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Subject: POW: NLF - Status of the POW/MIA Issue - 4Nov98 Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:39:39 EST From: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com To: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. (AIIPOWMIAI) Bob Necci and Andi Wolos THE POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) aiinov07.98a National League of Families STATUS OF THE POW/MIA ISSUE: NOVEMBER 4, 1998 2,078 Americans are still missing and unaccounted for from the Vietnam War, though 468 were at sea/over water losses: Vietnam - 1,551 (North, 563; South, 986); Laos - 446 Cambodia - 75; Peoples Republic of China territorial waters - 8. The League seeks the return of all US prisoners, the fullest possible accounting for those still missing and repatriation of all recoverable remains. The League's highest priority is resolving the live prisoner question. Official intelligence indicates that Americans known to have been alive in captivity in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia were not returned at the end of the war. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it must be assumed that these Americans may still be alive. As a matter of policy, the US Government does not rule out the possibility that American POWs could still be held. Unilateral return of remains by the government of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam (SRV) has been proven the most effective means of obtaining accountability. Extensive field activities have brought some progress through joint recovery or turnover in the field of remains fragments. From that process, 138 Americans have thus far accounted for by the Clinton Administration, all as a result of joint field operations. (LA-62; VN-72 CB-4). Archival research in Vietnam has produced thousands of items, documents and photos, but the vast majority pertain to accounted-for Americans. A comprehensive wartime and postwar process existed in Vietnam to collect and retain information and remains. For this reason, unilateral SRV efforts to locate and return remains and provide records offer the most productive short term potential. The Defense Department's case-by-case review and other evidence reveal that unilateral SRV efforts could bring many answers. Joint field activities in Laos are productive and, increasingly, the Lao Government has permitted greater flexibility while US teams are in-country. Agreements between the US and the Indochina governments now permit Vietnamese witnesses to participate in joint operations in Laos and Cambodia when necessary. POW/MIA research and field activities in Cambodia have received excellent support. Over 80% of US losses in Laos and 90% of those in Cambodia occurred in areas where Vietnamese forces operated during the war; however, Vietnam has not yet responded to numerous US requests for case-specific records on US loss incidents in these countries. Records research and field operations are the most likely means of increasing the accounting for Americans missing in Laos and Cambodia. Despite US intelligence assessments and other evidence that hundreds of Americans can best be accounted for by unilateral Vietnamese efforts to locate and return remains and provide relevant documents and records, President Clinton lifted the trade embargo, established a US Embassy in Hanoi, normalized relations, posted a US Ambassador to Vietnam and, recently, determined, without supporting evidence, that Vietnam is "fully cooperating in good faith" to resolve this issue. The burden is squarely on the current administration to obtain increased accountability. The League supports steps by the US to respond to concrete results, not advancing political and economic concessions in the hope that Hanoi will respond. POW/MIA STATISTICS Statistics are provided by the Defense POW/MIA Office Live Sightings: As of October 30, 1998, 1,896 firsthand live sighting reports in Indochina have been received since 1975; 1,832 (97%) have been resolved. 1,283 (68%) were equated to Americans now accounted for (i.e. returned POWs, missionaries or civilians detained for violating Vietnamese codes); 45 (3%) correlated to wartime sightings of military personnel or pre-1975 sightings of civilians still unaccounted for; 504 (26%) were determined to be fabrications. The 64 (3%) unresolved firsthand reports are the focus of current analytical and collection efforts: 56 (2.5%) are reports of Americans sighted in a prisoner situation; 8 (.5%) are non-POW sightings. The years in which these 64 first hand sightings occurred is listed below: Year Pre-76 76-80 81-85 86-90 91-92 93-94 95-96 97-98 Total 41 9 1 4 1 1 1 6 64 Accountability: At the end of the Vietnam War, there were 2,583 unaccounted for American prisoners, missing in action or killed in action/body not recovered. As of October 30, 1998, 2,078 Americans are still missing and unaccounted for, over 90% of whom were lost in Vietnam or in areas of Laos and Cambodia where Vietnamese forces operated during the war. A breakdown of the years during which the 505 Americans were accounted for follows: 1974-1975 Post war years: 28 1976-1978 US/SRV normalization negotiations: 47 1979-1980 US/SRV talks break down: 1 1981-1984 1st Reagan Administration 23 1985-1988 2nd Reagan Administration 155 1989-1992 Bush Administration 112 1993-1996 1st