell. I mean in the way it ended up, it sounded like he was kind of ... and what happens when you get in that kind of really wound up jealous obsessive unrealistic place, which we've all been there, it's literally like being a prisoner to a caste ... or even like a cast like [indicating iron cuffs on your hands] that you put on - I didn't even think of that ... so that's how that relates to ...
Angela: Wow, I'm impressed.
Craig: Really? Thank you.
Angela: Because a lot of people would look at these lyrics as abstract and think nothing of them but you know ... drug fucked ....
Craig: No, not at all. I know all of them actually ...
Angela: Oh wait, another one. Where's my favourite line ... [looking for "tongue kiss through the kitchen screen"]. Where are you? Oh here ...
No Rm. 9, Kentucky
Craig: No Rm. 9, Kentucky. Oh this one .. this one OK I dont' know if I'm going to do it as a reading ... as a fortune telling ... unless that's what you want me to do. But because was written more like a film. I kind of imagined it um as images in a film. So ...
"That's approval, a stamp of a knife with initials on rubber*"
So rubber stamp right. Approval. [doing the rubber stamp action thing] Right? Um ...
"A doodle of some ancient mother fucking her son"
I don't know ... that's Egyptian to me or something
Angela: It sounds very classical Greek to me.
Craig: Classical Greek.
Stu: Heiroglyphics.
Craig: Heiroglyphic.
Stu: Like you go in a cave and there's these ancient things ...
Craig: OK so there's something ancient going on ...
"I predict by 3am the pill bottle top will have come undone"
Well I mean that's ... I sort of think of this woman whose living in this hotel in Kentucky, um ... and I feel like it's maybe a love thing. To me it sort of reeks of Sam Shepherd or something like that ... You know Sam Shepherd?
Angela: [Shakes head no]
Craig: He's a playwrite, I guess. So I mean heartbreak, suicidal ...
"Tongue kiss through the kitchen screen"
is just one of those images that like made me think of there's this hotel in Maine that I used to go to for summer camp and as you'd walk through the front door in summer you'd open up this wooden screen door and there's something about looking through it and it was always dusty outside and it's just very sexy. And so that somehow just ... felt right. Just the right kind of an image.
"By 3am the pill bottle top will have come undone* She'll hadn you on long-wind, short-sigh story ..."
She's handing you a story ... babbling about something ... fucking babbling ... [starts laughing at them] something ... So I guess you're right about the lyrics [laughing]
[skim reads through the rest] So then she kills herself ... well then she OD's on these drugs. I don't know that's just creepy [laughing].
Angela: [laughing]
Craig: No, basically just the way I like to write lyrics, is so they feel like sort of like how a dream does vs the way a story does. So you can make your own associations with the image. What's this deal? [trying to fold back the cd sleeve] I've never seen this before.
[Stu and I laugh watching Craig fumbling, trying to clumsily fold the sleeve back together]
Craig: Well that's what I think is the most fun. When you can participate in the listening of the record, so it's nice to be able to pour over.
Angela: So I guess your lyrics can be analysed like that. A lot of singer-songwriters who I have come across have a real problem with discussing specific lyrics and talking about them like in that detail.
People might read too much into it.
Craig: But that's the fun of it ... That's so much part of the fun. You know when you're young, or any time, or [watching Stu trying to fold sleeve now] - Oh yeah Mr Guy he knows how to do it - And you think you know the words to a song and then you find out they're not the right words ... that's no fun. Coz your words are always better. It's fun to analyse them just doesn't matter though ...
Stu: That's why I never analyse lyrics.
Craig: That's true though.
Stu: I love Craig's lyrics but I never read them either. Somes times I do. I always enjoy playing through these things because then I find out more ...
Craig: He finds out more about me than he already knows ... and that's a LOT.
Stu: I do know a lot.
Angela: I'm trying to think of something else to ask you ... have you seen your web site?
Stu: Yeah we have one that we did.
Angela: Yeah that's right.
Stu: And there's a couple of fans' ...
Craig: There's one called About Three Dreams and it's a great, great website. And it's just made by this guy who is a fan and it's such a beautiful thing.
Angela: I was just telling Stu and Nathan how a lot of what the few of us here know about you is because Jeff came out here and talked about you a lot.
Craig: Yeah, he was a sweet guy. That's good, we appreciate it. We could give the same back (the praise).
