Session Start: Tue May 26 18:40:57 1998 Web Design We MAY have a special guest tonight, btw. If not tonight, then next week. His name is Jim Wilson & he runs VirtualPROMOTE.com, which is a really good site for finding ways to build traffic to your site. why can't I change my name to Nan from z-Nan? nan type /nick Nan Dot? Questions? Use /nick z-Nan Nan I decided that I wanted to have both horizontal and vertical lines of red and blue on white background uh-huh.. I guess I would use table for vertical lines, but how do I do horizontal? Is anyone paying attention to my question I was called on by the teacher and everyone else is interferring I'm paying attention, Dot. You could make them part of the background, or you could use the
tag & set the color to what you want it to be. You just ignore them. I'm listening. What is an
tag? I forgot Now I remember Does it make the bar a certain width? Horizontal rule. It just puts a line across the page. I can't remember all of the attributes right now, but I'm sure you can find them in any HTML reference. ok I have a good one Would I make the vertical ones with table? You can set the width, and the length, and the color, and I think you can set whether it's solid or outline (but I'm not sure if that works for all browsers). good This vertical line question has come up before. There are a couple of ways to do it. You could use a gif that is the right size. The color only works in IE Size, width, noshade, colr color You could have a table with a very narrow cell & fill that cell with the color you want. like a pixel sized gif Angie? Is color only good in IE for
tag? Right. One pixel wide & however many pixels long. That might be the easiest way for all of the lines, Yes the color attribtue in the
still only works in IE because then you would know they would always look the way you want them to. Ok, but for horizontal what do I have to use for color There's a great site for using those clear gifs..tho I forgot the name of it.. written by a book author I think Either do a table with the horizontal cells colored, or do gifs for the lines. Either of those would work, probably. Or, you could put the lines in your background, but that is probably not what you want. I want both horizontal and vertical you could use a long pixel-gif specify a long width/short height and color How do I make a pixel-gif? You would draw a line one pixel long (or wide) and with the length (or width) that you want on your site. http://www.dsiegel.com/tips/wonk5/single.html draw it where? With what? that tells you how to get and use single pixel gif that's the site anne Then you would just put those gifs into your page, & it would work great. just create an image that is one pixel wide/high..in a bunch of diff colors..save with color names.. wwwdot......use Paint Shop Pro to make your gifs.... Oops. Draw it with PSP or even with Windows Paint. (I'm very tired tonight, I'm sorry). Then save it as a .gif (or convert it to that) & put them in your page wherever you need the lines. ok, got it, and got the URL you can then lie in your html by specifying it as wider than it is... coz it's all one color, it won't distort the image Thanks a bundle Sadia? Go ahead with your question . ok Angie.... it's about submitting to the search engines.. you said that places like Submit it don't give you as much control over content.. when you do a search submittal for your clients.. how long do you limit yourself to? we use submit it for our clients right now ie..when or how much is enough if doing by hand? I usually do the "BIG ONES" like Alta Vista & Yahoo & Excite & those by hand, then I use something like Submit It to do the smaller ones or the ones that aren't as crucial. oh..ok..and you feel that submit it doesn't do as good a job submitting to Alta Vista? I couldn't justify the time to submit to 100 or more by hand. I usually do 15 or so by hand. There is a service I want to try, called RoboSubmit or something like that. I read about it on VirtualPromote. so how much time to you limit your submits to usually? guess what I'm asking is what is reasonable? I think sometimes with the services you don't get to control things as much; I also suspect that submissions coming from services don't get the same priority in listing as hand submissions. ah..ok Ic... one more question? I usually spend two to three hours on it, more if it's a really unique page where I need to work some specialized directories or something. Go ahead. ok.. what's up with submitting to yahoo? we've had terrible luck lately... things not showing up for months.. *** z-mamabear is now known as mamabear Hmmm. I don't know. BUT. Go to www.virtualpromote.com, go into their search engine forums, & I think they probably have a message board about yahoo, which would be a good place to start looking. great, thanks angie! VirtualPromote is just a great place for all kinds of promotion information. One more plug for VirtualPROMOTE. Subscribe to the VirtualPromote gazette. It's FULL of good tips. I am thinking about starting a newsletter, and my main goal is to be as informative as the VP Gazette. IT's really good. Nan? Did you have a question? I have a question about the image map I am making for the page I am working on Sorry, no questions about image maps. I don't like to do image maps. Oh, okay. What's the question? ok LOL do you wnat me to ask or no?