Natty Bumppo to Denise Noe, September 16, 2002:
In your article “The
Sexless Sex Crime,” relating to the murder of Sylvia Likens, I want to
suggest respectfully that you may be overlooking the relationship between Gertrude
Baniszewski and Richard (Ricky) Hobbs.
Ricky Hobbs, age 14 at the time of the murder, was not a friend of the Baniszewski
children. He was a friend of Gertrude
Baniszewski. He even said so, to both the
police and the coroner’s investigator.
There is a photograph, on page 33 of Borf Books’ republication of The Indiana
Torture Slaying, that is worth thousands of words.
Denise Noe, September 16, 2002:
Thank you so much for reading my article and taking the time to write with your
criticism. Your book was a major source,
if not the major source, for my story.
“The Sexless Sex Crime” is not the title of the article but of a chapter of
it, and it refers to there being sexual types of motivation behind this case but
apparently no sexual crime in the conventional sense – i.e., neither
Richard Hobbs, nor Coy Hubbard, nor John Baniszewski appears to have raped with a penis
or to have forced fellatio on Sylvia Likens or anything similar.
However, there was a great deal of troubling talk about sexuality with accusations
against Sylvia of sexual misconduct and her alleged slandering of Paula and Stephanie
Baniszewski as prostitutes. Aspects of
the crime were directed against Sylvia in a sexual manner by kicking her in her
genitals, making her do a striptease, and finally burning the word “prostitute”
on her stomach.
You make a good point in saying I did not put enough emphasis on the relationship
between Richard Hobbs and Gertrude.
However, are you suggesting that they were actually lovers?
Or that Ricky may have had a crush on Gertrude?
The latter seems more likely to me. The
photograph on page 33 of your book shows them standing beside each other in court, but
neither has an arm around the other.
On page 164, Deputy Prosecutor Leroy New asked Ricky, “Were you some particular
friend of Gertrude?” and he replies, “I was a friend of the kids, too.”
So it seems he was friendly with the whole dramatically dysfunctional family.
Then he’s asked, “Did you ever have sexual relations with Gertrude Baniszewski?”
“No, sir!” he replied; and you wrote, “It was about the only time Hobbs
raised his voice.”
Do you think he was lying about this?
At any rate, I think your point about the relationship between Ricky and Gertrude is
well taken. I would like to hear more
from you on it. I may well see if I can
add to my crimelibrary.com story with more
about this interaction.
Natty Bumppo, September 16, 2002:
You wrote, “ . . . neither has an arm around the other. . . .”
Defendants do not “hold hands” in court.
Take another look at the photo. They
are a couple.
This is one of the most remarkable journalistic photos I have ever seen.
Ranks with the Okies, Iwo Jima, and the young girl running toward the camera in Viet
Nam. I don’t know who took the
courtroom photo of Gertrude and Ricky:
I copped it from an uncredited, uncopyrighted reproduction in a detective magazine.
Probably an Indianapolis Star or News photographer – I was friends with all of
them – I would like to think it was my old friend Frank Fisse.
But I cannot know: You saw how
shabbily the Star treated me, in the “APPENDIX,” on page 189.
As for Ricky’s remark, “I was a friend of the kids, too,” read Louis
Nizer’s book. This is the
cross-examined presenting himself in the best light.
And do I think Ricky was lying about not having sexual relations with Gertrude
Baniszewski? Again, read Louis Nizer’s
book. Denial is fiercest when
circumstantial evidence impossible to rebut is presented.
I have serious reservations about the credibility of that answer.
What else besides sex would motivate an otherwise decent young man to carve words
upon a girl’s belly with a burning wand?
Everything fits – including Hobbs’ death at a youthful age from cancer.
He was a tormented young man.
By the way, I have a copy of the autopsy report (included in the entire file of the
case, given to me by Detective Sgt. William Kaiser’s son, Paul).
Incredibly it does not mention whether Sylvia Likens’ hymen was intact (I think
this omission is righteous in terms of “blaming the victim,” but there are
those who would like to know).
Denise Noe, September 17, 2002:
It doesn’t necessarily seem that way to me.
For one thing, you have to take the age difference into account.
Gertrude was 37, Hobbs 14. Yes, I
know such a romance is possible – I just completed a story on Mary Kay Letourneau –
but it makes it somewhat unlikely. And
yes, I know that Dennis Wright was about 20 when he fathered Gertrude’s baby.
Does Louis Nizer’s book deal directly with the Likens case?
Actually, saying Ricky was Gertrude’s “boyfriend” might be the better thing
to do because it would suggest a powerful reason to want to please her.
I still doubt there was an actual sexual relationship.
However, the possibility – even probability – of a sexual attraction
between them is something I could have dealt with in my story and did not.