Clinton Administration 132 1997- 2nd Clinton Administration 6 Unilateral Vietnamese government repatriations of remains with scientific evidence of storage have accounted for 164 of the 375 from Vietnam; all but 3 of the 123 Americans accounted for in Laos have been the result of joint excavations. The breakdown by country of the 505 Americans accounted for from the Vietnam War: Vietnam 375* Laos 123* China 2 Cambodia 5 *4 remains were recovered from indigenous personnel; 1 from North Vietnam and 3 from Laos; in addition, one recently identified was actually recovered in Vietnam before the end of the war. For the latest information, call the League's Update Line, (202)659-0133, 24-hours a day. ****************************************************************************** **Subject: POW: NLF - Vietnam's Ability To Account for Missing Americans - 5Nov98 Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:48:58 EST From: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com To: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. (AIIPOWMIAI) Bob Necci and Andi Wolos THE POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) aiinov07.98b National League of Families VIETNAM'S ABILITY TO ACCOUNT FOR MISSING AMERICANS November 5, 1998 Family members, veterans organizations and other League supporters throughout the country have consistently opposed steps to improve economic and political relations until Hanoi makes the decision to cooperate fully to resolve the POW/MIA issue. The League supports a policy of reciprocity - - steps by the US to respond to efforts by Vietnam to locate and return remains and provide case-specific POW/MIA-related documents. The League opposes steps in advance in the hope that Vietnam will act in good faith. One way of viewing what the US knows and what Vietnam can do is by looking at what Vietnam has not, but could have done. At the end of the war, US intelligence and other data confirm that over 200 unaccounted for Americans were last known alive or reported alive and in close proximity to capture. Vietnam knows that these are highest priority cases, directly related to the live prisoner issue. In over 100 of these cases, joint field investigations have reportedly been sufficient to confirm death. If true, remains of these Americans logically should be the most readily available for return since they were in captivity or on the ground in direct proximity to Vietnamese forces. Yet, Vietnam has accounted for very few of these Americans. US wartime and postwar reporting on specific cases, captured Vietnamese documents concerning the handling of US prisoners and casualties, and debriefs of communist Vietnamese captives, reinforced by US monitored directives and other reporting, form a clear picture of a comprehensive Vietnamese system for collection of information and remains, dating back to the French-Indochina War. Specific sources, such as the mortician in 1979, substantiated by others in the 1980s, highlighted remains collection and storage as a key aspect of Vietnam's policy for eventual dealings with the US Assessments by community-wide intelligence served as the basis for long- standing US expectations that hundreds of Americans could readily be accounted for by unilateral Vietnamese action to locate and return remains. In 1986-87, the entire intelligence community maintained much higher estimates, but the numbers were subsequently further screened to establish the most realistic targets for the Vietnamese government to meet. During the war and since, the Vietnamese communists placed great value on the recovery and/or recording of burial locations of US remains. In wartime, if jeopardized by imminent discovery or recovery by US forces, burial was immediate to hide remains, which were disinterred and photographed when possible, then reburied or transferred to Hanoi, if feasible. Evidence of this process is confirmed by US intelligence. Forensic evidence serves as another basis for establishing expectations. Scientific evidence of above or below ground storage, or both, exists on 164 of the 375 identified remains returned from Vietnam since the end of the war. This number, confirmed by CILHI forensic scientists, is far below US expectations, based on reliable intelligence indicating that hundreds more were stored by the Vietnamese government and, if Vietnam's leaders issue authorization, could be repatriated. The total number of identified remains returned from Vietnam with scientific evidence of storage (164) does not equal the number reported stored by valid sources, nor come close to the US Government's long-standing assessments of remains available for unilateral repatriation by the government of Vietnam. Evidence of storage also exists on three remains returned in 1992 and subsequently identified, and an important signal was sent by the Vietnamese in a 1989 stored-remains repatriation. Both instances revealed province-level storage/curation. After two years of no results from the Vietnamese in 1979-80, during a September 1982 ABC "Nightline" program, the late Vietnamese Foreign Minister Nguyen Co Thach flatly denied that Vietnam was holding any US remains, as did senior Vietnamese officials throughout the Carter Administration. Yet, in 1983, Vietnam returned eight remains with clear evidence of storage. Negotiations for a two-year plan in 1985 brought the largest