*G* i bset you somebody hear knows image maps MapThis, very easy to use : ) VERY.... Sure, you can ask. I was really kidding. I have the map made and no problems with it there but I think it takes too long to load...I just wanted to know if there is an easy way to divide the image up into smaller ones and jsut link the smaller images instead of using the image map http://www6.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=0007SG and it's free : ) Tables create a Table with several cells, then put a peice in each but there really isn't much savings in load time that way Right. Tables are a good way to do it. In fact, if you go to Microsoft's site, all of those little black & white "image maps" at the top of each page are actually tables. I was going to use a table but what Inedto know is how can I break the image up into smaller ones..I tried in PSP but really nmade a mess of it..*G* One way to make the image load faster is to reduce the colors. GifWizard is really good at that. Practice : ) good, then it is a mild thing. how long have they had it I tried that but it still seems long to me...the site is at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/5457/index1.html I will have to practice Zonie!!LOL I'm going there now. Another thing you might think about is just whether you really need everything in the image map. do you count the time it takes the geo ad to load too :) I'm running at 31.2 and took 20 seconds, but I closed geo ad as soon as it opened that is true...i just wanted to use it becasue I like them... like your background I didn't count the goe ad Zonie...I always close them too as soon as they pop up thanks!! Are we talking about the one at the very top? According to the properties box when I right-clicked, it's 44k. (Oops, hit enter too soon). is everyone sending their page urls to kraemer to post on the class page??? atty you are sick LOL ROF yes Angie the one at the very top I'm not sure why it is that large; it doesn't look that complicated. I reduced the colors Have you tried reducing it to 256 colors or less & saving it as a GIF? no I didn't I will try that do you think that will solve my problem then? I think 126 would probably do Nan, I just changed your 44K 16 million color image map to a 16 color gif--it's only 16 k that way. how did you do that Jim? That's what I thought. I usually start with a really low number of colors (16, usually) and if it looks terrible, increase until it looks okay. Sometimes I use MGI Photo Suite--but you should be able to do it with PSP too. ok I will try to reduce the colors again...Thanks fo r your help!! :-) for sure you can reduce colors in PSP I got it down to 28k and 126 colors, and can't tell any diff at all The other day I was working on a site with photos of jewelry. One page had 31 photos & was taking over 1200 seconds to load (1206 I think). I ran them through Gif Wizard & reduced that to 226 seconds, without a really severe loss of quality. PSP reduced it to 9K That was a larger reduction than I usually get, but it was pretty cool. 83 percent reduction. I get 14k at 16 colors You also might want to reduce the "Welcome" graphic. It could probably be made a lot smaller without a loss of quality. Sadia? Question? just related to this...is something like gif wizard necessary if you do have psp? Well at least now I know I can keep it...Thanks so much Everyone!!! Thanks Zonie!!! Not necessary. PSP works fine. I like to use Gif Wizard because I do a LOT of this type of stuff, and it will run the pictures through & give me examples of all the different options, & save a lot of time. But Paint Shop Pro will let you do the same thing. oh...so you can do them in batches, then with gw? PSP use File/Export/Plug-in Export/GIF 89a export to reduce pics? reduce colors colors I mean...couldn't you just go to decrease colors? convert from jpg to gif ah... Right. They have different packages. The one I have is $50 per year, and lets me do any images on my domain--which means I can run all my clients' pages through it by keepign their development site on my domain. I enter the URL, & it will do all of the images on that page. It's a good time-saving tool. ok, thanks shoot buy UnLead WebRazor for $30, does batch too : ) *** sadia is now known as z-sadia what's up with submitting to yahoo? we've had terrible luck lately... things not showing up for months.. *** z-mamabear is now known as mamabear Hmmm. I don't know. BUT. Go to www.virtualpromote.com, go into their search engine forums, & I think they probably have a message board about yahoo, which would be a good place to start looking. I got it when Gif Wizard droped the free service ??? I haven't ever heard of that. ULead? I'll try that. Gif