<z-Augustus> hello all

<z-Augustus> i wanna send colored text

<z-wwwdot> OK, just this once

<z-Augustus> all those ppl using java cant see it

<G-W^> http://users.townsqr.com/mwkwicked

<G-W^> cabinets plus pages

<z-Augustus> what is townsqr?

<Granny-Wicked> my isp server

<Granny-Wicked> the background is the leather look off the business card and the business card was switched to plain background,

<AngieDixon> Hey, those little doors are cute. I wouldn't have thought of something like that.

<Granny-Wicked> like lets make a deal?

<AngieDixon> I wouldn't have thought you could make a cabinet site interesting, but this is cool.

<z-mamabear> your site is nice good going, gave me another idea for a page for papabear's painting lol

<AngieDixon> Oooh. And one of those spice drawer organizers with all the little drawers. Man, could I find a lot of uses for that--CD's disks, office supplies.

<AngieDixon> What really stands out is that you've done such a good job with pointing out all the great uses of cabinets. But subtly.

<Granny-Wicked> thanks angie, most ppl don't realise that cabinets are used for a lot of things

<Granny-Wicked> dowie was up at 2:30 am trying to help me learn ftp to get it to site

<z-Augustus> anyone heard of the showboat font

<z-mamabear> I have another site that I just put up for a co-worker about her grandson its at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/3481

<AngieDixon> I saw a home office article about office design, & this guy had a GREAT office, with white cabinets, & he used counters, but of course they were mounted low enough for office chairs. It was really a nice, neat layout.

<Granny-Wicked> thanks angie so you think I really could be a good webdesigner?

<AngieDixon> And I was immediately jealous. I would LOVE a great office. But then I might have to actually put stuff away :<

<z-Augustus> http://www.ktc.com/personal/lee

<z-Augustus> the heading is done with showboat

<AngieDixon> Jim Wilson should be here shortly, if he isn't already sitting here under an alias. He'll be able to answer some site promotion questions. Before that, does anyone have a question for me?

<z-Augustus> i used the font in my page

<Techie> I'm seeking advice and feedback on my site. http://www.jps.net/jhuddle/welcome.htm

<AngieDixon> I don't know anything about Coffee Cup, it was the only editor link I could find in my list. I've never used Composer.

<AngieDixon> What You See is What You Get.

<Techie> Thanks for the advice and praise.

<AngieDixon> AOLPress is free, but I don't like it; it's too clunky.

<z-DebE> composer is easy to use, but flaky

<AngieDixon> Now, see, if I had my Web Design Malt Shop site up & running, I could just send you guys running over there to look at all the great stuff I have. Except I don't have it yet. But I will :>:>

<Techie> Flaky how?

<anneH> fyi on the library page i just get a little part of the table section on the right with the other menu items in 640 res monitor

<AngieDixon> WE will. Ghatten and I are doing it together.

<z-DebE> for me, kept blowing up my computer! Hard to keep with it, when you have to reboot every few minutes!

<Zonie> WYSIWYG editors, look like your browser, only you can type in them and add/move images, they are pretty limited, and they normally make code that is very difficult to edit by hand later

<AngieDixon> Hot Dog at www.sausage.com may have a free version now, I know they have a shareware version.

<z-wwwdot> My grandson used to use Hot Dog, but changed

<z-Augustus> real ppl use notepad!!!!

<z-DebE> or simpletext???

<Techie> What editors do you like?

<AngieDixon> Yeah, well, you CAN program in Assembler, Augie, but why would you :>:>

<z-mamabear> Arachnophilia

<z-mamabear> Definition of Arachnophilia

<z-mamabear> -- P. Lutus, Ashland, Oregon --

<z-mamabear> _______________________________________________________________________

<z-mamabear> For a general overview of the Arachnophiliadocumentation,

<z-mamabear> press the "Contents" button at the upper right of thiswindow.