number of remains obtained to that point; nearly all showed evidence of storage. In 1987, negotiations resulted in the largest number of remains returned during one year - - over 60 in 1988 - - approximately half of which were returned at one time. Nearly all were virtually complete skeletons which showed clear evidence of storage; there are more recent examples. Vietnamese officials have also admitted storage of remains. In 1985, following up an initiative through a regional government, a US National Security Council (NSC) official met privately with a Vietnamese Politburo member during an NSC-led US delegation to Hanoi. The carefully drawn plan was for negotiations on live prisoners and remains, but the minister indicated that live prisoners were not on the table for discussion. Rather, as discussed through the third party, the subject was hundreds of remains. In order to test the scope of Vietnamese knowledge, two specific cases were officially presented to officials in Hanoi in 1985/86 with a request for their unilateral assistance; both losses were judged by the US Government to have occurred inside Laos, in areas under Vietnamese control during the war. One was returned unilaterally in 1988, 98% complete and stored above ground since his 1972 incident along the Lao/Vietnamese border. Vietnam has unilaterally repatriated stored remains from very remote locations spanning the entire war, not just highly populated areas. There is continuity today. In 1991 and 1993, the Vietnamese provided graves registration lists with names of unaccounted for Americans. Inclusion of these names was likely purposeful, as was filtering through private channels photographs of dead, unaccounted for Americans whose remains have not yet been returned. Combat photography was directed by the Government of Vietnam; their soldiers did not own personal cameras, much less carry them. Regardless of mixed or conflicting signals on both sides, these and other actions by Vietnamese officials were apparently intended to signal the US Government of remains availability. Information obtained from field operations after the war, including from recent Joint Task Force-Full Accounting activities, also reveals that central Vietnamese authorities systematically recovered US remains. Eyewitnesses reported central-level supervision of remains recoveries of Americans who still have not been accounted for. Vietnamese leaders have repeatedly pledged to renew and increase their own efforts to locate and return remains and provide relevant documents. Pending concrete accounting results in this context, the US should then reciprocate by taking further economic steps sought by the Vietnamese. ****************************************************************************** Subject: POW: NLF - Update Line - 5Nov98 Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:57:58 EST From: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com To: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. (AIIPOWMIAI) Bob Necci and Andi Wolos THE POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) aiinov07.98c National League of Families UPDATE LINE: November 5, 1998 Thank you for calling the National League of Families Update Line. This message is being recorded on Thursday, November 5th. The number of Americans missing from the Vietnam War is 2,078. On October 30th, the Defense Department advised that one American previously missing in North Vietnam has been accounted for. At the request of the family, the name of the Air Force officer, missing since October 6, 1972, was withheld. To his family, the League extends understanding and support in the knowledge that final answers have been achieved. The accounting for this American brings the number still missing to 2,078. Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for POW/MIA Affairs Bob Jones has now concluded a five-day visit to Vietnam as head of an official delegation. In a statement published by Associated Press in Hanoi, Jones is reported as stating, "We are very happy with the results we have achieved," noting that the POW/MIA issue is "very close to the hearts of the American people." During the visit, the Jones delegation met with relevant Vietnamese Vice Ministers for talks on the issue. According to an official public affairs release, the discussions centered on the four broad areas of cooperation by which the Clinton Administration has measured progress. These include resolving discrepancy cases and live sightings, as well as field activities; recovering and repatriating American remains; accelerating efforts to provide documents and providing further assistance in implementing trilateral investigations with Laos. The delegation include the commander of JTF-FA and the incoming commander of DIA's Stony Beach POW/MIA Office in Bangkok. The League objects to the reported statement by the US is happy with the results thus far achieved. The League appreciates the cooperation that Vietnam has provided to support joint field activities, but calls on Vietnam to take unilateral actions to locate and return remains and provide the documents needed to help account for those involved in incidents that cannot be resolved in the field. Until such unilateral actions occur, the fullest possible accounting will not be achieved. Technical talks on POW/MIA with the Vietnamese took place on Monday, October 26th