Wizard is the only one I've tried. Since I still have 320 days on my 365 days, I think I'll wait :>:> http://www.unlead.com/ Are you sure there's an "n" in there? I thought it was ulead. I will check it out. Might be something to put on my wish list. sorry is ulead : ) Just wanted to make sure. I wasn't just trying to correct you in public :>:> ops, sent that stuff to another channel, long ago, sorry I will try to get with Jim Wilson from VirtualPROMOTE & see if he can be here next week. I didn't follow up with him, & we didn't get everything worked out for tonight. That will give everyone a chance to look over the lesson (which is on promotion), & you can ask him some questions about it. Does anything have anything else for now? yes angie I ahve a question Go ahead, granny. what happens when you get to a point in your site that you can't think of anything new or different to do, say on the site I am working on now, the commercial site, I am stuck I don't want it to keep repeating, but I can't think of another approach in the middle of it I even tried frames, (yuck) and went back to beginning again There are a lot of things you can do. You can start adding news or information from other sites, on a regular basis. You can add links to other, complementary sites. You can try to think of some new service or way of saying things, to draw visitors back. Sometimes, when you're stuck on the design, you should just do something fairly plain and simple, until you get inspired again. okay I will try simple for a while, but this is really a simple site, not much there yet, mostly words, lists and pictures One good way to find content for your sites is to read a lot of newsletters & 'zines (electronic magazines) and either get permission to reprint that stuff, or rewrite it. You don't even have to do your own newsletter--just throw up some news or interesting information. I feel I lost my inspiration, that is it. One more thing about VirtualPromote--they have an area called "Missing from the Web" where people list ideas they've had that they don't think they'll use, & other people can use them. It's pretty neat. When you feel un-inspired,the best thing to do is get everything up, in a format that is clean and easy to read, and leave it for a while. okay will do that angie, thanks It's like writer's block, only for web design. Sometimes looking at other sites will help; sometimes you'll just get inspired again later. I have only a few pages but it may work for now, lost it when I tried to put page together about owner, and sales ppl. But finishing it, even if it's not "way cool," will take away the guilt part of the block, & it's easier to get inspired without guilt. For stuff like that you could do a "coming soon" page & list those pages. And you might take a look at some other corporate (company, at least) sites & see what they're doing. okay I think it is just writing about the owner that has my brain in a locked mode that may help looking at other pages You might also ask the people to write something about themselves, or--this might be interesting--get each person to interview another person, & use THOSE interviews to write your page content. aw good idea, thanks that might be better, then me trying to think of something thanks angie that is all my question was Glad I could help. Anyone else have anything? I am working on a "resource" site which will have a lot of resources for designers, and a bulletin board where people can swap ideas. Sometime this week I'll set up a way on my site for you guys to leave your email if you want to know when it goes up. Ghatten & I are working on it together, it should be fun. Any more questions? that sounds great angie One thing I am fairly certain of is that if you all just send me a message about it, I'll never get through all of the addresses :>:> Hello;This is Daylight. This is the first time where my computer hasn't had trouble getting on here. yeah! If no one has any more questions, I guess we can take off early. If you have a question, better yell now. Oops. Hi, daylight. Angie good to talk with you Bulletin sounds like a good idea Great. Any more questions? Anyone? OOn emore thing though, I've set my graphics for 16 and they've all come out bluured .According to my friend the new standard will be 24 in June you mean 16 colors ? Correct Zonie. I guess I have 2 questions here. One Could Angie please check on new standard for 24;and adjusting the size as best I can ,there's still problems? color and size too diffrent things : ) I will check on the standard for you. Session Close: Tue May 26 20:05:17 1998 Session Start: Tue May 26 20:08:50 1998 *** Now talking in #campus #campus topic is 'Advanced Web Design: Style and Substance' changing color shouldn't blur them, only size Dear Gran, Hi! I'm using I-View;it's far less complicated. Zonie -- you got daylight's original question handy? I've never used I-View, only PSP and PS, so don't know what it does to them original question had to do with 12 and 24 and risizing and blurring, that is all I remember I didn't know there was a "standard" color though colors are one thing --- a problem with resizing can cause blurring -- what was the original question?!?!? when you inlarge an image it will blur more than the same percent smaller Yah, sure resolution is blurred when I am forced to adjust the size of my graphic. Why does anyone think this is! I've never heard of that, either. GIFs are 8-bit, JPEGS are 24-bit. Most monitors handle 256 colors or above. 