<z-mamabear> Arachnophilia is the descendant of WebThing, which is the descendant of Apple Writer, but I digress. I learned a lot writing and distributing WebThing, the most important being "Don’t write programs in Visual Basic." WebThing had a number of shortcomings, all of which are addressed in Arachnophilia.

<z-mamabear> Arachnophilia

<z-Nan> I have Note Tab...I really like how it works..

<Techie> I did the entire site using only Notepad.

<AngieDixon> I use Front Page because it's faster than coding by hand. But then it IS a pain to deal with the code by hand. I like UltraEdit for hand-coding, & it does really well for scripting & stuff.

<Noel> I used to use Notepad, then started using Homesite - what I really like most is that the different tag sets have differrent colors so it's easy to see what's what and edit.

<z-DebE> Is there no WYSIWYG and text editor combined?

<AngieDixon> I usually do spend time working with code after I code in Front Page, but it is faster to do tables & stuff with it, and the site management/navigation features are nice.

<Techie> An editor allows you to use single keystrokes or clicks to put in links, opening and closings,etc.

<Zonie> most WYSIWYG's have a 'view code" option

<Blossom^> CoffeCup my favorite.....especially since it doesn't add weird stuff to the code and it included all sorts of images, javascript, cgi scripts, ect.

<Techie> Do you use FP 97 or FP 98?

<AngieDixon> I will give CoffeeCup a shot, I have some pages I'm going to do by hand only because I'm working with a team.

<z-Milton_S> I like COREL WEB . It is the best I have seen, but costs +-$300 . Corel WordPerfect 8 allows you to look and correct WYSIWYG but doesn't have the drag and drop of corel web.

<AngieDixon> I use FP98.

<anneH> the editor that comes with netscape, unless it has improved has a bad habit of changing graphic links to files on your hard drive

<Techie> Ouch!

<AngieDixon> Not to interrupt, this is a great discussion. But does anyone have something else they needed to ask me before we continue with this?

<Zonie> yes that is a very bad habbit Composer has : )

<z-jimbird> If someone already posted the URL for arachnophillia I'm sorry I was searching for it--it's http://www.arachnoid.com/index.html

<z-wwwdot> tks, jimbird

<AngieDixon> No more questions. Has Jim Wilson sneaked in without my seeing him?

<z-DebE> anyone used PageMill (or did I miss that conversation?) :)

<z-Augustus> who is Jim wilson

<anneH> the guest who is coming from Virtual Promote

<AngieDixon> He's our guest speaker, if he makes it. He runs the virtualpromote site, www.virtualpromote.com.

<AngieDixon> He's got a lot of good info there on promoting your site.

<anneH> that is why i am waiting in line to ask a question when he gets here

<z-Augustus> i need that , I cant get anyone to look at my site

<AngieDixon> Dot, I don't give flunking grades. That would mean I couldn't teach :>

<z-Augustus> only one a per person

<z-DebE> thanks Angie,but you haven't seen my page yet!

<anneH> i did a web page at xoom and it is amazing how much traffic i got when i joined one of their communities

<z-wwwdot> Maybe I will pass next time

<anneH> i put a counter on at the same time

<z-mamabear> I wish they would have a class on cgi's and forms

<z-Milton_S> If anybody is interested, Angie is featured on miningco.com today

<AngieDixon> I tried to quit my Mining Co. position, they asked me to stay.

<z-Milton_S> on http://www.miningco.com You are the guide today

* Granny-Wicked says lolrof ghatten

<AngieDixon> That doesn't happen very often (that I'm asked to stay :>) so I did :>:>:>

<anneH> oh you do not want to quit, that probably gets you all kinds of new ideas to angie

<z-Milton_S> It even has a (unrecognizably small) picture on it.

<z-wwwdot> My picture is on Augie's page. That is why it is so good!

<AngieDixon> Oh, yeah, the distance learning site. I actually thought you were talking about the main page, which would have probably made me faint :>

<z-Augustus> anyone want to see floy picture

<z-Augustus> http://members.xoom.com/hlh/austin.html

<z-Augustus> mine is there too

<AngieDixon> What would you guys like to see the next time I teach this class?

