GENTLEMAN IN AUDIENCE:
In regard to what you have
up on the board - you say
"great men talk about
ideas and small men talk about other
men" - I guess I'm a
medium sized man 'cause I'm gonna talk about your ideas -
<audience chuckles> - I have a question in regard
to the statement you have made in regard to teaching -
the guarantor of the teaching being the bishop. I guess
if you look around you, you realize that
some of the bishops
are not exactly teaching the faith.
In fact, we even heard the
good bishop (Bishop Myers) this morning refer to the fact
that there
are
"bad bishops." Who
then is the guarantor of the faith if we cannot rely on
the bishop, and what about the Magisterium of the Church?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't hear you say
anything about the Magisterium of the Church...in what
you said----
FR. STUBNA: Yeah, I think just to that point, I
think I mentioned the Magisterium a number of times. But
the Magisterium---uh--The question concerned about who
really does guarantee the soundness of doctrine and what
about if a bishop is perceived to be not a good bishop -
is the thrust of your question.
The Magisterium of the Church
is the - are the
- bishops of the
Church...(pause) --the bishops
with the Pope
make up the teaching Church.
Secondly, the answer to your question --- is the
Pope. We are either Catholic or we are Protestant. If we
take on ourselves the ability to determine who is right
and who is wrong, we become Protestant. That's what
Protestants did. When they didn't like what their pastors
were saying, they went on and formed their own community
with people they thought met their interpretation of the
Gospel - and we know what happened.
And this is not a
denigration of protestantism, it is just a
historical reality. That's why there's so many different
brands of Protestantism. It depends on YOUR interpretation
of what's right and wrong. What we rely on constantly is
the wisdom of the Holy Spirit that has guaranteed the
soundness of doctrine
through the
Magisterium -
the bishops of the
Church.
When the pope appoints a bishop to a diocese,
he isn't appointing
- um, that bishop doesn't get his authority
from the pope. The bishop gets his authority from his
ordination as a bishop. The pope
simply locates him
in a part of the country that needs him. A
bishop teaches in communion with the pope.
Who will determine that? It's the Pope - and
until the Pope makes a
decision that the bishop is not a good
bishop, none of us can do that; none of us can say that.
That, I think, is maybe not a satisfying answer but what
makes us Catholic is our ability to know and to believe
that at every moment the Holy Spirit continues to guide
us in the way of all truth through the Church. And the
bishops who are in communion with the Pope are the ones
that guarantee that. The people don't remove a bishop.
The people don't determine whether a bishop is good or
bad. The only one who can do that is the Pope.
Question 2
LADY IN THE AUDIENCE:
But what about the Catechism
which says that we don't have to obey our parents,
priests or bishops if they tell us to do something
mortally sinful?
FR.STUBNA: Right - and again, I think your question is
that we don't have to obey them if we determine something
is wrong. What you are referring to is the primacy of the
personal
conscience.
When we keep that in context number 1 - we have to
to make sure our conscience is totally well-formed. It's
an agonizing process.
Could we as an individual ever come to the decision
in our hearts that something that's being told us is
wrong and we need to....(trails off)---that's a
private, personal
decision and you have every right to make
that. The wisdom of the Church is that you'd better be
awfully sure that you've done everything you can -
because there's an awful lot
of other people here saying this. You can
do that as an individual.
Does any individual have the right to lead others
after them? That's where the
sin comes in!
Does any other individual work to convince someone
else that what they believe is the truth IS the truth?
That's where you get into dangers.
You have a right as an individual because on
Judgment Day you will stand before God, just you and
God. So if you come to that decision, the best thing to
do is to go and do what you have to do,
but do it
quietly.
Do it for your own good. If it involves your
immediate family, that's one thing, because you have a
responsibility to your children.
But that's
it.
You know, the decision is so profound, that I would
say it should happen only in extreme circumstances.
Because, again, if we believe what the Church says, the
Pope has the ultimate responsibility for being sure that
the Church is teaching in the proper way. He has every
avenue open to him to correct things when they go wrong.
So - we are putting ourselves in his place when we make
the determination that somebody is not doing the right
thing. That's how serious it is.
Question 3
LADY FROM THE AUDIENCE:
We have a bishop whom we
cannot obey...he has asked us as homeschooling parents to
do that we feel is morally wrong. If we cannot follow
him, and if he's not open to us, how can we dialogue with
him?
FR. STUBNA: It's a practical question that is a
very difficult one to answer. All I can say is based on
the principles of the Church - number 1, we can
always
dialogue with people. Many times the
misunderstandings come about because there hasn't been a
clear articulation. There isn't the kind of stance in
dialogue that enables people to sit down and talk
together. And again, this is part of the cross that
people carry - that's one aspect of the long-suffering
that's demanded of people of faith.
Has every effort been made to truly communicate
clearly and articulately what it is we are doing? Have
all of those avenues been pursued? That's the
responsibility that's placed
on the family and the parents.
Or is it just too easy to move in another
direction, because we don't feel the support? Or if
someone has put burdensome
obligations on us - can the dialogue lead
to conversion and change of heart? Absolutely. It happens
all the time.
The real hope here and the value is that we need to
always see as our goal -
communion with the
Church. When
we're NOT in communion with the Church, the
goal still is that. It may take us a longer time to get
there. But if we're striving towards that -- that's what
I'm saying is the primary focus.
