Subject: Web Design Class Log 4/21
from Nan



Session Start: Tue Apr 21 22:01:55 1998
*** Now talking in #campus
#campus topic is Web Design: Style and Substance
#campus topic set by Zonie on Tue Apr 21 21:47:36
<AngieDixon> I'd like to do the "z thing again--if you do NOT have a
question, put z- in front of your name. Someone want to volunteer to
tell newcomers that?
<wwwdot> I will volunteer
<wwwdot> type /nick z-yournick and hit enter
<AngieDixon> Okay, I guess we can get started. Camora, did you have a
question?
<devlysh> I didnt know where to send the homework..found out today...is
it too late to send it?
<AngieDixon> No, it's not too late to send homework. I'm still going
through it all, & Ghatten is compiling the responses (without names) so
you can all look at them.
<devlysh> okay angie, thanks
<wwwdot> We all need to use "webmaster.webchat.org" as was suggested
<newfocus> am I lost?
<newfocus> I can't open my log files to
<newfocus> find the time that I am supposed to be
<newfocus> anywhere for class
<newfocus> I am DUH if I am not supposed
<Granny-Wicked> no newfocus
<newfocus> to be here now
<z-oletex> pass the cookies please
<newfocus> okay, I will be z-newfocus and listen
<wwwdot> I have a question, and I am next
<wwwdot> How do I put a logo on the left side of the page
<AngieDixon> Since you have one, & you're next?
<wwwdot> and the title to the right
<wwwdot> and keep them on the same level
<wwwdot> Same height
<wwwdot> Can you understand what I mean?
<AngieDixon> I think so. My mind is blanking on me. I THINK you would
set the align attribute of the image to "left." I'll look it up & make
sure. That should keep them on the same level.
<AngieDixon> Or you could use a table, but you wouldn't have to do that.

<wwwdot> I was wondering about a table
<wwwdot> But I wouldn't want it to show
<wwwdot> I want the title centered in the space to the right of the logo

<AngieDixon> To keep the table from showing you set the border attribute
to "0." I use tables a lot; they work great
<AngieDixon> for that type of stuff, and are easier to manipulate.
<wwwdot> I have used that
<wwwdot> ok
<wwwdot> tks
<wwwdot> will try that
<wwwdot> I have another question when you get back to me
<AngieDixon> Anyone else have a question?
<devlysh> I do angie
<z-oletex> angie may i say something on this???
<AngieDixon> devlysh?
<z-oletex> sorry
<devlysh> let oletex go ahead then I'll ask
<z-oletex> thanks
<AngieDixon> Sure, go ahead.
<z-oletex>  you might be able to use <NOBR>
<z-oletex> understand?
<wwwdot> z-oletex, are you referring to my question?
<z-oletex> yes
<wwwdot> I don't know what <NOBR> means unless it is no breaks
<wwwdot> Is that what it means?
<z-oletex> use <NOBR> image plus your text </NOBR>
<z-oletex> that should put everything on one line
<wwwdot> tks
<wwwdot> wonderful
<z-oletex> sorry to butt in
<wwwdot> be my guest
<AngieDixon> Okay. Devlysh?
<devlysh> I have a two column table page layout...links on one side,
images on the right
<devlysh> how do I put space between the images?
<devlysh> I have figured out how to stagger them but they are too close
to each other
<AngieDixon> Between the images in the same column?
<devlysh> yes, vertical space
<devlysh> I used <P> but that wasn't enough space
<AngieDixon> For vertical space, you can use multiple line breaks
between them to spread them out. OR, you can use the vertical space
attribute--hang on, I'll see what the tag is for that.
<devlysh> ok tks
<devlysh> I put that inside the <IMG tag?
<AngieDixon> Yes, after the border and size attributes.
<z-anneH> i.e. <img src "gif" vspace=10>
<devlysh> ok, thanks a lot
<Zonie> I think vspace is only good in NS
<z-anneH> you can use <P><BR> also to add another lie
<devlysh> what if I want more than 2 lines between the images?
<AngieDixon> You could add as many <BR> tags as you wanted.... to
increase the space.
<z-newfocus> hmmm?
<AngieDixon> That's what I told him. I think it's at that point. But I
also told him I'd get someone else to look at it, and give me an
opinion. This guy is just incredibly picky.
<AngieDixon> Okay, I guess we can start again, looks like people are
coming back...
<z-Augustus> angie will he accept makeing it smaller, that might help
<AngieDixon> He needs another web designer :>
<z-Greta> how about putting webmaster.webchat on the topic line as
reminder to everybody !!!