<anneH> which link do i click on to find angie featured at mining co

<z-Milton_S> distance learning

<AngieDixon> You can go directly to http://distancelearn.miningco.com

<Techie> More information on table layout. It confuses me.

<Techie> Also more information on how to manipulate graphics. I'm still learning and easily confused.

<z-dowie> techie I have a couple tutorials on tables that I have done. Don't know if they might help you.

<AngieDixon> I will find some table tutorials, hang on a few minutes.

<Ghatten> http://junior.apk.net/~jbarta/tutor/tables/index.html

<z-dowie> Color Border Page --Dowie's http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/5425/colorbrdr.htm

<z-dowie> Nesting Tables Page -- Dowie's http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/V

<z-dowie> Nesting Tables Page -- Dowie's http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/5425/nesting.htm

<Techie> Look at http://www.jps.net/jhuddle/anames.htm....There is a neat link in almost all the Internet Dictionary to a pop-up glossary in Whatis.com....Java script.

<Techie> Thanks for the table tips. O

<AngieDixon> Here are some more sites to check out.

<AngieDixon> http://www.webhelp.org/tables/

<AngieDixon> http://www.cnet.com/Content/Builder/Authoring/Htmltips/ss02i.html

<AngieDixon> http://www.quadzilla.com/tabletutor/tabletutor.htm

* Granny-Wicked thinks to leave border at 2 until done with everything helps to then just before uploading to browser put border =0

<AngieDixon> http://members.aol.com/harvillo/tabtut.html

<AngieDixon> http://www.charm.net/~lejeune/tables.html

<Ghatten> GW--that' the BIGGEST table tip I know...always leave the border ON!

<AngieDixon> It certainly is easier to tell what you're doing with the borders on.

<Granny-Wicked> lolrof thanks ghatten, it took me two semesters to learn that one!! thanks to your classes I finally got it

<Granny-Wicked> also to leave empty table helps sometimes to align between tables if doing a side to side table

<z-DebE> ghatten...try http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com!!!! I did - it didn't help, but was very entertaining!

<Techie> I think that is what I did in my site, but I'm not really sure. I just played with it until it didn't such as much.

<Granny-Wicked> techie, tables are probably the most interesting and most difficult part of html coding, but they can be very rewarding too

<z-dowie> Great challenge!

<Techie> I wanted to avoid frames. Too hard for people to bookmark or print out.

<z-DebE> oh, then He had some fun with me Techie!

<z-DebE> musta been using Hotdog or somethin'

<daylight> I'm trying to figure out how to put the right amount of space between my graphic source codes. Does anyone no about cell padding, or cell spacing?

<anneH> bartas tutorial is great for stuff like that

<anneH> i still go back and check it to remember which does what

<AngieDixon> The thing with frames is, if they click in the frame they want, they can print or bookmark it, but if they don't know that, they can't.

<Techie> Cellspacing sets the number of pixels (spaces) between each cell.

<z-wwwdot> Good night, and good bye, until next time!

<Techie> Cellpadding is the pixels(space) between the contents and the walls of the cell. Inside a cell.

<AngieDixon> I am using frames on a site where the client wants to offer a lot of resources to his clients, but doesn't want them running off, either. Small frame at the top keeps them in his site, but lets them see the other sites, too.

<z-Noel> Going back, why leave borders on?

<daylight> Yah, I have a feeling that I started too big...

<Granny-Wicked> daylight start with 7 is a good size

<Techie> AD, you are right about frames. I'm designing for very unsophisticated users, so no frames for me on this site.

<anneH> you can tell where the cells are if you leave borders on

<AngieDixon> If you leave the borders on while you're working, then it's much easier to see the table. Then you can turn them off, if you don't want them.

