Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 03:52:39 -0000 From: auvenj@mailcity.com Subject: Re: FW: [lpaz-discuss] LPUS Takeover attempts in other states To: lpaz-discuss@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: lpaz-discuss@yahoogroups.com
Mike,
I spoke to Smitty this evening. He's clearly a bright and articulate guy who is very unhappy with the direction the party has taken in his state and county. The cause of the new direction so upsetting to Smitty seems to have been a combination of three factors. (1) There were people in his own state who wanted the party to go in a different direction. (2) There were individuals from out of state who apparently provided some assistance to individuals they supported within the state. (3) The LPUS apparently honored one of the people taking over the party a bogus "award" in order to assist in the takeover. Please note that my analysis of these three factors has nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with the particular direction so initiated. As a matter of fact, from Smitty's account it sounds like a very UNhealthy direction was initiated and the party in Florida is currently withering on the vine. But even if it had resulted in a great increase in liberty in the state of Florida, the question of whether or not the methods used were ethical would remain.
(1) IMHO there is nothing inherently wrong with legitimate members of the party in a state who want it to go in a different direction banding together and attempting to effect change under the bylaws of that state party. The same sort of "convention packing" charges were made as were made against Peter regarding the '99 ALP convention, but UNLIKE ALP '99 the existing bylaws in Florida were apparently followed. No evidence of _fraudulant_ recruiting was offered. I think we need to resolve one thing once and for all in this party: is recruiting your friends and supporters to come to a convention for the purposes of changing the direction of the party a legitimate approach? I say it is entirely OK, so long as fraud is not perpetrated (ie things like actually paying people to come and vote a certain way). If someone differs on this, I'd be curious to understand your reasoning.
(2) Unlike (1), IMHO individuals coming in from out of state to influence a state party's direction is a tactic of potentially dubious ethical acceptability. On the one hand, there's nothing inherently wrong with me calling up my buddy from out of state and getting him to come to the convention and tell folks I'm a great guy and they should vote for me. On the other hand, if my "buddy" is an individual of well-known stature in the national party, and we deliberately keep our pre-existing relationship a secret in order to increase the impact of his supposedly "surprise" support, I believe that would be fraudulant. The reality of what happened in Florida appears to be somewhere in between those two extremes. However, even if it was fraudulant, it has little or nothing to do with LPUS because these were individuals acting as individuals and not as representatives of LPUS (with the exception noted in #3). It is entirely unrealistic to expect LPUS to prevent its officers from attending state party conventions and voicing their opinions _as individuals_.
(3) The individuals who were taking over the Florida party were supposedly given a bogus "award" by David Bergland in his official capacity as chair of LPUS. On the surface, there is nothing wrong with the LPUS giving awards to its members and presening them at state conventions. However, if the award was truly motivated by an attempt to aid in the takeover of a state party, rather than solely the merit of the recipient, then it is indeed a fraud and an improper action by LPUS. To discern between the two will require knowledge of both the nominal reason behind this particular award and the LPUS's history of giving out such awards in the past. In other words, if the recipient did something truly extraordinary and every other person who did the same thing also got an award from LPUS, then we aren't really dealing with a "bogus" award. On the other hand, if the recipient did something fairly commonplace and most people who did the same thing did NOT get an award from LPUS, then the charge that the award was "bogus" is valid. I'd be curious to know of anyone has relevant information on LPUS history of giving awards.
Only (2) and (3) give me any ethical qualms. (2) merely reinforces the ethical cloud surrounding Cloud & the bunch. Only (3) gives pause in regards to LPUS.
I will continue digging into the other states and report what I find, if/when Liz actually responds to my message (she has not done so yet).
--Jason Auvenshine
--- In lpaz-discuss@y..., "The Haggard" <mikeh@c...> wrote: >
>
> <<>>-----Original Message-----
> <<>>From: Smitty [mailto:76543a@m...]