<AngieDixon> Just kidding. But sometimes I wish I hadn't offered him a
satisfaction guarantee :P
<wwwdot> We will learn from you
<z-Augustus> sometimes making the image smaller will help
<AngieDixon> Okay. Back to questions. Cab? Question, or just listening?
<z-Debe> some people will take that guarantee right to the limit!!!
<z-Augustus> guess I aint getting out
<AngieDixon> That's true, but I think the guarantee is important; it
just sometimes makes my life difficult :>
<AngieDixon> Next question.
<AngieDixon> Eagel? QUestion?
<eagel> On this page
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/3421/zach.html zach wants to
make the spiderman squish the kitty  What can we do to make that happen
<eagel> please remember that this student is onlt 3 so that is where the
mentality of this is:)
<z-devlysh> i hope an appropriate funeral dirge will play :)
<z-anneH> if i can interrupt a minute both HSPACE, VSPACE are part of
HTML 3.2 to use in for inserting images
<AngieDixon> Hmmmmm. I'm not sure. Unless you were to take a "snapshot"
of the kitty, & re-animate it with a squish.
<Zonie> * z-anneH * yes but I think they only work in Netscape
<wwwdot> I think Ruthie is next
<wwwdot> yes
<wwwdot> The logo I have is black on white
<wwwdot> Iwant it to be blue on white
<wwwdot> Can I tell it to be blue in HTML
<wwwdot> Or do I have to change the color in Paint Shop Pro or something

<Zonie> no
<AngieDixon> You'd need to change the color in PSP or something similar.

<wwwdot> Ok
<wwwdot> tks
* Otter it depends what language the logo speaks!!! :)
<wwwdot> Maybe I can get Augie to do it
<AngieDixon> Devlysh? Question?
<devlysh> just wondering if there was someplace where I can find which
commands are accepted in IE4 and netscape?
<devlysh> I thought all commands were accepted by both browsers
<Zonie> the HTML libarary is best for that, it's a download, put out by
w3c, the autority on HTML
<devlysh> okay...tried to download it buyt it was corrupt...will do it
again
<z-ruthi> eagel - did u just ICQ me???
<Zonie> http://www.hooked.net/~tails/htmlib/
<AngieDixon> I would concentrate on things that are accepted by IE3 and
NS3--the version 4 browsers just are not used as widely as the version
3's.
<devlysh> okay...thanks
<newfocus> was the question as to inserting more vertical space between
images in columns ever answered?  You split, so I don't know what the
proper solution was/
<newfocus> ?
<z-devlysh> that was my question and yes it was I think
<newfocus> hmmm, split prevented me from hearing it
<newfocus> reading it!
<AngieDixon> There were a couple of answers. The vspace attribute was
one, there was some question as to browser
<AngieDixon> compatibililty on that.
<AngieDixon> The other suggestion was multiple <BR> tags--stacking them
to get the proper space.
<newfocus> okay, thanks, I had a suggestion, but probably not right
<Zonie> there is also a HTML4 libarary out now but uses IE4 as an
interface, if anyone is interested
<Zonie> http://tucows.tierranet.com/htmlacc95.html
<Zonie> about half way down the page
<newfocus> thanks Zonie
<AngieDixon> Debe? Question?
<z-anneH> <P>&nbsp;<P> you can add several of those too to space
<Zonie> one <P> is about = to 2 <BR>
<Debe> Yes, thanks Angie - actually it's not about design, but who is
logging these sessions and will they be posted on the net?
<AngieDixon> Thanks, Zonie. I didn't know that.
<Otter> <P><BR> = 3 <BR>
<z-devlysh> ah that looks much clearner
<z-anneH> http://builder.cnet.com/Authoring/AdvHtml/ss02a.html
<Zonie> eagle has the web page for logs
<Otter> but <BR><P> will only give the space of <P>
<z-anneH> is a good source also
<z-anneH> that explains why what zonie just said is correct
<kayroller> Could you please tell me what w3c is??
<Zonie> the guys who decide what the standard is in HTML
<AngieDixon> It's short for World Wide Web Consortium. They're the
<AngieDixon> What Zonie said.
<kayroller> ok thank you
<AngieDixon> Mor equestions?
<z-Debe> Net GODS!
<AngieDixon> They're the ones who say, "This is how Tim Berners-Lee
REALLY wanted it to be :>:>"
<AngieDixon> By the way. Speaking of Timothy Berners-Lee. Does anyone
know where his web page is? Zonie? You know everything.
