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Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:09:55 -0500
To: Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>
From: Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>
Subject: Comments On Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
<p>
[Note from Matt: Dave Farber is The Alfred Fitler Moore Professor of
Telecommunication Systems in the School of Engineering and Applied
Sciences and Professor of Business and Public Policy at the Wharton
School and the recent chief technologist for the Federal
Communications Commission.]
<p>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:06:25 -0500
To: Declan McCullagh <<a href="mailto:declan@well.com">declan@well.com</a>>, Lizard <<a href="mailto:lizard@mrlizard.com">lizard@mrlizard.com</a>>,
Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>, Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>
From: David Farber <<a href="mailto:dave@farber.net">dave@farber.net</a>>
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
Cc: Nadine Strossen <<a href="mailto:nstrossen@aclu.org">nstrossen@aclu.org</a>>,Barry Steinhardt
<<a href="mailto:BSteinhardt@aclu.org">BSteinhardt@aclu.org</a>>, <a href="mailto:thesman@post-dispatch.com">thesman@post-dispatch.com</a>,
<a href="mailto:farber@cis.upenn.edu">farber@cis.upenn.edu</a> (Dave Farber), Jim Warren <<a href="mailto:jwarren@well.com">jwarren@well.com</a>>
<p>
From science web
<p>
Starting after World War II as a way of treating war neuroses,
psychiatrists often used Sodium Pentothal as part of narcotherapy, a
drug treatment that is comparable to hypnosis. A psychiatrist would
administer a very small dose of the drug (a dose too small to produce
unconsciousness), causing the patient's heart rate to slow, relieving
tension and anxiety and producing a state of complete relaxation. The
idea behind narcotherapy was to make the patient more susceptible to
suggestion than normal, allowing the psychiatrist to uncover
repressed feelings or memories. Since hypnosis only works on about
20% of the population, the use of sedatives as a part of narcotherapy
(including Sodium Pentothal, Sodium Amytal and Scopalamine, all
classified as "hypnotics") was therefore considered a good
alternative.
<p>
Sodium Pentothal received the nickname "Truth Serum" because its
effects, guided by the psychiatrist in therapy sessions, caused the
patient to become very communicative, verbalizing thoughts easily
without inhibition. While under the effect of the drug, however, the
patient may lose his inhibitions, but he does not lose self-control
(just as in hypnosis: a person can't be hypnotized into doing
something he doesn't want to do, or is unnatural to him, like robbing
a bank). For that reason, a patient will not tell the truth if he
chooses not to. It's not like those scenes from old TV shows, where
the guy gets injected with Sodium Pentothal and, after an enormous
internal struggle, is forced to speak the truth; Sodium Pentothal as
a way of determining the truth depends entirely on the willingness of
the patient.
<p>
###
<p>
[Note from Matt: Charles Platt is senior writer at WIRED Magazine.]
<p>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:03:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Platt <<a href="mailto:cp@panix.com">cp@panix.com</a>>
To: Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>
Cc: Nadine Strossen <<a href="mailto:nstrossen@aclu.org">nstrossen@aclu.org</a>>,
Barry Steinhardt <<a href="mailto:BSteinhardt@aclu.org">BSteinhardt@aclu.org</a>>, <<a href="mailto:thesman@post-dispatch.com">thesman@post-dispatch.com</a>>,
Dave Farber <<a href="mailto:farber@cis.upenn.edu">farber@cis.upenn.edu</a>>, Declan McCullagh <<a href="mailto:declan@well.com">declan@well.com</a>>,
Jim Warren <<a href="mailto:jwarren@well.com">jwarren@well.com</a>>
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
<p>
As the ACLU has said so often, the answer to offensive speech is to allow
more speech. This must apply to Dershowitz, as to any other speaker.
<p>
I suggest that the correct response to Dershowitz's "torture comment"
(assuming it was accurately quoted) would not be to exclude him in any way
but to circulate a prompt and terse message emphasizing that no one at
ACLU has any sympathy for his point of view. I hope I will read such a
statement in the near future.