Question 4
LADY FROM THE AUDIENCE (faintly):
The Church can supercede the
(inaudible) - either... in that goal of teaching
----
FR. STUBNA INTERRUPTS THE QUESTION: You're talking
about an individual priest or bishop --
You are --- all of us ---
make up the Church. We can never teach
apart from the Church. When you're teaching as a parent,
you are teaching in communion with the Church.
The guarantee of that
teaching is the bishop.
That's the way Christ instituted the Church and
there's no way around that. If the perception is that the
bishop is somehow not doing his job,
I can just tell you that
there are procedures in the Church to remove a bishop,
and the only one who can do that is the
Pope.
The Pope is so concerned with the teachings of the
Church that he is not going to allow a bishop to teach
heresy.
You know, you may not like him,
he may not be doing exactly
the right thing (audience response with
rustling movement noise, some inaudible speech is
heard)---You know, I see a
lot of tension in here about bishops. I'm
just saying that I
understand from my own experience in the
dialogue that we've had with a lot of
homeschooling families that
this is not an easy
issue.
But we need to be sure that we don't err on the
side of setting ourselves up as the arbiters, as the ones
who have determined, "I know what's right," "This is
what's right," "I have made that decision."
When you do that, you have made a
personal
conscience decision that
you're going to answer
before God. But when
you step out of the
communion of the Church, you are on very,
very shaky grounds.
Question 5
LADY IN THE AUDIENCE:
Are you saying that if a
person challenges a bishop or [questions] that
he's teaching heresy, then
that person's out of
communion with the Church?
FR. STUBNA: No, no - that's not what I'm saying.
(Audience murmurs become louder)...No, that's not what
I'm saying.
LADY IN THE AUDIENCE
(genially): It sure sounds
like it, Father.
ANOTHER LADY (faintly): ---(inaudible)
---until the Pope says he's
a heretic - we can't---but I'm not saying
that---
FR. STUBNA: Let's keep things very clear. The
bishop is in charge of ensuring that the doctrine of
faith and morals is correct. There are levels of that
authority.
What I find with some homeschooling families is
that everything is mixed together. For example, if a
diocese makes a policy about
a textbook, or about attending CCD classes,
that's a completely different matter than teaching the
Faith, than ensuring the soundness of doctrine with
regard to faith and morals.
Question 6
LADY IN THE AUDIENCE (CONTINUING HER QUESTION FROM
QUESTION 5): There are
things that are taught in CCD classes that are not being
taught correctly -- that is what I'm talking
about.
FR. STUBNA: No, I'm talking about a decision for a
homeschooling family --like you are saying -
on what grounds are you
arguing that there is a problem? That the
bishop is saying something wrong? That the parish is
doing something wrong? There are different levels of
that.
If the teaching is in
question, that is one very serious matter.
If we are talking about
methods and techniques and requirements,
that's a different matter altogether.
I'm talking today in a particular way about the
teaching of the Church, and that teaching -
the pastor and
the bishop
have the responsibility by their office to
ensure that's done properly.
If you, as an individual parent, determine in your
situation that what's being
taught is heretical, you have the ability
to move out of that. If that's your decision, do
that.
I'm just saying that you have to be very cautious
about that decision, because it's easy to move in that
direction - we don't like something, out we go.
That's a very easy
move.
We have to be very careful when
we move ourselves out of the
context of our faith community. That's the
concern.
Question 7
GENTLEMAN: In my own
personal experience, the clergy is very open to
homeschoolers, because they see what we do. The parish
priest knows who's in his parish...Most people are lucky
if they darken the doorstep of that church twice a year.
(Laughter from audience)They love us, but the problem
that I'm seeing is within the chancery and the local
CFC's. They actually said to me, "If people found out you
homeschool, our CCD would close." We are not talking
about a school, we are talking about a CCD program.
Where is the
focus?
Is the focus that I'm
passing on my Faith, or is it that they want to protect
their own institution?
FR. STUBNA: I can tell you from our experience,
that is not a concern at all. There are other dioceses
that I know of, I can't speak for every diocese, but I am
saying that there are many, many Catholic
educational
officials, and particularly at the
bishop's
level, whose
responsibility is to teach the Faith. How
that's done, there are any number of ways. I could make a
case today for the importance of Catholic schools because
we believe in them. That doesn't mean that homeschooling
isn't good.
Or when we make a case for homeschooling, that
doesn't denigrate Catholic schools. We are working
together as a family, and there's a need for all of them
- I think a lot of officials are open to things - you
know, this is a relatively new phenomenon for many of
them. They really don't know how to judge it, and I think
it will be judged by its fruits. The dialogue that comes
about that you are saying is positive at the parish level
needs to find its way up the channels so that
other people who are
responsible for those decisions can also
have that same experience.
Question 8
LADY IN THE AUDIENCE:
What do we do as parents,
when we are forced to put our children in a Confirmation
class that is nothing but pagan rituals - someone telling
our children about breaking down the hierarchy and women
priests...we are told that if we don't do this, then our
children aren't going to receive the sacrament. What can
we do? This is clearly heretical.
FR. STUBNA: All that I can tell you (Kimberly Hahn
is heard whispering to Father) - and I'm being told that
we have another speaker (Father begins to move away from
microphone), is when things
are found to be heretical,
they need to be communicated.
In my fours years (voice grows fainter) of
Secretary of Education, I've never received one letter -
(inaudible) and I take that job seriously. You have to
make sure you have the facts...you have the
goals...