<Nan2> I was wondering about this weeks lesson...you mentioned 3
different examples but I only saw 2...the site map and the
layout...where is the 3rd example?
<AngieDixon> Oops. I must not have uploaded it. I'll put it up either
tonight or in the morning. Sorry about that. I got about 150 homework
assignments, & have been a LITTLE busy...
<Nan2> that is ok...i just thought I missed something...:-)
<z-Nan> so eagle...what do yu do when that happens?? just wait and they
will come back or waht/
<AngieDixon> OH.
<z-eagel> yes you can wait or connect to
<Otter> http://av.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=Timothy+Berners-Lee&hc=0&hs=0
--- 433960 web pages on Timothy Berners-Lee!!!!  Go for it Zonie!!!!!
<AngieDixon> Wow. I'm impressed, Otter. Now could you go through them
all and write a report for the class, & post it by 7 a.m. tomorrow?
<AngieDixon> If anyone is willing to take a look at the photo I'm having
problems with, please drop me a note & I'll send you an address; I don't
have it up yet.
<z-Debe> sure Angie - I don't work in PSP, but Photoshop.  I'll have a
look
<AngieDixon> There is one copy at
www.signasoft.com/pulcdev/development/prayer_chapel.htm, but he says
they're blurry.
<z-jimbird> What sort of problem are you having with it? I use PSP v4
<AngieDixon> I don't really know the techniques on sharpening. I think
it looks much better than when I scanned it, but the client
<AngieDixon> is VERY picky, so I told him I'd get someone else to take a
look.
<AngieDixon> The original that is up is the original scan. I got a new
scanner since then, everyone else is really impressed, he thinks they're
blurry. So I put up some examples with different levels of sharp &
unsharp & he still thinks they're
<Otter> loading the URL -- which photo?
<Zonie> if he think 3b is blurry, tell him he needs glasses : )
<AngieDixon> I told him he needed new eyeballs. He didn't appreciate
that :>
<Zonie> 3b is crystal clear, especially considering what you started
with
<z-Debe> WOW Angie!  You did a terrific job with what you had to work
with!
<AngieDixon> So I'm not crazy, and 3b is good, right?
<Zonie> beautiful
<AngieDixon> Actually, there was a second scan in between there, but the
picture was pretty lousy to begin with.
<AngieDixon> The second scan was clearer, but 3b is a great improvement.

<Otter> Try using 'Gamma Correction' on PSP to lighten 3b a little and
it should look great!!!
<Zonie> what kinda monitor is he using ?
<AngieDixon> I'll do that.
<z-Debe> Absolutely - 3B is the best.  Can you work in RGB channels in
PSP?
<AngieDixon> It's a Sony, I don't remember the model. The problem is,
he's using 640 x 480 and I cannot convince him to change it. So
everything is HUGE, so of course it looks lousy.
<Zonie> or PS : )
<Zonie> yep that will do it ; )
<AngieDixon> He sees other pictures on the web that "aren't blurry," but
I don't think he gets that a professional stock photo will look better
<AngieDixon> than a snapshot that's scanned.
<z-Debe> Want us to write him with our opinion???? <grin>  We'll be
polite!
<Zonie> of course not LOL
<z-Debe> Can you convince him just to look at it once in a higher
monitor setting?
<Zonie> my kodak110 takes just as good a picture as a Canon 35mm all the
time ROFL
<Otter> I use 640x480 a lot and don't have problems with blurry pix --
it must be his eyes or poor monitor!!!
<Zonie> course all the studio lighting and stuff like that is a waste
LOL
<z-Debe> sure Zonie, we just edit out that background stuff anyway!
<Zonie> yep LOL
<z-mamabear2>  or it could be his v card, i just got a new one and boy
is there a difference.Good night every one, its zzz time for this old
bear. I liked the picture too
<Zonie> tell him get pro with didget camara  and makup artest : )
<z-Debe> night mamabear!
<AngieDixon> I have just emailed him that you all suggested a higher
resolution & I swore I didn't ask for it :>:>
<AngieDixon> This guy can be demanding, but never seems to know what he
*wants*.
<AngieDixon> I have another photo I'm having trouble with, but I figured
out that's the screening from the magazine, & I think I can fix that.
<z-Debe> I have to admit, Angie, my monitor ONLY displays 640x480 (it's
little) and it looks just fine
<z-jimbird> I took a look and think 3d looked better at 640 x 480. The
dithered blackish dots are causing the fuzziness illusion.
<AngieDixon> Thanks. I'll tell him that, too. I think what he doesn't
get is that you just can't get magazine-quality photos on a computer
monitor. 3d is better at that res? Okay, I'll work on that one.