just prior to arrival of the Jones delegation. JTF Commander BG Terry Tucker provided the Vietnamese with a statistical summary of activities over the past ten years. Hopefully, the volume of joint activities will not again be used by the Clinton administration and the Vietnamese as a substitute for results that account for missing Americans. The following day, talks focused on operations planned for the upcoming joint field activities which began today and will continue for about 30 days. According to a JTF-FA press release, 52 cases involving both aircraft and ground losses are scheduled to be investigated and as many as 10 sites may be excavated. This is the 38th joint field activity conducted in Vietnam, and the 94th such effort in the tri-country area of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia since JTF-FA was formed in January 1992. Due to limited staff and funding, it is not possible to send large amounts of public awareness materials. Instead, single copies of current information are available for duplication. POW/MIA window decals are available for $20 per 100. There is current, factual information available on the League's web site at pow-miafamilies.org. For information regarding any matter in this recording, call the League office at 202/223-6846. If no one can take your call, please leave a message with the subject, your name, address, and telephone number. Again, thank you for calling. ****************************************************************************** ** DISCLAIMER: The content of this message is the sole responsibility of the originator. Posting of this message to the POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) list does not show AIIPOWMIAI endorsement. It is provided so you may make an informed decision. AIIPOWMIAI is not associated in any capacity with any United States Government agency or entity, nor with any non-governmental organization. Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. 1220 Locust Avenue, Bohemia, Long Island, New York 11716-2169 USA Voice: (1-516) 567-9057 Fax: (1-516) 244-7097 TDD: (1-516) 244-6996 E-mail: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com (Bob Necci) andi@earthlink.net (Andi Wolos) Website: http://www.aiipowmia.com/ ************************************************************************************************ Subject: POW: NAF - Bits N Pieces - 7Nov98 Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 08:32:23 EST From: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com To: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. (AIIPOWMIAI) Bob Necci and Andi Wolos THE POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) aiinov08.98a National Alliance of Families For the Return of America's Missing Servicemen World War II - Korea - Cold War - Vietnam Dolores Alfond - Voice/Fax 425-881-1499 Lynn O'Shea ------- Voice/Fax 718-846-4350 E-Mail-------------- PGGK94A@PRODIGY.COM Web Site ------------- http://www.nationalalliance.org Bits N Pieces Nov. 7th, 1998 Get Well Wishes To - Irene Mandra sister of, Korean War POW/MIA, Philip Mandra. ############# Mr. Smith Goes To Russia - Senator Bob Smith leaves for Moscow, next week. As a member of the US - Russian Joint Commission on POWs and MIAs, Senator Smith will meet with Russian official to discuss records in Russian custody relating to our POW/MIAs. It is fitting, the meeting will take place on November 11th, Veterans Day. "I can think of no better way for me to honor my fellow veterans next week than to continue my work in support of the fullest possible accounting of our missing comrades," Senator Smith said. According to a Press Release, issued by senator smith (R-NH), dated November 6th, "Russian officials have promised to turn over several thousand pages of Korean War documents that are believed to shed light on the fate of some 8,000 unaccounted for Americans from that war. As the US Chairman of the Commission's Vietnam Working Group, Smith also indicated that he will be pursuing new and important leads from Russia concerning the possible fate of Vietnam War POWs." ############# >From United Press International - MIA talks conclude in Hanoi, By Mike Billington - "Washington, Nov. 4-- The United States and Vietnam have ended a series of high-level talks in Hanoi with promises of mutual cooperation in the ongoing search for troops listed as missing in action ." "The Pentagon said today that the two nations have agreed to concentrate on a broad range of future initiatives including the resolution of alleged sightings of American GIs still thought to be held as prisoners of war. Vietnamese and US officials also agreed to conduct more field searches for the remains of troops killed during the war. They have also agreed to increase the level of cooperation between the countries in terms of providing documents to investigators trying to find out what happened to the thousands of troops on both sides who have never been accounted for." "The Army is making its records relating to the burial sites for Vietnamese soldiers killed in action available to the Vietnamese government as part of that initiative. Deputy Assistant Defense Secretary Robert L. Jones led the US delegation. Today he said he has been impressed with the fact that Vietnamese citizens have come forward with a lot of information about the burial sites of US troops killed in