Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:40:07 -0400 To: Matthew Gaylor <freematt@coil.com> From: Matthew Gaylor <freematt@coil.com> Subject: More Comments On L. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01 Cc: "L. Neil Smith" <lneil@ezlink.com>, smith2004-discuss@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"[Note from Matthew Gaylor: Below are some selected comments on Libertarian author L. Neil Smith's Morning of Horror article.]
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[Note: Dena Bruedigam is The Libertarian Party of Ohio Director, 614-221-4876 or 614-323-3892 (cell) Libertarian Party of Ohio 35 E. Gay Street, Suite 310, Columbus, OH 43215] Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:23:28 -0400 Sender: libertarian discussion list <LDL@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU> From: Dena Lynn Bruedigam <bruedigam@COLUMBUS.RR.COM> Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01 To: LDL@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU
Does anybody really care what L. Neil Smith thinks?
Does anybody really think that we can get by just fine without police or armed forces?
Our failed foreign policy is the culprit here. Not the police, not the lack of armed citizens. Get a clue.
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Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:57:29 -0400 Sender: libertarian discussion list <LDL@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU> From: Dena Lynn Bruedigam <bruedigam@COLUMBUS.RR.COM> Subject: Re: LA. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01 To: LDL@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU [...] There's a big difference in a lot of government and no government.
I think it's obvious that we don't live in a truly libertarian society and highly unlikely that we ever will.
If my hometown were attacked like NYC was yesterday, I would be extremely grateful for the emergency services, fire fighters, and police protection provided by my local government.
Anarchist fools like L.Neil Smith who go around that we don't need such services just make Libertarians look stupid and further marginalize our party and movement, condemning us forever to the wacky fringe.
Smith should stick to writing bad sci-fi novels.
Dena
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Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:51:28 -0400 Sender: libertarian discussion list <LDL@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU> From: Dena Lynn Bruedigam <bruedigam@COLUMBUS.RR.COM> Subject: Re: LA. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01 To: LDL@LISTSERV.KENT.EDU
--- Bud McDaniel wrote: > Ask the airport if they have probable cause when they
> search you.
I personally have no problem with airlines preventing passengers to carry weapons and explosives. And I have no interest in flying on a plane where the passengers ARE allowed to carry weapons and explosives.
If you own the airline and want to allow weapons, it should certainly be your choice. But I doubt that you would have many passengers. Certainly not me.
Airport searches aren't 4th amendment violations. Airlines aren't government agencies and they have the right to choose whatever rules they want for their passengers. They also have the right to employ security to enforce them.
No one has to take a commercial flight. You can take a train or drive. Everyone knows that when they fly, certain rules apply. If you don't want to abide by the rules, don't fly -- or get your own plane.
Dena
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Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:22:05 +0200 To: "L. Neil Smith" <lneil@ez0.ezlink.com>, LINE-LIST@line.dk From: Henry Sturman <henry@sturman.net> Subject: Re: [LINE]: L. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01 Sender: <line-list@line.dk> List-Subscribe: <mailto:liberty-list-request@line.dk?subject=subscribe%20line-list>
------------------------ MAIL FROM LINE-LIST ------------------------ Dear Mr. Smith,
Your text below was posted on the European Libertarian Mailing list line-list. I do not think your message is in good taste. You don't say so explicitly, but in your message there appears to be some suggestion that perhaps the terrible terrorist acts of today were perpetrated by Americans interested in promoting a police state, or at least you seem to be suggesting that if they didn't do it themselves they will not want to find out who did it because supposedly that would not be in their interest.
Your prediction that we probably won't find out the truth is not a very good prediction. It's based on a wrongheaded type of conspiracy theory thinking prevalent among certain libertarians. Although there is perhaps a small chance your prediction is correct, doesn't it occur to you that these acts might in fact be perpetrated by Arab terrorists or whatever and that also American agents might be interested in finding them to punish them? Do you really believe that naive theory that all American politicians, federal agents, etc. are totally evil and will never act to promote truth and at least some form of justice? Not all nonlibertarians are Waco-killers.
You warn that this act will be seized upon by some to promote the police state. That is undoubtedly true and it is good to warn against that. But your way of doing it is not a good one. You're sort of giving this as the very first reaction to what happened. The first reaction should be that the people that did this are villains. And then you could add as an aside that you predict police state rights violations. That is quite different from writing an article with the theme that the essential fact about the news today is the risk of a police state. No, the essential fact is that tens of thousands of people may have been killed and that that's a terrible thing.
This may not come close to the terrorist acts states have committed in various wars throughout history. But murder is just as much murder when committed by private individuals as when committed by the state and the very first thing libertarians should do is condemn those acts just as strongly as when they condemn the state. Your suggestions that collateral deaths perpetrated by the state will be more than what has already occurred seems ludicrous to me.