<z-Debe> Angie, you can pretty much eliminate magazine screens with a
'gaussian' blur and then sharpen edges.  Does your scanner perhaps, have
a built in 'descreen' feature?
<AngieDixon> My new one does, I just found it today. Got a new scanner
over the weekend. I'd been using a very old (remember when sheetfed ones
were $500? One of those) very bad scanner, &
<AngieDixon> when I got my latest check from a client I got a new
flatbed. *Singing* "Heaven, I'm in heaven.....
<z-Debe> congratulations!  They're wonderful toys!
<AngieDixon> Thanks for the input, guys. I was getting really frustrated
& discouraged.
<z-ip> Was it me?
<Granny-Wicked> I understand that angie but maybe he sees it as not
quite that
<AngieDixon> He is the pastor of a church which awards diplomas &
certificates & such.
<Granny-Wicked> white spot is near the hair line
<z-jimbird> Are you sure this isn't the "bungie" class?
<Otter> Well -- hi z-ip ----- trying to sneak in again?!?!?  ROFL
<z-Debe> Any chance of getting a different picture to work from?
<AngieDixon> I hadn't noticed the white spot, I'll fix that.
<Granny-Wicked> in front of the ear
<z-ip> Flat beds are nice...but I prefer dump trucks
<Granny-Wicked> maybe he didn't realize that is what he looks like with
a scowl look instead of prayer look?
<AngieDixon> I doubt it. I'll just gamma correct this one, tell him
that's as good as this picture gets, & let it go at that. The original
up there is a lot worse than the new "original."
<Granny-Wicked> I like my flat bed scanner too!!
<z-Dowie> Ottern, he's in disguise cuz he's LATE!!!
<z-ip> who me?
<Granny-Wicked> very true angie, very true, this is the best picture
<Granny-Wicked> also he might not like the colors to many blue shades
<Otter> The late, great Hootie!!!!
<z-Debe> hiya Who!
<z-Dowie> I mean...Otter.
<AngieDixon> Just having some backup on my "This is basically as good as
THAT picture is going to get" will help.
<Granny-Wicked> especially with the black background?
<z-jimbird> You could also use the "color replacer" tool to lighten
those dark spots.
<z-jimbird> Hello Who!
<Granny-Wicked> yes jimbird color replacers might help
<AngieDixon> I scanned some diplomas, & he said, "Well, the lettering on
the gold seal isn't very clear." The "lettering" was gold on gold
embossing!
<Granny-Wicked> lighten the background?
<AngieDixon> I spent HOURS getting that to just SHOW UP!
<Who> hello
<Granny-Wicked> lolrof angie, he is difficult!!
<AngieDixon> I'll try lightening the background & see if that helps.
<Zonie> * Who * hellno to you too : )
<Otter> Angie -- you sure it's worth working for him?!?!?  LOL
<AngieDixon> I think he's just not accepting that some things just
aren't going to happen :>
<AngieDixon> I'm not sure, but I have $1,500 of his money that I've
already spent :>
<z-Dowie> That's sorta what I was going to say Angie.
<z-Debe> maybe he can pray over your scanner?
<AngieDixon> Some of it on a new scanner :>
<Granny-Wicked> I agree there angie, somethings just can't be
<Granny-Wicked> lolrof debe
<z-Debe> gosh, I don't mean to be blasphemous!
<AngieDixon> He did finally say that if I tell him that is as good as it
gets, he'll accept that. But I told him I'd get a backup opinion.
<z-Dowie> Or 20 :)
<Z-Kayroller> Paging Granny
<AngieDixon> I thought about submitting a prayer request for his
pictures :>
<AngieDixon> This will be godd, I can tell him that a group of "experts"
agree that it is as good as can be.
<AngieDixon> Thanks, everyone.
<z-jimbird> You know he could take another picture!
<Granny-Wicked> your most welcome angie!!
<AngieDixon> I'm afraid it would be worse. I'm NOT asking for another
picture :>:>
<z-Debe> wonderful to help the teacher!  Do we get extra credits for
that?
<AngieDixon> I think I can lighten that background with color replacer.
<Granny-Wicked> nope I wouldn't either angie!!
<AngieDixon> You get extra stars on the board.
<AngieDixon> Anyone else have anything?
<z-Debe> thanks Teacher!
<Granny-Wicked> just give him our comments and tell him it is the best
picture there
<z-Debe> a scanner and computer cannot 'create' what is simply not
there!  You've done a great job with that awful pic!
extra
Session Close: Tue Apr 21 23:42:17 1998