<p>
###
<p>
[Note from Matt: Phill is a British physicist living and working in
the Boston area who was on the original development team at CERN in
Geneva for the World Wide Web. Phill is also the chief scientist for
Verisign.]
<p>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 04:42:30 -0500
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <<a href="mailto:hallam@AI.MIT.EDU">hallam@AI.MIT.EDU</a>>
To: Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
<p>
Dershowitz can demand what he likes. The US has signed international
conventions that make torture illegal. Use of torture is contrary
to the US consitution.
<p>
UK law does not recognize sovereign immunity in cases of torture. As
a result Pinochet, Kissinger and many members of Mossad have had to
cancel plans to visit the UK on holiday.
<p>
Dershowitz does not appear to be aware that the tactics of terrorism
are specifically to invite disproportionate reaction.
<p>
Bin Laden's strategy does not make any sense in military terms. The
Taleban were already facing difficulty keeping control in the face of
a largely self inflicted famine.
<p>
Bin Laden's strategy does have some logic in purely political terms.
The gamble being that the US would mount some form of attack against
afghanistan that fell short of complete anihilation of the regime.
The attack would allow Bin Laden to make a call for muslim unity
against the infidel crusaders and thus the revolution would spread to
Pakistan and Saudi.
<p>
There are plenty of holes in Bin Laden's scheme, not least the fact that
far from uniting the islamic world behind him, his is a noisy minority
view. Most people know that there is a vast gulf between his utopian
rhetoric and the miserable state his Taleban have created.
<p>
But use of torture is sure means of causing people to think irrationally.
In pure military terms Dershowitz's proposal makes no sense whatsoever.
<p>
<p>
Phill
<p>
###
<p>
<p>
[Note from Matt: Frank Jacoby is an engineer in Columbus, OH]
<p>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:15:41 -0500 (EST)
From: bjacoby <<a href="mailto:bjacoby@NetWalk.com">bjacoby@NetWalk.com</a>>
X-Sender: <<a href="mailto:bjacoby@user">bjacoby@user</a>>
To: Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>
cc: Nadine Strossen <<a href="mailto:nstrossen@aclu.org">nstrossen@aclu.org</a>>,
Barry Steinhardt <<a href="mailto:BSteinhardt@aclu.org">BSteinhardt@aclu.org</a>>, <<a href="mailto:thesman@post-dispatch.com">thesman@post-dispatch.com</a>>,
Dave Farber <<a href="mailto:farber@cis.upenn.edu">farber@cis.upenn.edu</a>>, Declan McCullagh <<a href="mailto:declan@well.com">declan@well.com</a>>,
Jim Warren <<a href="mailto:jwarren@well.com">jwarren@well.com</a>>
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
<p>
Gosh let the national debate begin! I'll start...
<p>
Let's see, under the new "anti-terrorist" bill I'd say that
torture should be permissible for any person who is a "terrorist"!
I believe that would be anyone the attorney general says is
a "terrorist". In that case, a warrant could be issued by a
judge...of course that could be ANY judge including magistrates
and even those on an appeals court. In other words, if just
ONE judge can be found willing to sign torture warrants, then
"loosening their tongues with a taste of the rack" would
be completely legal. Right? I think I've got the spirit of
the new laws correct here...
<p>
Personally I'd like to know more about just how Dershowitz
came up with this plan...I'll bet "ve haf vays of making
him talk!"
<p>
###
<p>
[Note from Matt: Susan Gellman is an attorney in private practice in
Columbus, OH and ACLU member.]