<Granny-Wicked> noel to leave borders on while working making the table shows you how everything lines up

<z-Noel> ok

<AngieDixon> But it lets you have a much clearer picture of what is happening.

<z-DebE> borders are like guide rules

<AngieDixon> Exactly.

<Zonie> always leave border on till you get what you want, makes it a lot easier to see what you are doing when you change something, can always turn if off when your done : )

<Granny-Wicked> on my cabinets plus page, I did one with out borders but used cellpadding and cell spacing it left open area's between like a table would I thought it looked cool on the window page and different too

<anneH> in MSIE sometimes though those spaces are filled, look open in netscape

<AngieDixon> I like to use padding and spaces to set the pages apart, sometimes, like Granny said. It lets you format the page much more compeltely.

<z-dowie> Angie when class is done can we still email you to ask questions?

<AngieDixon> I finally got around to going & seeing Floy's picture, now that she's gone :>

<z-dowie> Or get advice?

<z-Noel> What size font would you start with as a base to make a page readable in all resolutions?

<AngieDixon> You can email me any time. You should use adixon@signasoft.com, though, because my webstyle address probably won't work.

<z-dowie> Okay, thanks.

<anneH> angie, for the next class, you could point to one of your tables pages and say why you set it up the way you did for an example

<AngieDixon> But first I'd have to make sure it works right :>:>

<daylight> Thank you, oh-so much! I think i'ts all beginning to turn out. What can I do for you?

<AngieDixon> By the way. If you guys are interested in getting some awards for your sites, there are a couple of places you might like to try first. Hang on, I'll get the URLs.

<z-Noel> What size font would you start with as a base to make a page readable in all resolutions?

<Techie> If you need a star pupil, here's my stars *****Techie****.

<daylight> Some people have award on Geo-Cities.

<Zonie> * z-Noel * the default is considered par : )

<Otter> z-Noel -- font size "3" is the normal default size!! Try that

<AngieDixon> http://www.geocities.com/~jballem

<Zonie> * z-Noel * don't set size only color and face : )

<AngieDixon> That one, Ultimate Links & Sites, is now self-service. Seriously. He's moving to a new server, & has temporarily discontinued his award program. But if you think you deserve one, you can award yourself.

<z-Noel> ok

<z-deadMCW> my scuba page is driving me nuts I will try that leaving border in trick to see if that helps I am really having a problem putting the diagonal moving fish into a table and outside of table theyy make the page scroll to the right which I dont want

<z-jimbird> Just providing all those logs, Eagel, ought to get you an award. That's a lot of work!

<z-deadMCW> thanks jim

<anneH> you have to be careful how you align the image besides what alignments you can use with tables

<z-mamabear> i agree with that about the logs, we all should give him a ward

<AngieDixon> The other award link isn't working, hang on while I go find it in my email.

<Techie> What is the common thinking about award links? Are they worthwhile?

<Granny-Wicked> angie? I have a guestion, off a bit, but how much would you charge my boss for the cabinets pages, if you were doing them?

<Zonie> for examples of the ALIGN feature of the IMG SRC tag check here . . http://www.cynetcity.com/cyberzone/106/imgalgn.html

<AngieDixon> The site is Artistic Reality. Those two (especially the self-service one :>:>) are easy to get, and will make you feel good about your site, which in itself is worth a lot.

<AngieDixon> Can I get back to you on that one, Granny? I'd need to think about it, but I'll look at them & let you know.

<Granny-Wicked> you know he said he would put it up if it was worth it

<z-DebE> GW-what's the url?

<Granny-Wicked> I think it is

<Granny-Wicked> http://users.townsqr.com/mwkwicked

<AngieDixon> Thinking varies on the awards. A lot of them are "gimmes." But when you're starting out, I don't think it's that important that nearly everyone gets those awards. It gives you some awards to show off & boosts your ego. Later, you can apply to the ones that are harder to get.

<AngieDixon> I think potential clients think that awards are good, and I think most people don't really know the prestige value of any of the awards, so the more you have, the better they think you are.