You ask, “What else besides sex would motivate an otherwise decent young man to
carve words upon a girl’s belly with a burning wand?”
A desire to be mean. One of the things that this case
brings out is the extraordinary cruelty of children.
As I did point out in my piece, some people see it as a real-life Lord of the
Flies incident. The cruelty of
children is underlined as well in the recent media interest in childhood bullying.
Also, there could have been a “sexual-like” motivation without a promise of
actual sex from Gertrude. Hobbs might
have been sexually excited by the branding itself and the very word (that Gertrude
had to spell for him) “prostitute.”
Yes, it seems he may have been haunted by the case, both his part in it and
the aftermath. That sort of stress
might have contributed to his death.
Of course, his mother died from cancer; so his family had a history of it.
Yes, we would like to know if Sylvia’s hymen was intact.
However, even if it was not, it might not tell us anything new.
Couldn’t her hymen have been broken when she was forced – twice – to
insert the soft drink bottle up her vagina?
In The Indiana Torture Slaying, you don’t say that Sylvia was raped in
the usual sense by Hobbs, Hubbard, or anyone else.
Do you believe that it’s likely she was?
Natty Bumppo, September 17, 2002:
I think that is unlikely. If Leroy New
had thought there was the slightest chance of a rape indictment, he would have gone
for it.
I think sex is more basic than meanness.
More significantly, unlike Coy Hubbard and Paula Baniszewski, Ricky Hobbs did not
give the impression of being mean. Of
course, he had to be mean at some level to do what he did; but meanness did not seem
to be an element of his basic character.
I’m guessing that you never met any of these people; I rather knew them.
No question of Paula Baniszewski’s and Coy Hubbard’s basic meanness.
Johnny Baniszewski was too young for a fully developed personality, but he had a
definite mean streak. I didn’t
see it in Hobbs.
And no, Gertrude Baniszewski and Ricky Hobbs did not have to have had “sexual
relations” to have had a “sexual relationship.”
The desire or promise is sufficient to motivate.
But Gertrude Baniszewski’s obsession with appearing “young,” her
history with Dennis Wright, and the truly heinous nature of what Hobbs did suggest
to me a stronger motivation than mere promise or desire.
Almost all young men have the desire for sex, but it is not nearly as powerful as
the desire for more once it has been had, and particularly for more
with a particular individual. This is
but speculation, of course; we’ll never know (unless Gertrude or Ricky left some
yet undiscovered memoir).
Of course, perhaps the Pepsi bottle could have broken Sylvia’s hymen.
I had not thought of that. And now I
am curious why there was no mention of the hymen in the autopsy report.
It may be that the prosecutors, not wanting to give the defendants an opening to
“blame the victim,” instructed the pathologist not to “go there.”
Denise Noe, September 17, 2002:
This is precisely what I meant when I called it “the sexless sex crime.”
So much that was sexual about it without anyone sexually assaulting Sylvia in the
usual meaning of the term.
As anyone familiar with children knows, a “mean streak” of sorts may be a
kind of universal. Lord of the
Flies showed how it can turn homicidal in the absence of adult supervision, and
the real-life atrocity of the Likens case may show how easily it can be brought out
by a cruel adult. I have a friend who
has studied this case and believes that, to a large extent, the youngsters were in
fact without adult supervision of any kind and operating on their own, since Gertrude
was, in his words, “a basket case.”
Also, Hobbs may have had a larger mean streak than you were able to see.
Wasn’t he visiting the Baniszewski house fairly regularly?
That would indicate he wasn’t averse to what was going on there.
He and Shirley came up with the branding idea on their own and, under
cross-examination, Hobbs said that the idea of writing “I’m a prostitute and
proud of it!” might have been his own.
Another reason he might have seemed more subdued when you met him is that he had
experienced the strong disapproval of his own Dad for what he had done and suffered
the loss of his mother. Another
point: His mother’s illness might
have filled him with a sense of rage and powerlessness; so, like the others, he
used Sylvia as a scapegoat for all his negative feelings.
You never say in The Indiana Torture Slaying that you believe Gertrude and
Ricky were lovers. Gertrude
doesn’t appear youthful to me. As
I said in my article, she had a kind of “young-old” look and, in at least
some pictures, could easily be taken for older than her 37 years.
So many responsibilities plus ailments had taken their toll.
You quote Gertrude as saying, “Never, never, never do anything with a boy
unless you're married to him!” when she kicked Sylvia in the genital area.
You also note that she had two out-of-wedlock pregnancies with Dennis Wright.
However, those words suggest that she wasn’t having an ongoing sexual
relationship at the time the Likens girls were boarding.
They did determine that Sylvia wasn’t pregnant at the time of her death, didn’t
they?