<p>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:55:10 -0500
To: Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>, Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>
From: Susan Gellman <<a href="mailto:gellman@wgglaw.com">gellman@wgglaw.com</a>>
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
Cc: Nadine Strossen <<a href="mailto:nstrossen@aclu.org">nstrossen@aclu.org</a>>,
Barry Steinhardt <<a href="mailto:BSteinhardt@aclu.org">BSteinhardt@aclu.org</a>>, <a href="mailto:thesman@post-dispatch.com">thesman@post-dispatch.com</a>,
<a href="mailto:farber@cis.upenn.edu">farber@cis.upenn.edu</a> (Dave Farber), Declan McCullagh <<a href="mailto:declan@well.com">declan@well.com</a>>,
Jim Warren <<a href="mailto:jwarren@well.com">jwarren@well.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:alder@law.harvard.edu">alder@law.harvard.edu</a>
<p>
Dear Mr. Gaylor:
<p>
I disagree with your recommendation that the ACLU expel Professor
Dershowitz. While any of us may disagree, even vehemently, with any
opinion he or any ACLU member espouses (and most of us have, from time to
time, disagreed fundamentally with ACLU positions, let alone statements by
a single member), it would seem curiously contrary to our core value of
freedom of speech and belief, and to the protection thereof, in our
government to adopt the opposite position within our organization by
expelling him for expressing his views. Although the Constitution, which
of course does not bind the ACLU, is the guarantor of those rights in
American society, our respect for those rights does not depend upon the
fact that they happen to be given constitutional ink. To the contrary, we
agree that the rights to disagree, to speak, and to publish are properly
protected from government interference because they are precious.
<p>
There is and should be a wide range of opinion within our membership upon
the controversial issues we address. The ACLU need not endorse any of
those opinions, and indeed may strenuously denounce them. But within a
private organization as within a constitutional democracy, the remedy for
speech is not punishment, but more speech.
<p>
Susan Gellman
<p>
###
<p>
[Note from Matt: Steve Imparl is an attorney in Chicago who is the
author of "Internet Law: The Complete Guide".]
<p>
From: <a href="mailto:SImparl@aol.com">SImparl@aol.com</a>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:27:35 EST
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
To: <a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>
<p>
Dershowitz is an idiot. That he is a "professor" says volumes about
the sorry state of higher education in America today.
<p>
Steve
<p>
###
<p>
[Note from Matt: Lizard is the non de plume of a writer and computer
programer in Silicon Valley.]
<p>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 06:45:12 -0800
To: Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>, Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>
From: Lizard <<a href="mailto:lizard@mrlizard.com">lizard@mrlizard.com</a>>
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
Cc: Nadine Strossen <<a href="mailto:nstrossen@aclu.org">nstrossen@aclu.org</a>>,
Barry Steinhardt <<a href="mailto:BSteinhardt@aclu.org">BSteinhardt@aclu.org</a>>, <a href="mailto:thesman@post-dispatch.com">thesman@post-dispatch.com</a>,
<a href="mailto:farber@cis.upenn.edu">farber@cis.upenn.edu</a> (Dave Farber), Declan McCullagh <<a href="mailto:declan@well.com">declan@well.com</a>>,
Jim Warren <<a href="mailto:jwarren@well.com">jwarren@well.com</a>>
<p>
Is information gleaned under torture even reliable? I somehow doubt
it. People being tortured will say whatever they think will get the
torture to stop. If the torturers seem to want to hear that Fred was
responsible for a crime, the victim being tortured will happily
implicate Fred.
<p>
###
<p>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:21:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Robin Broadhead <<a href="mailto:lyricalsensual@yahoo.com">lyricalsensual@yahoo.com</a>>
Subject: Re: [smith2004-discuss] Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
To: <a href="mailto:smith2004-discuss@yahoogroups.com">smith2004-discuss@yahoogroups.com</a>, Matthew Gaylor <<a href="mailto:freematt@coil.com">freematt@coil.com</a>>
Cc: Nadine Strossen <<a href="mailto:nstrossen@aclu.org">nstrossen@aclu.org</a>>,Barry Steinhardt
<<a href="mailto:BSteinhardt@aclu.org">BSteinhardt@aclu.org</a>>, <a href="mailto:thesman@post-dispatch.com">thesman@post-dispatch.com</a>,
Dave Farber <<a href="mailto:farber@cis.upenn.edu">farber@cis.upenn.edu</a>>, Declan McCullagh <<a href="mailto:declan@well.com">declan@well.com</a>>,
Jim Warren <<a href="mailto:jwarren@well.com">jwarren@well.com</a>>
<p>
I long ago gave up on Alan Dershowitz.
<p>
While I admire his mind, and admire his free speech
stances, he is very selective on the REST of the Bill
of Rights. In that sense he is typical ACLU.