Angela: Yes. I remember him saying on radio that "You know people think I'm good. But I'm only one person. These are like three of these guys"
[Craig laughs and grins]
Craig: [sigh] Oh Jeff [grin]. Did you guys talk about First Love, Last Rites?
Stu: Yeah.
Craig: There's a beautiful track. Really is beautiful. And he actually toured - did Nathan tell you? He played bass with Mind Science.
Angela: Yes I had heard about that.
Craig: Sad, sad, sad, sad ...
Angela: What other side projects do you have going?
Craig: Yeah there's tonne but we're trying to incorporate all the side projects into appearing as Shudder To Think. We've been doing a lot of movie soundtracks and we've been doing music for some fashion designers and we've been doing some music for television and some music for commercials and some writing music for other artists and producing other artists ... we're sort of doing a lot of things. The main other thing is films right now.
Angela: Are you branching out into more than music? I noticed you had some photos up on your site ... one of you guys had taken photos?
Craig: Yeah actually this is (taking out Mind Science sleeve) a painting that Nathan did. This is one of Nathan's paintings.
Stu: All of the paintings ...
Craig: All of the paintings are Nathan's [flipping through] and all these [taking out Pony Express sleeve again] are photos of mine.
Angela: Can you tell me what they are ...
Craig: This is ... they didn't really come out that well [first image] This one is actually my girlfriend lying in bed.
Angela: Really? (looked more like water or fire or something)
Craig: That's her face (to the right of the picture) and she has .. that's her cheek and she's facing me. And there's her leg, and another leg.
[second image] This ... now what was this? This was like some weird thing I saw in a street. There's a ladder and there was a road, I must have been double exposure on my camera because it was a street and some theatre or something so it has this weird ... this didn't come out very well either but ...
[third image] This was just a rearview mirror in a van. like that's passenger side and that's the rearview mirror.
[fourth image] This is just flower curtains, they're flowers in front of a curtain. And then this (cover) I don't know about this.
[Craig is snatched away for another interview, leaving Stu and I for a while on our own while Nathan is finishing off his interview. I try and wing some conversation in the meantime]
Angela: I'm having so much fun!
Stu: Alright!
Angela: Have you hung out much with Pearl Jam at all, have you seen them at all?
Stu: Oh yeah. We've been friends with them for a while. I mean not good friends, but acquaintances. We'll go see them when they're in town. I'm a big fan of theirs so I always go and see them. Yeah, we've gone and hung out with them. So ... it was nice that they asked us to come on tour with them.
Angela: You haven't been here before have you?
Stu: No.
Angela: How about you, do you have some side projects going?
Stu: I've been playing music with some other people recently, just one guy who... I'm doing a lot of uh kind of like folky country stuff and that's been really cool and then a couple of peopel I met througha mtuual friend are tryign to get ... it's these two guitarist singers and they're trying ot get a band togehte and I have been playing with them, just workig out bass lines for their songs, and I'm not really sure where either o those are going, but you know it's been good. Well they've (Craig and Nathan) been doing a lot of fashion shows ...
[my tape runs out side one]
[side two]
Stu: They're not writing it, they're compiling the music and like you knwo they will ahve to put together like a three minute segment that has to have all these different elements and they hae to find the themes and they can find the music out and mix it and ...
Angela: And it'd probably be week's work for three minutes worth.
Stu: Usually there's not that much time so it's very hectic and stressful and me I like to play. And I like to play a lot. And playing with other people is just giving me that outlet so that when we're not doing Shudder To Think band stuff I'm not depressed and lonely. So ...
Angela: Did Jeff's music influence Shudder To Think's music much? Did you do a lot together?
Stu: We didn't do a lot together. He definitely inspired us to um, I don't know do exactly what. But he has had to be one of the most inspirational people we ever knew. And he was more talented than anyone.
Angela: Like I don't know ... just the way Nathan was describing STT's new material earlier, to me could fit a description of Jeff's music.
Stu: I don't know. It's hard to say. I don't ... I wouldn't think so so much. We are I don't know I think we are forraging ahead into our future and kind of using what we have done in the past as a taking only the parts that we want to embellish and turning them into the new music.
Angela: I think I'm exhausted of all my questions!
Stu: OK
Angela: Um ... anything else? [I don't want to leave you guys just yet!]
How much longer ... you're going to Sydney ...
Stu: Sydney, Brisbane then Perth.
[chit chat conversation]
Angela: You have to come back and play some shows on your own.
Stu: I would have liked to play some shows of our own but the other guys. Hopefully we will.
