Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:26:17 -0400 To: Matthew Gaylor <freematt@coil.com> From: Matthew Gaylor <freematt@coil.com> Subject: EPIC dares Larry Ellison to debate; more on national ID cards Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:04:02 -0700 To: declan@well.com, politech@politechbot.com From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> Subject: Re: FC: Oracle's Larry Ellison lobbies hard for National ID card
Has everyone but me noted that the hijackers were in the country legally and had legal identification, and that, therefore, future hijackers following the same modus operandi would have their little fascist "smart cards" on them as they committed suicide???
In other words, Mr. Ellison's proposal, if it had been in place on September 11, would not have saved ONE SINGLE LIFE. But it WOULD create a gross violation of the liberties we're currently bombing the crap out of Afghanistan to protect.
Perhaps we need to "accidentally" drop a few "smart bombs" on Silicon Valley.
Heads up, all of you cheering on Mr. Ellison since he opposes Microsoft -- anyone who goes crying to the government because he can't run a business properly will not respect any OTHER aspect of a free society, either.
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:30:16 -0400 To: declan@well.com, politech@politechbot.com From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg@epic.org> Subject: Re: FC: Oracle's Larry Ellison lobbies hard for National ID card
If he doesn't show up, we may distribute "Larry Cards."
Marc.
October 17, 2001
Mr. Larry Ellison, CEO Oracle Corporation Attn: Jessica Olson 500 Oracle Parkway Redwood Shores, CA 94065
Dear Mr. Ellison,
I am writing to invite you to a panel discussion that will be held at the National Press Club in Washington, DC on Monday, October 22 to explore the privacy implications of a national ID card, face recognition, and other systems of biometric identification. The event is sponsored by the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) and the Privacy Foundation.
We have moved quickly in the last few days to assemble a group of experts for this event. Our current participants include Privacy Foundation CTO Richard Smith, Privacy Journal Editor Robert Ellis Smith, New Republic Legal Affairs Editor Jeffrey Rosen, RAND Senior Policy Analyst John Woodward, and Sun Distinguished Engineer Whitfield Diffie. We are waiting to hear from Alan Dershowitz and Senator Feinstein. I will moderate the discussion.
I appreciate that this is late notice. Given the urgent need for public debate on these topics, I hope you will consider participating.
I can be reached at 202-483-1140.
Sincerely yours,
Marc Rotenberg Executive Director EPIC
From: "Ted Coffman" <tcoffman@fidalgo.net> To: <declan@well.com> Subject: Re: Oracle's Larry Ellison lobbies hard for National ID card
Dear Declan,
It isn't like this is the first we have heard from the Oval Office on a "one size fits all" ID.
Several years ago the Gov decided through the Department of Transportation to develop a commercial drivers license whose testing requirements would be the same across all fifty states; The CDL.
Prior to this initiative, it was very easy for a commercial driver to have more than one license from several different states at the same time, thus making it impossible to get the really bad drivers off the road through the ticketing process. Many states had some really out dated and dysfunctional testing arrangements. While this system is not without flaws, it has proven to be more useful across the board.
National ID's are not going to be that bad IF the Ellison's of the world don't try and make it something it should not be.
Sincerely,
Ted
From: adw@connectnet.com Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:37:23 -0700 To: declan@well.com Subject: "Your Paper Please" say Ashcroft and Ellison, coming soon: Your Assets please? In-Reply-To: <20011020142410.A19193@cluebot.com>
Some not so obvious reasons to object to the so called "Anti Terrorism Bill" and it's massive internal surveillance apparatus and Oracle CEO Larry Ellison's call for a National ID card.
As an attorney, one of the things that scares me the most is the Federal Government's immense power under the RICO Statutes and it's asset forfeiture provisions. This article gives a good lay summary, albeit from a source the government has mocked and demonized. I have not reviewed any of the legal recommendations nor would I endorse them without such review. I submit it for it's utility on summarizing the dangers of increased federal power under the Terrorism Bill and with a National ID. Once Ellison gets into the game, not only will they track us, but they will know exactly where to hit you where it hurts because they will be able to efficiently track all our assets even as they change form and move throughout the economy.
Under the 4th ammendment law, if they can legally observe you, anything they find can basically be used as evidence or probably cause. Under the "Terrorism Bill" the limits of who they can observe are almost non existent. Those limits that do exist are full of holes. The net effect is that the Government would be able to cast a wide enough net to look at us all. Do we want such a country where the slightest transgression or facetious remark can be used against us as a RICO predicate to charge conspiracy? Do you want your house seized because the Federal Internal Surveillance net found that your teenager is selling pot out of the basement?
Many RICO forfeitures are done without any person being charged with a crime. They take your property and make you fight to get it back. This can cost tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The burden of proof is on the party who's assets were seized. Police get to keep the booty. Talk about a perverse incentive. One caveat. This article comes from a member of the line of thought of the so called "common law patriot movement". I take no position on their ideology and do not support the fringe members tactics. One must however acknowledge that the seeds of discontent are being sown in this country. These people and the word "Patriot" have been demonized by the Federal Government. Who would have ever thought that people who objected to a massive federal power structure which has usurped it's granted powers under the Constitution would be called crazies? They may or may not have the right analysis or strategy. They do see the problem. So did the founders of our great Nation. I hope we won't let power mongers such as Ashcroft or his mignon Ellison take away from our children the chance for a life unfettered by an all seeing and every meddling government. God help America. We need it. Please help.
"Most [revolutions] have been [ended] by a subversion of that liberty [they were] intended to establish." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1784. ME 4:218, Papers 7:106
"What institution is insusceptible of abuse in wicked hands?" --Thomas Jefferson to L. H. Girardin, 1815. ME 14:270
"Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:380
Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
[...]
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