<p>
The ACLU only backs certain cause celebres of its own
choosing. They make a VERY imperfect alliance
partner.
<p>
Dershowitz supporting torture as a means to obtain
information? That is very shocking to me.
<p>
Frankly, torture is a terrible tool anyway to extract
information. The founder of Delta Force agrees with
me on this. The amount of crap that is spewed out
during the session ALL has to be sifted through,
increasing your workload -- and besides, torture is
simply not libertarian. Its *wrong*.
<p>
Alan
<p>
###
<p>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:05:59 -0600
Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
<<a href="mailto:CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM">CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM</a>>
Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
<<a href="mailto:CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM">CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM</a>>
From: "William T. Quick" <<a href="mailto:quick@ICON-STL.NET">quick@ICON-STL.NET</a>>
Organization: Law Offices of William T. Quick
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
To: <a href="mailto:CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM">CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM</a>
<p>
On 6 Nov 01, at 4:42, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
<p>
> But use of torture is sure means of causing people to think irrationally.<br>
> In pure military terms Dershowitz's proposal makes no sense whatsoever.<br>
<p>
I was present for Professor Dershowitz's remarks. He used the
"ticking bomb" hypothetical to make torture and chemical
pursuasion seem like plausible and justifiable means for obtaining
needed information: "Suppose you have been told that your loved
one has been buried alive in a shallow grave with a 2-hour air
supply. Would anyone here not use torture, if all else failed, to find
out where the loved one is buried?" Of course, any information
obtained this way could not be used in a criminal prosecution of
the tortured speaker, he assured us. He seemed to be arguing
that while we may condemn torture as a violation of international
law and human rights generally, the unthinkable could certainly
happen...there could be a scenario where the use of torture by the
authorities is demanded by the urgency of the situation and the
lives that would otherwise be lost, and therefore we need to have a
public debate at this time to decide whether and when such means
could be justifiably used. He failed to mention that one effect of
such a debate would be to make the previously unthinkable into
something almost palatable.
<p>
It certainly seems like Dershowitz is going off the deep end. It's
kind of funny that in the first chapter of his latest book, "Letters to
a Young Lawyer", he talks about picking your legal heroes
carefully, because those lawyers and judges he held in highest
esteem as a young man (Darrow, Marshall, Brennan and Douglas,
to name a few) all wound up having feet of clay, which he found
very disillusioning. Indeed.
<p>
-Bill
<p>
William T. Quick
Attorney at Law
7751 Carondelet Ave., Suite 403
St. Louis, MO 63105
Phone: 314-862-5941
Fax: 314-863-7779
E-mail: <a href="mailto:quick@icon-stl.net">quick@icon-stl.net</a>
<p>
###
<p>
[Note from Matt: Jonathan is a long time subscriber to Freematt's
Alerts from Brooklyn, NYC who publishes the Ethical Spectacle online
at <<a href="http://www.spectacle.org>.">http://www.spectacle.org>.</a>
<p>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:45:15 -0500
Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
<<a href="mailto:CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM">CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM</a>>
Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications
<<a href="mailto:CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM">CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM</a>>
From: Jonathan Wallace <<a href="mailto:jw@BWAY.NET">jw@BWAY.NET</a>>
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz Suggests Torture Warrants
To: <a href="mailto:CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM">CYBERIA-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM</a>
<p>
I took Dershowitz' criminal law class circa 1977 or 1978, before he was
quite this well-known. He was much more of a showman than an intellectual.
One day he brought a Cambridge policeman to class, ostensibly to talk about
police work, then surprised the officer by demanding "Frisk me!" Dersh was
so insistent that the man finally complied, very gingerly. Once he had
finished, Dershowitz started pulling toy guns, knives, baggies of oregano,
etc from every pocket, shouting "You missed this! and this!" It was
entertaining but the fact that a policeman was too respectful of a Harvard
professor to subject him to a full search taught us nothing about criminal
law.
<p>
After the last class before Christmas break we chased Dershowitz through the
quad, pelting him with snowballs. A fond memory.
<p>
###
<p>
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