action." ################ Two Questions - If Clinton certified the Vietnamese as "fully cooperating," why did we need an agreement to "increase the level of cooperation between the countries?" "MIA Talks" - What happened to POW? ################ Vietnamese Cooperation - From the Associated Press, Nov 4th, by Paul Alexander -- "HANOI, Vietnam (AP) -- US officials on Wednesday praised Vietnamese cooperation over the last decade in helping to account for American troops still missing from the Vietnam War." "We are very happy with the results we have achieved," said Bob Jones, deputy assistant secretary of defense for prisoners of war and missing personnel affairs. "It's a very emotional issue, something that's very close to the hearts of the American people...." "So far, more than 200 investigations into alleged sightings of live POWs have failed to yield any evidence that Vietnam still holds any Americans a quarter-century after the end of the war. Jones said Vietnamese cooperation on the sensitive subject "clearly demonstrates .. . the willingness of the government to open doors to all areas." "But he was not willing to rule out that a POW might emerge someday. "There is always hope that there is a live American somewhere," he said, pointing to recent cases in which a South Korean veteran returned from North Korea after living there since the 1950-53 Korean War, and Japanese POWs were freed from a Russian gulag." "Officials say the cases of Last Known Alive -- when Americans were seen alive and in the proximity of North Vietnamese forces -- have shrunk from 196 to 43, with 35 sets of remains returned and enough information to determine that the others were dead." ############ One of those Last Known Alive Cases - considered accounted for is Marine L/Cpl Kenneth Plumadore. The fact is no one, with the exception of the Vietnamese, knows where Kenny is. He is not the remains repatriated from Vietnam, in 1986. He was not in the grave in Indiana. Nor, was he in the California grave. >From what we can gather, nothing has been done to identify the remains exhumed from the California grave. Government officials continue to insist the portion of jaw bone commingled with the full remains, is Kenny Plumadore. This in spite of the FACT that the jaw bone contains wisdom teeth, and all of L/Cpl Plumadore's wisdom teeth were removed prior to his joining the Marines. CILHI needs the jaw bone to be Kenny. So, the jaw bone will be Kenny, in spite of the facts. When CILHI needed an unknown, they stripped Michael Blassie of his identity and made him Unknown. They don't identify remains, they name them. They don't even need remains to bury someone. CILHI and the Marines - if you think the California remains are "the last set of remains," think again. ############# Why does Johnnie Webb still have a job? ############# DAV Takes Strong Stand - In a press release dated, October 20th, the Disabled American Veterans call for a "full accounting of Korean War POWs." "The United States Government has a moral obligation to seek out and disclose information about those who failed to return home. Furthermore , the government must do everything in its power to obtain the fullest possible accounting of those listed as POW-MIA. And if any of those servicemembers are still alive, the government must not shirk its responsibility to ensure that those who wish to return are allowed to come home," said DAV National Commander Andrew A. Kistler. ############## North Korea Repatriates Remains - From United Press International By Mike Billington - WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 (UPI) -- "North Korea is set to return the remains Friday of nine US servicemen listed as missing in action since the Korean War...." "...The remains were recovered during a 24-day project along the Chong Chon River about 100 miles north of Pyongyang, Pentagon spokesman Navy Capt. Michael Doubleday said today. The gesture marks a thaw in the chilly relations between the United States and North Korea...." ############# Vietnam Repatriates Remains - From the Associated Press Nov. 5th - " HANOI, Vietnam (AP) -- Three sets of remains believed to be from American soldiers killed during the Vietnam War were repatriated to the United States today...." ############# The More Things Change the More They Stay The Same - From UK Reuters - "London, Nov 2 (Reuters) - A poignant letter written by Jungle Book author Rudyard Kipling during a desperate but ultimately fruitless search for his missing son during World War One is to be sold in London next week, auctioneers Phillips said on Monday." "Tragically, Kipling's only son John was already dead, aged just 17, when the letter was written in November 1915. It was addressed to Irish guardsman Private W. Fitzpatrick who was in hospital after being injured in the war, and begged for news of John Kipling, who had been reported missing in action a month earlier." "I should be most grateful if you could tell me anything you may remember about the fight on that day, or if you are able to give me the names of any men who you think may think may be able to help me," wrote Kipling, author of classic novels set in colonial India as well as the favorite British poem "If." "It was another two years before John Kipling's death on September 27, 1915, at the Battle of Loos in France was confirmed to his distraught father, whose wartime