Angela: Do you think you will? [eventually]
Stu: I really want to. It's really expensive to come down here so we'll see ... well hopefully if we sell some records from this tour and there seems to be ... if it seems like it'd worth our while to come back then ...
Angela: Yeah well I never dreamed that you guys would come down here. I guess well, initial exposure now
Stu: Yeah well it's a really good opportunity for us.
Angela: Well hopefully some of the people there at the Melbourne shows and there'll be someone who will pick it up and the music and help with air play ... in Sydney ...
Stu: Oh yeah ...
Angela: You guys have pretty mixed media responses ...
Stu: Yeah, which is alright. I'd rather have the extremes than the middle of the road.
Angela: Do you think it has any influence? I remember hearing Jeff just saying that rock critics just have no place in society and don't influence in anything at all.
Stu: Well it's tough when one person has such a large voice and it's really just one person's opinion. But I don't know ... bad press sometimes works to your advantage. When we had a bad review, a lot of times people have written in and said "what do you think you're saying?" so that's a comfort.
Angela: Well I think it takes a huge amount of arrogance on one person's part to go into a public forum and bag another person's work ...
Stu: Yeah. And soem of the press has been so bad it's been genius.
Angela: And some of the stuff I've heard has been so bad, they just totally did not get it at all.
Stu: Yeah I htink in our web page we have a good press, bad press section and it has the bad and the worst.
Angela: So do you actually read that?
Stu: I tend not to, I don't read anything about the band really. But the other guys read it and I basically get a synopsis of if it's good or bad but I don't read any of it. It just doesn't do it for me.
Angela: I guess it's kinda like superstition. If it sounds good you can believe it, if it's not, don't.
Stu: I dont' even read the good stuff. I'd rather .. I'm living my life and I don't really care what other people say about it.
Angela: I guess I can understand the view that it doesn't really say anything but I think if it turns just one person on ... to find something they otherwise wouldn't have heard about ...
Stu: I'm not saying that there's no place for it at all. It's fine. But even when you're reading the newspaper, if you're reading the front page factual article you still have to take that with a grain of salt because it's still a newspaper that's owned by some corporation and they have their own interests and the writer has their own interests and the editors have their own interests ...
Angela: Have you always been playing music?
Stu: Pretty much. Well I graduated college.
Angela: What did you graduate in?
Stu: Linguistics. But I've been pretty much been doing music since then. Craig graduated college too, Nathan didn't. Nathan did some but ... Music has been a big part of all of our lives.
Angela: I know someone in the band plays trumpets ...
Stu: Nathan.
Angela: Nathan. Do you play anything else?
Stu: Not really. A little guitar.
Angela: When did you start playing?
Stu: Uh, about when I was ... a couple of years before Shudder To Think started. Maybe like 12, 13 years or something like that.
[chit chat conversation, really boring none of you want to know, Stu reminds me to turn my walkman off]
Angela: What did you do in Melbourne?
Stu: Walked around a lot. Saw Oasis. Didn't like them. I'm not a fan of theirs. I saw You Am I but it was just wasn't .. it was a big 12000 seat and you couldn't really hear.
Angela: So I guess you've been playing these huge venues in comparison to what you've been doing back home, usually.
Stu: We're used to playing ... When we play ourselves we pull anywhere from 200 to 1000 tops. And when we've toured with other bands in the past ... we've toured with Foo Fighters and Smashing Pumpkins and Fugazi ... and even that the bigger shows were like 3000. And they were big halls so everyone was standing. So playing to 5000 ... But it's not that much different.
Angela: What's your following like back home? It's a bit hard to pick up on that vibe from here.
Stu: We have an older crowd. They're very dedicated .. we have small crowd who are extremely loyal and dedicated and love us to the end of the world and that's really great.
Angela: I was noticing fans writing in on your web site and the addresses are from everywhere, as far as Sweden and England as well.
Stu: I've got to tap into that. I've never seen any of what people have written.
Angela: Yeah well you always wonder if the actual bands read it ...
Stu: Unfortunately I haven't so far but I really want to.
Angela: Is Kevin going to be your permanent drummer from now on?
Stu: Pretty much. He couldn't while the Dambuilders were together but they've pretty much split up.
Angela: Really? :( What ... they're all doing other things I suppose.
Stu: They're all doing other stuff.
[more chit chat and Stu reminds me to turn my walkman off]
[Nathan finishes his interview and Stu is called up for another one. Nathan comes over and rejoins me]
Nathan: What do you want to talk about?