Natty Bumppo, September 18, 2002:
Not specifically. That was merely
understood from the lack of a finding of pregnancy.
Unfortunately for criminal defendants, an autopsy is usually a “done deal”
by the time the defense legal team is assembled.
The body has been disposed of, and the defense has no real opportunity to suggest
any direction to the post mortem inquiry.
All your points are well taken, and especially the analogy to Lord of the Flies.
But the branding was not Hobbs’ and Shirley’s idea; it was Gertrude Baniszewski’s;
and it was Mrs. Baniszewski herself who began the physical operation.
See page 63. (And it was Marie, not
Shirley, who assisted Ricky).
And all Hobbs said in answer to New’s question “Now, it was your idea,
Mr. Hobbs, to brand and mutilate this girl, wasn’t it?” was “I
don't know. It may have been my idea.”
It was the remorseful response of a broken boy to a leading question in a
remorseless cross-examination. You
will note that New continually called him “Mr. Hobbs,” not Ricky.
That was an effort to portray Hobbs as a legally mature person responsible for his
actions.
And so was the question. It was a
rhetorical question. A good lawyer
does not ask a question to which he does not already know the answer, unless he is
grasping at straws while drowning in damning evidence to the contrary, or considers
the question more important than the answer.
This was a case of the latter. New
did not care what the answer would be; he wanted the jury to consider that Hobbs
had legal and moral culpability of his own.
He got a bonus with the answer; it was as much a surprise to him as to anyone else.
As for my never saying in The Indiana Torture Slaying that I believed
Gertrude and Ricky were lovers, my mission in writing the book was to report, not
to speculate. I intentionally left
speculation and interpretation to the reader (and to the “experts” –
like you, Leroy New, and Kate Millett!).
Also, my impression of the sexual relationship between Gertrude Baniszewski and Ricky
Hobbs is one that took some years to formulate in my mind.
I think I have always considered Ricky Hobbs the most tragic figure in this case,
however, even more so than Sylvia or Jenny Likens.
And I have always considered Marie Baniszewski an almost equally tragic figure.
Gertrude did not appear youthful to me, either, nor did she to anyone else with any
sense or cultivation. Her obsession
with a youthful appearance was hers, not others’.
Did Mary Kay Letourneau’s pupil fall for her because she looked youthful?
Or because she was an attractive woman who wanted a boy?
That’s the key.
Gertrude was not unattractive. I saw
her only after she got to court; I am sure she was looking more haggard by then
than she did in the summer of 1965 (and, probably to some extent, intentionally so,
on advice of counsel).
Gertrude’s saying, “Never, never, never do anything with a boy unless
you’re married to him!” does not suggest, to me, that she was not having an
ongoing sexual relationship at the time the Likens girls were boarding with her.
The whole case was suffused with hypocrisy.
But I simply do not understand the continuing fascination with the Sylvia Likens case.
It is but one of many bizarre murders in our history, going back long before even
the Lizzie Borden case. I find the
Sylvia Likens case no more fascinating than the Richard Speck and Charles Whitman
cases, which were roughly contemperaneous with the Likens case (let alone the roughly
contemperaneous Charles Manson case.
But that’s not saying much, about Charles Manson; I think there is more continuing
fascination with the Manson case, is there not?
And I had a first cousin whose death was mentioned in both Vincent Bugliosi’s
and Ed Sanders’ books as one of the mysterious deaths in Manson’s ambit;
and I knew two women – one of them a “member” of the “Family”
– who had slept with Manson. So
my fascination with that case is a little personal).
I find the Mary Kay LeTourneau case more fascinating than the Likens case; but that
fascination has not stood the test of time, of course.
In general I find “understandable” crimes more fascinating than
“bizarre” crimes. Thus to
me, as the Speck and Whitman cases are more fascinating than the Likens case, the
John Gacy case is more fascinating than the Jeffrey Dahmer case.
I find even the Manson case easier to explain than the Likens case.
And therein may lie the answer to my curiosity:
Maybe other people find “bizarre” of more enduring fascination than
“understandable” . . . .
Denise Noe, September 18, 2002:
Now that you have got me thinking about it, I realize I should have paid more
attention to Gertrude Baniszewski’s relationship with Ricky Hobbs.
I still don’t believe they were “a couple,” but I understand more about
Ricky’s attraction to Gertrude.
His Mom was in the hospital dying of cancer.
Thus, Gertrude may have become a kind of mother substitute to him.
These feelings could have easily mixed with amorous type of feelings in a teen-age
boy.
But I strongly disagree with your suggestion that Ricky Hobbs was the most tragic
figure in this case. Yes, it was
pitiful for Marie Baniszewski to take the witness stand.
But Sylvia Likens is one of the most tragic figures I’ve ever encountered.
Actually, Mary Kay Letourneau did look youthful.