<Granny-Wicked> angie on my chinchilla page, I received an award from the schools web award site

<Granny-Wicked> it was a great surprise

<anneH> oh cool!

<dowie> I remember the night you got that GW. That was fun!

<Granny-Wicked> yes it was fun, and very surpising for me

<Granny-Wicked> they searched the net and found my site, I never submitted for it

<AngieDixon> I think awards are good in general. I'm planning to offer one from my resource site, kind of a mid-level award that will be given to REALLY GOOD sites, but won't be impossible to get.

<AngieDixon> If nothing else, awards are fun.

* Granny-Wicked thinks they give you a good sense of self esteem if presented well

<z-mamabear> are awards ok to put on a commerical site

<AngieDixon> They really do that.

<daylight> I thin wards can give you a great deal of inspiration to be free...and creative!

<Granny-Wicked> yes mamabear, I know of a few sites that are awarded awards

<AngieDixon> Sure, if your commercial site gets awards, show 'em off. Most people set up a "trophy page" or an "award page."

<Granny-Wicked> even the industries are getting into awards

<AngieDixon> I'm planning to try to get awards for my Mining Co. page, I just found out I can have a trophy page there & I think that would be neat.

<Granny-Wicked> such as best overall site, good display of colors, etc

<Granny-Wicked> I was reading about that today in the kitchen and bath design magazine, so that is how I know

<AngieDixon> http://ArtReality.com

<AngieDixon> That's the other one.

<anneH> mamabear, remember to post your sites too

<daylight> If you can get something backed by major industry. It goes a lo-o-ogn way!

<dowie> Mama do you still want me to try to help with form?

<z-mamabear> oh yes

<AngieDixon> Yeah, it really is. People expect sites to be updated

<Techie> Any idea if they can help you get a job designing web pages?

<Otter> http://www.ArtReality.com/

<AngieDixon> Let me try it again. Hang on.

<AngieDixon> http://www.ArtReality.com

<z-DebE> awards techie?

<AngieDixon> Okay, I just copied that out of my browser.

<anneH> go to lesson 8 and angie tells you how to post on her page for class, all the pages people are doing for class

<AngieDixon> Sometimes awards will impress potential clients, sometimes they won't.

<z-mamabear> thanks

<AngieDixon> But I don't think they can HURT.

<anneH> and there is another gal that is posting class pages if you send her in the information

<AngieDixon> And some of the awards (a lot of them) are given by design firms, so there might be some possibilities there, though I've never talked to any of them.

<anneH> http://home.earthlink.net/~gkraemer/class.htm

<AngieDixon> Gloria Kraemer.

<AngieDixon> Is posting sites.

<Granny-Wicked> angie? do you think I should send url to all of the companies I put on the cabinets plus site?

<daylight> Some times I see sites that are updated every twelve hours;and it makes me mad be cause-just like a clothing store you go in there the next day and everything is completely swithched around again. How often shoud we update?

<anneH> oh that sounds like a good idea to send it to them, maybe they will post a link to you that you carry their products

<AngieDixon> Every 12 hours is a little much.

<dowie> GW, yes, I think so, IMHO.

<AngieDixon> I update for Mining Co. once a month, by adding new links & new articles.

<z-DebE> how about a corporate site that hasn't been changed in 6 months?

<AngieDixon> Back to the sitesyou've linked to.

<AngieDixon> Then back to this.

<Techie> Supposedly you can find out who is linked back to you.

<AngieDixon> Reciprocal links are one of the best ways to generate traffic. It is GREAT to send those webmasters a note, say, "I found your site very useful & have linked to it from my site."

<AngieDixon> Then you can say something like, "If you feel my site would be useful to your customers, I'd appreciate a link on your links page.

<AngieDixon> You should have an area on your site that is your "link to me" area. Have the code in there for how to link to you, & even a couple of little graphics people can use.