It may well be that certain imperial acts of the US government motivate terrorists to commit such evil acts. But libertarians of all people should know that this still does not mean that government is directly responsible. Those who act are responsible for their own actions. If you and other libertarians persist in blaming the state for every single evil in the world, you will not only appear silly, but you will also do injustice to libertarians ideas. Today is not about government doing wrong. Today is about private criminals doing wrong. And today we, libertarians, join, or at least should join, the state in its condemnation of those private murderers. And when it's time to condemn the state we shall condemn the state again.
Yes, it is not good if politicians, and this will indeed happen, use this terrible thing as an opportunity to promote police state tactics. And when that happens libertarians should be ready to promote the protection of our remaining freedoms. But it is a similarly unpretty thing when you use this terrible thing as an opportunity to promote anti-government propaganda.
Henry Sturman
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Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 01:45:12 -0700 To: Matthew Gaylor <freematt@coil.com> From: "E.J. Totty" <echeghlon@seanet.com> Subject: Re: Comments On L. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01
>[Note from Matthew Gaylor: Below are a few responses that I
>received after I sent Neil's thoughts on this mornings attacks to my
>world wide mailing list, Freematt's Alerts (Multiple thousands of
>subscribers).]
Matt,
An interesting set of replies.
I rather liked L. Neil's commentary. At least it had a sense of the impending. So, okay, maybe he did plug his forthcoming book. Who cares, one way or the other? The important point was in the first paragraph. If a person didn't catch THAT point, then they never will catch any point.
And, if as WalkerBill@aol.com points out, that the salient facts concerning the Lusitania surfaced after 50 years, what good did that do for someone who didn't live to hear those 'facts'? The first paragraph is THE salient point to grasp, for now and for the foreseeable future.
It might also come as a surprise that I have never read any of Smith's books. It's not for want of money, or inopportune ability to read them. I love science fiction, but I in my pursuit of other interests -- like learning to play the Great Highland Pipes (Scot War Pipes), and reading as much philosophical material as I can, catching up on history, and not to mention living life it self, science fiction must -- once again, wait until one of the prime interests is quenched.
I looked at the news stories today, as though through a telescope. What happened might well have been a trillion miles away; and it might well have been the next town over.
Smith is absolutely correct: "Life isn't as predictably pleasant as fiction. Happy endings are few and far between. But it's important to act swiftly if we're to preserve anything resembling the freedom that made this civilization great."
Allow me to add: Anything less on the part of anyone considering him or herself a Libertarian, would be criminal.
-- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Let the people think they govern and they will be governed. -- WILLIAM PENN (1693) =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*=
ET
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From: "Burke, Thomas G." <thomas_g_burke@XXXXXXX> To: "'freematt@coil.com'" <freematt@coil.com> Subject: L. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01 - looks like I have to explain myself... Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:04:17 -0400
> To everyone else who got this - Todd is a good friend of mine from the
> MIlitary. He was myt room-mate for a while while we were stationed in
> Germany. We served together in the Persian Gulf War. Many of you (& him)
> are criticizing me & Neil Smith. Todd has sent me a letter much more
> eloquent than most who have flamed me. I am putting some comments to
> Todd's letter, to explain what I believe Neil meant, & why I sent it out.
> You may still flame me, but I believe they were points we all need to
> consider, especially as the next few week/months come to pass. No, I'm
> not a paranoid schizo, but while I generally trust our Gov't, I know there
> are many in it who try to bend it to their own benefit - some who are
> willing to sell us all out in order to gain a little more power. I know
> this, as I have met some of them personally. If you have more specific
> questions, ask them... I'm certainly not trying t opiss anyone off, just
> trying to make us (collectively) think about the consequences of anything
> we may do.
>
> Todd,
> Comments in-line...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Todd Winkelman [SMTP:afwink@xxx.xxx ]
> Sent:Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:41 PM
> To:Burke, Thomas G.
> Subject:Re: L. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01
>
> Just who is this guy and what exactly is he trying to say? Is he
> trying to say that we will never find out who is responsible for this
> atrocity and that proper justice will never be taken? Is he trying to say
> that there will be some sort of government cover-up, or that our
> government
> is even in some way responsible for what happened?
>
> [Burke, Thomas G.] How many terrorists have we ever caught after the
> fact? 2, 4? Not many. There are many (myself included) who believe that
> there were cover-ups in OK - High-ranking AF bomb-damage experts believe
> that McVeigh's truck couldn't have done the damage it's claimed that it
> did. Early reports out of there included satchel charges inside the ATF
> facility in that building. The authorities were called to the cime scene
> minutes before the explosion occurred. All these things are well
> documented. I'm not saying McVeigh didn't do it - I'm saying that I (and
> others) believe that others (who had something to gain - politically, or
> whatever) were involved & that McVeigh was their patsy.