Angela: Craig was very good.
Nathan: Yes he is very good. He can talk it.
Angela: Yeah and he told me future ... and he told my past ...
Nathan: Really.
Angela: Yeah it was great.
Nathan: OK so what do you want ...
Angela: I want Rain [analysis of Does It Rain In Your Womb?]
Nathan: Oh god. OK. This is the one you want? Well ... I mean very literally, I had a dream. And this song is from something very specific. I had a dream that ... I was recording this record. And I wrote all these songs in the two weeks before we recorded this record. So it came together really quickly and nobody had heard these songs before we recorded them. So it as a very like ... it came together really fast. I had a dream ... well two things ... I had a dream that I was in the womb and that it started raining and it was very warm. And it was one of the most beautiful images and feelings that I had ever ... you know just the roof of the womb started raining.
Angela: That sounds very symbolic. Dreaming of being in the womb is meant to symbolise some sort of rebirthing experience.
Nathan: And it was just the most ... I can't imagine a more secure place or more comfortable place than that. This whole record I have to tell you I don't remember writing. Which is very sort of creepy to me. I felt that it was ... not to get asoteric .. but that it was channeled. That it came from somewhere else and I was literally just a channel for it for all the lyrics and everything else.
"Uniformly creeping toward the burn ward, we'll be blessing your birth".
I spent a lot of time in hospitals as a kid because both my parents are doctors. So I saw a lot of maternity wards and lot of burns wards and a lot of cancer wards a lot of people with trychiotomies and a lot of horrible images that have stayed with me. And yet I feel very comfortable in hospitals. And I also feel in hospitals ... have you ever been hospitalised for anything?
Angela: Birth and to have my wisdom teeth out. That's it. Very short time.
Nathan: Right. Were you on morphine or anything? Did they put you on pain killers?
Angela: No.
Nathan: I've had a couple of different things that put me in hospital. When you're there ... I'm basically a workaholic. I have this real work ethic thing like we all do in this band, that we have to work all the time. So a fantasy of mine is to get into some situation where I have to be hospitalised. And they put you in this gown, and you'll be fed drugs, and you'll be forced to not do anything. And to be brought meals. That's like a fantasy of mine, to be hospitalised for a long period of time. So these are just hospital imagery.
"When the cardio-lady clips that wire"
- that's the umbilical chord. And another image that came to mind from this dream ["Beautiful its streamers, ships and baby's eyes"] is the Titanic era. The cruise ship, and how they have streamers coming down. And then I sort of pictured umbilical chords coming down instead of streamers. Pulling back and forth, there's these umbilical chords and babies hanging down from the ship as people are standing on the harbour, waving goodbye. That sort of image from the 40's - it's a very American image. So can you picture it at all?
"Cherubim and chestnusts so that baby cries"
- that sort of gives you that Christmas vibe. I don't know quite why.
And then the rest of it is really just a love song. In my mind, in a very direct way:
"So can't you come, can't I win your hair? is thre space within your system for a new room? Are there veins that form a curtain we can crawl through. Does it rain in your womb."
"So won't you come, can I wear your stare - you are human - born in heat beneath the bug lights"
- You're in this horrible lighting. This horrible setting. This bloody, thing pops out under these really unbearably bright lights and that's how you're brought into the world. Which for me I can't imagine anything worse than you're in the womb. It's raining on you, it's so beautiful. And then you're forced out into this horribly lit room.
[Craig comes by]
Craig: Are you doing a reading?
Angela: He's doing an analysis.
Nathan: Which is so horrible. I can't imagine anything worse ...
Craig: Are you doing a fortune or an analysis.
Nathan: I'm doing an analysis because I can't do a fortune. From this place which is to me, that image - to being in the womb and being rained on, is the most comforting image you could ever have.
Craig: Totally.
Nathan: And then being spouted out covered with blood into this room that is lit in a way that no room should be lit. The "bug lights".
Craig: The bug lights - totally. But the best thing is the way [imitates] "bug lightsss" - the way you say it on the record. That's the way you say it, which is perfect because that's the sound they make.
Nathan: Yeah. And maybe this last bit is for God or I don't know. It's like this little piece of protein that got spat out on the table and it's like...
It's a horribly depressing analysis of a song. But it's basically a love song. But when we did a tour I found that I couldn't remember how to play it at all. And in fact it was Jeff that could figure it out and he knew it from memory because he was just a genius and showed me how to play it.