Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:26:35 -0400 To: Matthew Gaylor <freematt@coil.com> From: Matthew Gaylor <freematt@coil.com> Subject: President Bush on national ID cards; followups to European use Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:29:48 -0400 To: politech@politechbot.com From: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> Subject: FC: President Bush on national ID cards; followups to European use X-URL: Politech is at http://www.politechbot.com/ X-Author: Declan McCullagh is at http://www.mccullagh.org/ X-News-Site: Cluebot is at http://www.cluebot.com/
See also:
"President Bush Nixes National ID Card" http://www.wartimeliberty.com/article.pl?sid=01/09/27/1739211&mode=thread
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:09:10 +1000 To: declan@well.com From: Roger Clarke <Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au> Subject: Re: FC: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
>Australia had a fight about this some few years ago (the ID card fans lost):
>http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/
Re the Australia Card scheme, see also:
Just Another Piece of Plastic for your Wallet: The 'Australia Card' Scheme http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/OzCard.html Prometheus 5,1 (June 1987). Republished in Computers & Society 18,1 (January 1988), together with an important Addendum, published in Computers & Society 18,3 (July 1988)
Re inhabitant registration schemes, see also:
Human Identification in Information Systems: Management Challenges and Public Policy Issues http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/HumanID.html
Chip-Based ID: Promise and Peril http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/IDCards97.html
-- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd, 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/
Visiting Fellow Department of Computer Science The Australian National University Canberra ACT 0200 AUSTRALIA Information Sciences Building Room 211 Tel: +61 2 6125 3666
From: PRGormley@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:40:55 EDT Subject: Re: FC: More on national ID card and use in western Europe To: declan@well.com
Not that I am an advocate of national ID Cards, as a criminal defense attorney my knee-jerk response would be against them - but I seriously question (bearing in mind my stated position) what we would have left to lose in terms of personal liberties.
We're already widely tracked by SSN despite FCRA/GLB acts, we already have passports - aren't we already on a national ID system?
- Paul Gormley
From: "Trei, Peter" <ptrei@rsasecurity.com> To: "'declan@well.com'" <declan@well.com>, "'joseg@guardiasociados.com'" <joseg@guardiasociados.com> Subject: RE: More on national ID card and use in western Europe Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:43:15 -0400
> Jose M Guardia <joseg@guardiasociados.com> writes:
>
> Hi,
>
> In fact, a mandatory ID is *current* policy all over Western Europe. I'm
> not implying it should be also in the US, I just wanted to clarify the
> fact
> that it's something "normal" in democratic countries as well.
>
> Best
>
> Jose
>
This is utter nonsense. None of the following Western European countries require ID cards: Britain, Ireland, Danmark, Norway, Finland, or Sweden.WE Countries which do require them include Germany, France Belgium, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain.
Outside, WE, none of the following require them: US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia
(none of the lists above are exhaustive)
Source: http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/idcard_faq.html (this is a good source, and shows how some countries have successfully prevented governments from imposing ID cards.)
If nations are going to insist on ID cards, they should do them in an efficient way; tattoo each citizen's name and number on their forearm. This method is tried and tested, and found very effective: he or she cannot lose, forget, or lie about their ID.
Peter Trei
From: Puzzleelement@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:44:16 EDT Subject: Fwd: National ID card - response from German scientist/web publisher To: declan@well.com
Return-Path: <oliver@dreissigacker.net> References: <e5.c97753b.28e0a7ab@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:48:47 +0200 To: Puzzleelement@aol.com From: "Dre." <oliver@dreissigacker.net> Subject: Re: National ID card Cc: nancyjoyalvarez@hotmail.com, MBottis@aol.com, FloridaDemocrat@yahoogroups.com, Csinger7373@aol.com, SGOODMANTV@aol.com, VINLINE@aol.com, cseiersen@trammellcrow.com, CitizensForLegitimateGovernment@yahoogroups.com, fight-the-right@yahoogroups.com, fringefolk@yahoogroups.com, Dem-FL@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version)
Also sprach Puzzleelement@aol.com um 11:13 Uhr -0400 am 24.09.2001:
>Matt Drudge writes:
>http://www.drudgereport.com/id.htm
>>A proposal for the creation of a national ID card was presented to
>>President Bush in recent days, top government sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.
>
>http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/ellsn092301.htm
>>``We need a national ID card with our photograph and thumbprint digitized
>>and embedded in the ID card,'' Ellison said in an interview Friday night
>>on the evening news of KPIX-TV in San Francisco.
>>``We need a database behind that, so when you're walking into an airport
>>and you say that you are Larry Ellison, you take that card and put it in a
>>reader and you put your thumb down and that system confirms that this is
>>Larry Ellison,'' he said. [...]
>>``We're quite willing to provide the software for this absolutely free,''
>>he said.
>
>----
>
>(...)
>
>Dear Declan,
>
>According to Drudge, Larry Ellison is now offering to donate the technology
>to create a national ID card. What else would we expect from a firm that
>was created by the CIA:
>
>http://beta.kpix.com/news/scripts/fri5pm.htm#77tz:_Ellison
>
>(...)
C'mon my dear American friends, is that your greatest worry?
In Europe, national ID cards are common in every country since at least 50 years now, and there have never been any privacy problems. Even not after the computer-readable IDs were introduced some 15 years ago which caused a lot of resistance on sides of privacy advocates.
There is much more privacy-relevant activities going on, let me tell you this as a citizen that has been spied out by you my friends and allies since my birth (Hi Langley! Hi Fort Mead!).