poem "Have you news of my boy Jack?" told of his grief." "Kipling never found his son whose body was only discovered and identified in 1992, 56 years after the writer's death. But as a lasting tribute, Kipling paid a British gardener to sound the Last Post trumpet lament every night at the Menin Gate war memorial at Ypres." ############ November 11th, 1998 - Marks the 80th Anniversary of the end of World War I. ############# A word about Intelligence - we've shared with you several reports along with their real time evaluation and in some cases the evaluation done 25 + years later. Some reports clearly show American Servicemen in captivity, men who did not come home. That does not mean all intelligence reports are accurate. Some are true fabrications. It was the job of the analyst to weigh the facts and make the determination. The Real Time analysts had the advantage of a face to face confrontation with the source. That is why we put such high value on the Real Time analyst. They were there! They knew their jobs and did them well. One report, deemed a fabrication, by the real time analysis, was received in November of 1971. The source reported sighting POWs at Ha Lo between November 15th and December 1st, 1970. Using the pre-capture book of photos, the source identified 33 servicemen as POWs in Ha Lo. The names are a mix of returnees and men still missing. In an effort to confirm the source's reliability, he was polygraphed three times, once by South Vietnamese personnel and twice by US personnel. Discussing the third polygraph the report reads: "Source made no admissions during the pre test interview. During posttest interrogation, Source admitted that he saw the prisoners being led into the prison compound were blindfolded and that the light was poor, making identification of them difficult. He also admitted that his twice daily trips to the dispensary took place during the first five days he was a Hoa Lo Prisoner, and the US PW arrived on his ninth day at the prison, he had lied saying
Subject: POW: PRISONER OF WAR Defined Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:41:31 EDT From: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com To: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. (AIIPOWMIAI) Bob Necci and Andi Wolos THE POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) aiiaug20.98b PRISONER OF WAR (DOD) A detained person as defined in Articles 4 and 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War of August 12, 1949. In particular, one who, while engaged in combat under orders of his or her government, is captured by the armed forces of the enemy. As such, he or she is entitled to the combatant's privilege of immunity from the municipal law of the capturing state for warlike acts which do not amount to breaches of the law of armed conflict. For example, a prisoner of war may be, but is not limited to, any person belonging to one of the following categories who has fallen into the power of the enemy: a member of the armed forces, organized militia or volunteer corps; a person who accompanies the armed forces without actually being a member thereof; a member of a merchant marine or civilian aircraft crew not qualifying for more favorable treatment; or individuals who, on the approach of the enemy, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces. ****************************************************************************** ** Subject: POW: POW Definition Compared to MIA Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:27:37 EDT From: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com To: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. (AIIPOWMIAI) Bob Necci and Andi Wolos THE POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) aiiaug20.98c Subj: Re: POW: PRISONER OF WAR Defined Date: 8/20/1998 2:40:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: Beck Chip To: AIIPOWMIAI POW Definition Compared to MIA by CDR. Chip Beck, USNR (Ret) The Geneva Convention definition of a POW, which AllPOWMIAI reminded us of, is a useful reminder. There are aspects of what defines a POW that is not so clearly specified in the DOD and Geneva definitions. Not understanding what those aspects are allows practical measures on behalf of the POWs to be minimized. What I mean is this: A POW is a POW, not an MIA. This is true even if the enemy knows that the person is a POW, but our side does not. As long as one party, in this case obviously the "holding" party, knows that the person is alive and captive, then he is a POW. When and if a POW dies, he does not then become an "MIA." He becomes a dead POW, but a POW nonetheless. The accounting procedures and methodology for finding out what happened to that dead POW, as well as any unrepatriated POWs still held in secret, is far different from those for MIAs. An MIA is a person who was killed, or lost and subsequently died not in captivity, and whose body was not recovered. There are those in the DOD apparatus who will argue that all POWs and MIAs are "MIAs." One can understand that "logic," but should not accept it, for it is less of a logical statement than a bureaucratic one designed to "fold over" the "whites and the yolk" so that neither is distinguishable from the other. When that happens, the POWs are treated the same as the MIAs. This lack of distinction serves the enemy's interests, not ours. It