>
> As far as I'm concerned the idiot that wrote this paper has seen too
> many poorly written Hollywood films where the dumb trigger happy hick is
> given a weapon. He hasn't considered the fact that 99.9% of the men and
> women in the army (and the rest of the armed forces) DO have an I.Q.
> higher
> than the standard potato.
>
> [Burke, Thomas G.] What he's saying, is that we can get ourselves all
> riled up - in DC, it _IS_ martial law right now. National Guard on major
> corners, etc. It's not that people are trigger-happy (although some are
> screaming for blood), it's that we have a bunch of young, tense, scared
> people (we were them once - remember going to Bahrain?) who are probably a
> little jumpy after yesterday's happenings. He is cautioning us (and them)
> to be careful, and to think with a reasoned head, and not get excited, as
> surely innocents will come to harm if we do.
>
> If this guy really thinks that complete martial law will come into
> effect because of this incident, he has absolutely no faith in the
> Constitution, or the Government of the United States. And for that
> matter,
> how does he think that this will shut down the Internet? Were the plans
> to
> do this act coordinated over the net? Did they E-mail each other to make
> sure that their watches were synchronized?
> [Burke, Thomas G.] That's not his point. His point is that we have to be
> careful not to step on the Constitution. He wants you to be angry about
> what he says, to ensure that you thikn about it & keep it from happening.
> There are several factions in congress who have been screaming for
> limitations on the press (1s am.), Control of privately owned firearms
> (2nd am.), the terrorism act (violates 4th & 10th am.), control of the
> internet (again, 1st am.), face recognition (privacy in general), etc.
> What he is saying is that we need to be on guard against these particular
> factions, as they will use this as a perfect example to get these &
> similar measures pushed through.
>
> And I really don't think Rush Limbaugh would support shutting down the
> Internet, whatever the reason.
> [Burke, Thomas G.] No, he wouldn't... He may well be playing the part of
> the cheerleader for the above, though, but I don't know... I don't listen
> to his show.
>
> As I sit on stand-by, ready to help dole out the so-deserved justice
> the
> the bastards that destroyed the World Trade Center, and other sites in the
> U.S., all I can be is pissed off at the Son-of -Bitch that could write
> such
> a story. Unlike him, I do trust our government. I do have faith in our
> elected leaders to do the right thing. If that FUCKER doesn't realize how
> good he's got it right now, tell him to go live in North Korea, or some
> other Communist country where he'll really find out how much the news is
> suppressed.
>
> [Burke, Thomas G.] See what I said in the opening paragraph to you &
> everyone else... The founding father's never intended for us to trust the
> gov't. In fact, they intended for us to _distrust_ the gov't. While many
> (most?) have the good of the Country in mind, I believe that most have
> never read the Constitution they have sworn to protect & uphold. I am
> sure of this, as I _have_ read the entire thing. He's pointing out that
> there are those representatives that will see this as a way to push an
> agenda. They will make proposals that may seem sensible in light of this
> tragedy and others, who are well-meaning but don't no better will go
> along, possibly degrading our civil liberties. I have heard several on
> the radio & TV saying these things, on the way to work this morning....
>
> I do agree with him on on thing. Life is not as "Predictably Pleasant"
> as fiction. Maybe he's the one that needs to get out of his fantasy world
> and see life as it really is!
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Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:34:22 -0600 From: "Ted Dunn" <TDUNN@state.wy.us> To: <freematt@coil.com> Subject: Re: Comments On L. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01
Thank you for circulating the comments, L. Neil Smith appears to be "fifth columnist" trying to undermine American resolve. He is therefore an ally of terrorists and an enemy of this country.
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To: freematt@coil.com Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:17:46 -0700 Subject: Re: Comments On L. Neil Smith On Morning of Horror 9-11-01 From: "2nd. Amend" <d-walker@juno.com>
One of our PRO members was in New York two blocks away from the World Trade Towers. He made it to the Chase manhattan Bank and made it through the door. He said he got out of New York and he would send more later.
After each act of terrorism on US soil, many legislators want to infringe on our rights so they can protect us better. Especially evident after the Oklahoma bombing. We should be very concerned about what the Kennedy's, Schumer's and Clinton's will try to do to the Bill of Rights in their effort to "protect" us.
Dennis Walker NATO Doctrine in defense of the Second Amendment www.peoplesrights.org Peoples Rights Organization is Ohio's most active grassroots group in the fields of Education, Legislation and Litigation.
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Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:13:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "John McAlister" <source@columbus.rr.com> To: <freematt@coil.com> Subject: Feedback
I must live my life intelligently, logically and with a sense of purpose AND with a sense that the world is mad.
John
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/