> <<>>Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 10:07 PM
> <<>>To: The Haggard
> <<>>Subject: Re: [lpaz-discuss] LPUS Takeover attempts in other
states > <<>>
> <<>>
> <<>>On Monday 16 July 2001 23:57, you wrote:
> <<>>> I have forwarded this message to Smitty in Florida who has
> <<>>been in the heat
> <<>>> of battle while his Party was taken over. He has very
> <<>>interesting things
> <<>>> to say about certain LNC members who were there overseeing
the event. > <<>>
> <<>>To be exact, Jim Lark, the LNC chair and Harry Browne's running
> <<>>mate Art
> <<>>Olivier. We could include a third person who serves as the LNC
> <<>>SE regional
> <<>>rep. Mike Gilson de Lemos, better known n AZ as "the lemon" ,
> <<>>who ran for
> <<>>state secretary in an election where written notice was NOT
given to > <<>>the state membership. The state chair, Lisa Bullion, did not
> <<>>care and went
> <<>>out of her way to quash any public free speech on the mattter
at the > <<>>convention. The state lp here is run by a mixture of
socialists, like > <<>>Gilson, and conservatives, like Bullion (who is now vice-chair).
> <<>>It cannot honestly be labeled as libertarian.
> <<>>>
> <<>>> Also - spend some time researching the relationships between
> <<>>Peter with
> <<>>> some of the high-mukie-mucks like Cloud Emerling and the
> <<>>Burgland gang as
> <<>>> it mirrors the same relationships they have with other
> <<>>> state-power-swappers. It is interesting that wherever the
> <<>>power swap takes
> <<>>> place some close friend of the Browne-Cloud is in the shadows
> <<>>as a close
> <<>>> advisor.
> <<>>
> <<>>Correct observation. Head in a Cloud and Bergland were at the
> <<>>convention in
> <<>>1999 and Olivier was at the convention in 2000. The persons
> <<>>Bergland and
> <<>>Cloud supported lost! It is not clear who Olivier was
> <<>>supporting as the only
> <<>>opposition any of the incumbent clique received was from me.
> <<>>At the 2001
> <<>>convention I was told that they voted to amend the bylaws so
> <<>>they are in
> <<>>now for 2 years instead of one.
> <<>>>
> <<>>> Hearsay? Yeah. But start following the trail and it may
lead you > <<>>> somewhere... you might see how we think and like it or hate
> <<>>it. But it
> <<>>> wont do to just tell you - you are going to have to walk the
same path > <<>>> before the illumination comes.
> <<>>
> <<>>Mr. Auvenshine needs his "turn in the barrel".
> <<>>Smitty
> <<>>>
> <<>>> The Haggard
> <<>>>
> <<>>> <<>>-----Original Message-----
> <<>>> <<>>From: Jason Auvenshine [mailto:auvenj@m...]
> <<>>> <<>>Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 8:31 PM
> <<>>> <<>>To: Liz and Eric Andreasen; azfreelaw@y...
> <<>>> <<>>Cc: lpaz-discuss@y...
> <<>>> <<>>Subject: [lpaz-discuss] LPUS Takeover attempts in other
states > <<>>> <<>>
> <<>>> <<>>
> <<>>> <<>>Liz,
> <<>>> <<>>
> <<>>> <<>>I have heard that Libertarian parties in other states are
being > <<>>> <<>>subjected to takeover attempts by LPUS. I would like to
> <<>>> <<>>investigate the circumstances surrounding these claims.
> <<>>> <<>>
> <<>>> <<>>I was told by John Wilde that you would be able to
furnish the > <<>>> <<>>names of contacts in the various states who can attest to
these > <<>>> <<>>shenanigans going on at the behest of LPUS. If you can
provide > <<>>> <<>>the names of such individuals and a contact method (email
or > <<>>> <<>>telephone) that would be most helpful. If the individuals
> <<>>> <<>>involved don't want to be named, could you ask them to
contact > <<>>> <<>>me via an anonymous email/remailer to auvenj@l...? They
> <<>>> <<>>can also telephone me at 520 790 5810.
> <<>>> <<>>
> <<>>> <<>>Thanks,
> <<>>> <<>>--Jason Auvenshine
> <<>>
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