requires us to only track down those men and women who were killed in the conduct of battle, not kidnapped by the forces they confronted. Once again, I caution the families not to comply with the MIA jargon put out on the issues. POWs are different from MIAs. So are the answers about what happened to the POWs, and so are the questions that need to be asked about them. ****************************************************************************** ** DISCLAIMER: The content of this message is the sole responsibility of the originator. Posting of this message to the POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) list does not show AIIPOWMIAI endorsement. It is provided so you may make an informed decision. AIIPOWMIAI is not associated in any capacity with any United States Government agency or entity, nor with any non-governmental organization. Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. 1220 Locust Avenue, Bohemia, Long Island, New York 11716-2169 USA Voice: (1-516) 567-9057 Fax: (1-516) 244-7097 TDD: (1-516) 244-6996 E-mail: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com (Bob Necci) andi@earthlink.net (Andi Wolos) Website: http://www.aiipowmia.com/
Subject: POW: Comments on the Definition of POW Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:45:15 EDT From: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com To: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. (AIIPOWMIAI) Bob Necci and Andi Wolos THE POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) aiiaug22.98a Comments by Ann Mills Griffiths National League of Families I read the definition of MIA provided by Chip Beck and, setting aside for a moment the manner in which cases are pursued, he defined KIA/BNR by stating "An MIA is a person who was killed, or lost and subsequently died not in captivity, and whose body was not recovered." MIA status applies to those about whom insufficient is know to confirm life or death; therefore the serviceman is missing in action. It does not apply to civilians who are covered under a completely different section of the U.S. Code. There may be some in DoD who treat MIA cases as KIA/BNR's, but the greatest danger is that the Congress and the media increasingly dismiss all POW/MIAs as KIA/BNRs, regardless of factual circumstances, as does the executive branch by allowing the fiction that Vietnam's KIA/BNRs are MIAs. As dangerous as is the dismissal of potential accountability. After all, if a person was a POW and could still be, the only possibility of accounting for him is to keep the pressure on for his return, alive or dead. If, in fact, he died or was killed, remains should be readily available to prove it. That is why one must be skeptical about current public comments regarding the LKA discrepancy cases. In most, not every, LKA case on which DoD now states it has "determined fate" (confirmed death), there should be remains available to reinforce that determination if it is accurate. Yet, the only aspect covered in media, testimony, etc., is that the LKA cases are "down to 43" or "down to 48" with no mention that remains have not been recovered and identified. Neither is there mention that remains should be recoverable on most cases where "fate has been determined" or that the investigations to "determine fate" were conducted jointly with the Vietnamese, often by U.S. officials not specifically trained for debriefing missions and with little experience. That situation has improved with the RIT (Research Investigation Team that, in Vietnam, now includes Stony Beach) and, hopefully, will improve even further with full reintegration of DIA's Stony Beach into the process. There is also little reference to the 80+ LKA cases in Laos, nearly all in areas then controlled by Vietnam, and Vietnam has not provided documents or records, much less remains, on those cases. ****************************************************************************** **Subject: POW: Military Personnel Subcommittee Hearing Postponed Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:27:02 EDT From: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com To: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. (AIIPOWMIAI) Bob Necci and Andi Wolos THE POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) aiisep08.98d The Military Personnel Subcommittee Hearing has been postponed from its original date of September 22, 1998, to the new date of October 2, 1998. The Hearing is scheduled for 9 A.M. in the Rayburn House Office Building in either room 2118 or 2212. Congressman Steve Buyer is the chair of this committee. ****************************************************************************** ** DISCLAIMER: The content of this message is the sole responsibility of the originator. Posting of this message to the POW/MIA E-MAIL NETWORK (c) list does not show AIIPOWMIAI endorsement. It is provided so you may make an informed decision. AIIPOWMIAI is not associated in any capacity with any United States Government agency or entity, nor with any non-governmental organization. Advocacy And Intelligence Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action, Inc. 1220 Locust Avenue, Bohemia, Long Island, New York 11716-2169 USA Voice: (1-516) 567-9057 Fax: (1-516) 244-7097 TDD: (1-516) 244-6996 E-mail: AIIPOWMIAI@aol.com (Bob Necci) andi@earthlink.net (Andi Wolos) Website: http://www.aiipowmia.com/