16-bit is known as "high color," and is obviously in between 8 bit and 24 bit. like if you inlarge an image 10% it will blur more than if you reduce it 10% Any time you resize a graphic, it will "resample"--meaning it will move the pixels, take some out, etc. to change the size of the graphic. Enlarging a graphic tends to cause blurring more than reducing. in psp with a jpg you resample instead of resize and get a better image I'm not a real graphics wiz, but there may be ways to minimize the problem. if your going smaller yes to a point i think the new psp 5 just has resample automatically now, but you have to be in the 16million colors to do it reducing can also distort and delete pixels in image When I save it the view is fine. Whe I go to retrieve the image the view is blown up to hal the screen and fuzzzzzy. Aha. What resolution are you saving it at? but you have to decrease by a larger percentage to get blur than if you inlarge, that is why thubnails, stay better looking than enlargements what do you have view set at in your graphics program, full, 50%, 25% ??? Good catch, Zonie. The strange thing is these start out as thum nails. My computer doesn't save them taht way are you trying to make thumbnails or enlarge images? in PSP5 View/Normal 1:1 should be checked you may be seeing them as thumbnails in PSP5 because it will reduce the View to fit the entire image in the box Trying to make just regular thumb nails. IView saves things as 24 bit. We're forced to view at 16 bit. many time with Normal 1:1 you can't see the entire image daylight -- check out "Making a Thumbnail Image" at -- http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Campus/4642/thumbnail.html "Oh, yah I have a few of those they're haywire too. I'll check with my fiance' > He is now standig here and says it might be our video card. Anyway I hate to steal everyones time. I'll se what I can do and stay in touch by E-mail . Thanks everyone! look in your preferences for lview to make sure they are the way you want them to daylight * Granny-Wicked thinks only time takein here is for asking and answering questions For all there is to know about Paint Shop Pro check out: http://www.pspusersgroup.com/ GW or Zonie, I have a beginners ?? Can you help me? I am almost ready to put up my 1st page & I don't understand some basics about the differences between Netscape & IE If anyone wants to buy PSP 5 CD for Win 95, the cheapest place I have found is http://www.insight.com (Arizona, USA ; Montreal, CA ; Great Britain what differences seraphina? On Netscape I can't get the text colors right and on IE I can't get the font right. what text color and font are you using seraphina? On Netscape the color changes to black part way down the page. what is your url seraphina? pages will never look exactly the same you just have to compromise I had arial as the font for the heading & it looks completely different on IE. why not use VERDANA, HELVETICA, TIMES, ARIEL in that order I don't have a url yet, I wanted to get it right 1st. Will prob get it up in the next few days though. ariel should work on both browsers right zonie? font color change sounds like you chaged a tag yes arial should work seraphina and what is color of text you are trying to use? can you DCC send me the file ? I guess it would help you more if you could see it. highlight the nick of the person you want to DCC to by clicking on it, then right click and choose DCC then send then find file highlight it and click ok I tried several shades of purple & the same thing happened. if not email it to me and I'll take a look, NS and IE interput color codes diffrent Wouldn't the difference of font color be that IE doesn't support color "names"? but the fact that the color changes half way down sounds like a tag problem I always use the codes That does! the color prob is on Netscape. the font prob is on IE may have to use number codes ie #CC99FF works best in NS too : ) highlight the nick of the person you want to DCC to by clicking on it, then right click and choose DCC then send then find file highlight it and click ok you can get color Wizard with HTMLib, there free and worth millions yes and it is good seraphina for a great FREE downloadable (study off line) reference get the HTML Reference Library (The HTML Bible) . . Published by W3C the autority on HTML, w/color wizard FREE at http://www.hooked.net/~tails/htmlib/ there is a new one out for HTML4 but uses IE4 as an interface, have to have IE4 to view it if anyone want that URL just ask I put those all in trying to get it to change. what is this ? did you mean