<anneH> that happened to me with bignosebird.com site which is a lot of fun, he is putting a link to my web page resources on his site

<Granny-Wicked> interesting, I never thought of that angie, thanks

<AngieDixon> To find out who is linked to you, you can go to Alta Vista, they have a link checker tool.

<z-jimbird> That's great, anneH

<dowie> I just got an e-mail from someone in my "neighborhood" who gave me a link and wants to host a clue in my FUN INTERNET FIND.

<AngieDixon> Anne, I want to talk to you about that, also.

<z-kayroller> good Idea

<Granny-Wicked> good idea anneH

<daylight> 6months is bad. It shows they don't care. 12 hours I feel some big shot is just in there showing off what he can do. Would weekly be appropriate?

<AngieDixon> Now. A corporate site that hasn't been changed in 6 months might not be so bad, depending on what it's for. If it's just to provide info on products, that might be acceptable.

<z-deadMCW> I update daily:) but mostly at Eagel's Nest cause of logs and class info But I also let all the places I get graphics from know that I am posting with some of their graphics Some of them also have URL links pages that show what urls are using their graphics

<AngieDixon> But you can almost always update at least a little bit by adding articles on your topic area, or links to sites with resources, or SOMETHING.

<Granny-Wicked> monthly is probably ideal or every two weeks I would think?

<dowie> Or not seeing them, GW.

<AngieDixon> Anyway. Weekly is good. Biweekly is probably ideal for most things, monthly is good.

<Granny-Wicked> wouldn't every two weeks be better angie for site updates?

<anneH> http://bignosebird.com/thebird.shtml

<anneH> that is the form he used for his bird sightings

<AngieDixon> Hang on, I found a site with lots of free articles.

<Granny-Wicked> I agree debe with angie, if a corporation is doing one thing only it may not need to be updated

<AngieDixon> http://certificate.net/wwio/

<AngieDixon> Every two weeks is probably ideal for almost every purpose you guys would have. Mining Co. updates weekly because they are so big & providing the latest info is their job.

<Granny-Wicked> angie is this our last class meeting?

<AngieDixon> However, if a corporation only does one thing with their web site, they're not working it properly; it could be doing a LOT more.

<z-jimbird> Will there be no summer school?

<AngieDixon> This is our last office hours.

<AngieDixon> There is summer school, but I'm not teaching. I'm taking the summer off from this.

<anneH> next classes start in july and they will be sending a calendar soon

<AngieDixon> If you guys will go to my class site on my site, I have a list you can sign up for, & when the resource site is up, I'll let you know.

haven't decided.

* Granny-Wicked taking summer off to learn cgi, java, frames, psp5, etc, getting ready for next fall classes

<AngieDixon> Also, people who want to help can sign up for that, too.

<dowie> GW, maybe we can do some studying together.

<z-DebE> GW---IS THAT REALLY TAKING THE SUMMER OFF ---JEESH!!!

<z-Milton_S> I have an idea ! We can meet WITHOUT Angie ! (she can come if she wants)

* Granny-Wicked can be found in #netjunkies most nights this summer!!!

<z-kayroller> Okay I guess if that is our only choice

<AngieDixon> I don't know WHERE Jim is. I guess we missed him again. But his site is at www.virtualpromote.com, & he will respond to email.

<z-Milton_S> PSP 5 will be offered at VU this fall

<Zonie> For all there is to know about Paint Shop Pro check out:

<Zonie> http://www.pspusersgroup.com/

<z-mamabear> thanks all of you who have help me with the flower shop pages, and if you would go to my co=workes site at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/1381 and say a prayer for her grand son I would truly be one happy camper

<z-deadMCW> Eagel's Nest- the URL for study groups info at

<z-deadMCW> https://members.tripod.com/~MCW_2/EagelsNest/en

<daylight> Be good to yourself to restore your health! With any luck my new sight will soon be on geo-cities/Hotsprings/ Villa/3537/. Not 'till I've made a good grade in this class though. Thnks everyone.