And the security aspect of the IDs? Do you really think a Florida Highway Patrol knows how a true Iowa drivers license looks like? Or a NY cop can tell if he checks an Omaha license?
To base ID'ing on drivers licenses that can be counterfeit by any skillful 5th-grader is ridiculous! Together with the fact, that after a move from town A to city B, no-one is required to get registered with the local authorities (as is in Europe), it is nowhere so easy for an extremist / militant / terrorist to become invisible...!
[In Germany, when you move and sign a rent-contract with your new landlord or buy a house, you have to sign a form that your landlord has to forward to the local authorities. You're requested to see the local administration office near you and either apply for a new ID (that lists your residential address) or get an address sticker as a patch for the old ID which then gets an official stamp. Of course, that didn't prevent some of the WTC terrorists to rent apartments in Hamburg, simply because they had absolutely no criminal history, but at least the police is able to quickly follow the traces and ID their contacts and helpers...]
BTW, we too have a discussion going on, wether the IDs should include finger prints, as a "unique mean of ID". But I find the argumentation very lame: if anyone can manage to counterfeit those sophisticated ID cards, then including the right fingerprint will certainly be no obstacle. But I guess it'll rather be dropped because of the costs to issue new IDs for 110 M Germans or more than a half billion EU-Europeans (Easterners and Russians not counted)
One might have to think this over in the age of biometric-ID'ing coming up, but that's probably beyond the scope of discussion here... (correct me if I'm wrong!)
best regards
Dre.
p.s. beware of the WTC-vote virus that'll wipe out your hard drive! for details, please see the below mentioned web site!
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:10:28 +0200 To: declan@well.com From: Tor Fosheim <tfosheim@start.no> Subject: Re: FC: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
Declan,
This needs further clarification. Most EU countries have national ID cards - passports - but few demand that their citizens carry them at all times. It is impossible in any modernized nation to get by without som form of identification, but that does not mean that states are imposing them on their citizens or that police can stop any person on the street and demand to see their papers. This is certainly not the case in european nations, with one exception that I know of: In France they have enacted laws for immigration (in the mid-nineties i believe), where any person of foreign "appearance" - african or asian - can be asked for their ID at any time. This is the only law I know of that demands any part of the populace to carry ID cards and produce them to authorities, and it was not without protest that it came to life.
In Britain they have been debating national ID cards for ages, and there seems to be a consensus against them. It remains to be seen wether events of late will change that, but it just might.
So, there seems to be some confusion about ID-papers and the laws that govern them. We all have ID papers, but not the laws that allow them to be checked by police unless they have a court order, suspiscion of a crime or something similar.
In any case, no european country has anything even close to Ellisons proposed smart-cards with fingerprints or DNA strings programmed into them that can be checked against a national database. It is highly unlikely that it will ever happen either. So is a common EU ID-card, at least for next ten years or so.
Regards,
Tor Fosheim, Oslo
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:50:12 +0100 To: declan@well.com, Jose M Guardia <joseg@guardiasociados.com> From: Tim Dedopulos <tim@midnight.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: FC: More on national ID card and use in western Europe
Hi Declan, Jose
>In fact, a mandatory ID is *current* policy all over Western Europe.
>I'm not implying it should be also in the US, I just wanted to
>clarify the fact that it's something "normal" in democratic
>countries as well.
... except for the UK. At least, until now. As this link shows, http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1559000/1559245.stm the idea isn't going down too well, but the government's majority in parliament is huge, and there's no stopping it. It has been suggested that UK ID cards would include photo, current address, date of birth, SSN, and, strangely, details of entitlement to social security benefits -- so any police officer stopping a Brit in the street would immediately be able to see whether he was on Social or not, which seems likely to be used to make prejudicial assessments. -- Imagine there were two of you. Which one would win?
From: John Armitage <john.armitage@unn.ac.uk> To: "'declan@well.com'" <declan@well.com> Subject: RE: More on national ID card and use in western Europe Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:49:42 +0100
Hi Declan Just to correct your last correspondent who seems to believe that ID cards are current policy in Europe: They aren't. In fact, there is likely to be one hell of a fight over it in the UK. See below for a taste from today's Guardian.
John
Identity cardshttp://politics.guardian.co.uk/attacks/story/0,1320,557630,00.html
Un-British or vital? The ID debate
THE GUARDIAN
As introduction becomes more likely, opinions differ on both ethical and practical grounds
Alan Travis, home affairs editor Tuesday September 25, 2001 The Guardian
David Blunkett's suggestion that the introduction of compulsory identity cards in Britain could be necessary as part of the fight against terrorism yesterday stirred a range of criticism - from rightwing libertarians who claimed it would be "un-British", to those who warned the move would be ineffective and expensive.
However, an opinion poll at the weekend showed that 86% of people supported some form of ID card. The government was seriously considering their introduction, Mr Blunkett said.
[...]
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:52:34 -0400 From: Tom BOURKE <bourke_tm@mailhub3.davork.com> Subject: Re: FC: More on national ID card and use in western Europe To: declan@well.com
Declan,
There are no identity cards in Ireland or the UK... yet...
Although I suspect the UK will try and bring them in soon... http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/21849.html
Tom (From the UK, with his wife from Ireland) NJ, USA
From: "Singleton, Norman" <Norman.Singleton@mail.house.gov> To: declan@well.com Subject: RE: More on national ID card and use in western Europe Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:41:47 -0400
>In fact, a mandatory ID is *current* policy all over Western Europe. I'm
>not implying it should be also in the US, I just wanted to clarify the fact
>that it's something "normal" in democratic countries as well.
Another reminder that democratic does not equal free.
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