Like Gertrude Baniszewski, she was the financially struggling mother of a very large
family; but Mary Kay was one of those rare, lucky women who bloomed during pregnancy.
She was a pretty, young-looking woman and got cuter when she was pregnant.
The photo of Gertrude Baniszewski at page 23 of your book shows an expression of utter
despair. She looks pathetic.
There are many reasons the Likens case fascinates.
One is the sheer amount of torture, both physical and mental, that was imposed on the
victim. Part of it is the words
“I’m a prostitute and proud of it!” being carved into the stomach of a
young woman who may even have been a virgin.
This latter is what led Kate Millett to obsess with it.
When I discussed the case with the friend who made the Lord of the Flies
analogy, he said another factor was Sylvia’s passivity and her failure to
seek help when, in Jenny’s words, “things started to get rough.”
Another factor is, as I said above, the way it focuses attention on the brutality of
which children are capable.
I wrote an essay about Speck. It’s
called “‘Supermale’ in Blue Panties:
Why the Woman Murderer Self-Womanized.”
In my opinion, the Manson case was blown out of all proportion by Vince Bugliosi and
his grandiose “Helter Skelter” motive as well as his depiction of Manson
as a Svengali and Rasputin. I also
published an essay on that one; it appeared in the Gauntlet.
Shirley Baniszewski assisted Ricky Hobbs in branding what they intended to be an
“S” on Sylvia Likens and became a “3.”
Natty Bumppo, September 18, 2002:
Right you are.
I don’t mean to belittle Sylvia Likens’ suffering, but it was mainly
physical; it lasted only three months, and it was intense only the last two or three
weeks. Ricky Hobbs spent nearly
three years in jail and prison from age 14 (he was two years younger
than Sylvia Likens), and – if he was the moral being I suspect he was –
suffered intense guilt the remaining seven years of his life:
A full third of his life (Sylvia’s “life percentage” of three months of
suffering was about 1½ per cent, by contrast).
Ricky Hobbs was every bit as much a victim of Gertrude Baniszewski as Sylvia Likens
was, and he probably felt guilty about his mother’s death as well as
Sylvia’s.
Sylvia was Christlike; Hobbs was her Pilate.
Historically, would you prefer to be the crucified or the crucifier?
This is the stuff of tragedy. Christ –
whose physical suffering was comparable to Sylvia’s, if not as prolonged –
was not a tragic figure; he was heroic.
Sylvia resigned herself to death. I
suspect that Hobbs welcomed it.
So Mary Kay Letourneau did look youthful.
It was her age, her authority, her maturity – not her youthfulness – that
attracted her pupil. Was it not?
“The Manson case was blown out of all proportion by Vince Bugliosi . . .
”? Aw, come on!
You gotta say something for a crime that blew My Lai off the front page!
Manson was in prison and old news by the time Helter Skelter was
published; and before that Bugliosi, like Leroy New, was only doing his job as a
prosecutor. Bugliosi didn’t
even write the first (or the best) book about the case.
That was “The Family,” by Ed Sanders.
Denise Noe, September 19, 2002:
I’m not even sure Sylvia was “Christlike.”
That makes her a martyr. A martyr dies for
something, and it does not seem to me that Sylvia had a “cause.”
She was a victim without heroism. Hobbs was
an active torturer, not someone who just watched and let it happen.
But you are right about the allure of Mary Kay LeTourneau.
Have you read Manson In His Own Words as told to Nuel Emmons?
That book isn’t perfect; but I think it is close to the truth in making Manson
less of a hypnotic, charismatic figure.
He was, as I say in my essay, a “sad sack of a man.”
Bugliosi as prosecutor presented a motive that made Manson seem a would-be King of
the World and emphasized his supposed “power” over his “followers.”
That’s what I think was a terrible distortion.
The killers were part of a rag-tag band living day-to-day, not the group of deluded
fanatics bent on world conquest they were made out to be.
No one was more intrigued than I was with Manson or suckered more by Helter
Skelter. I really believed
Bugliosi’s depiction of Manson as a charismatic proto-Hitler able to sucker his
susceptible followers into embracing a grandiose series of delusions and murder
for them.
Natty Bumppo, September 19, 2002:
No, I have not read Manson In His Own Words.
I have watched some of Manson’s parole hearings on television and have found him
enormously convincing personally (if not of the parole board).
The description of a “rag-tag band living day to day” is accurate from
all I have read and know personally.
Whether Manson was a would-be King of the World or a charlatan, his power over his
followers cannot be questioned. His
charisma also was unquestionable, even if it affected mainly only a band of rag-tag
hippies. The one girl I know who was
part of that rag-tag band was a bit of a “hippie,” but not what I would call
“rag tag,” before meeting Manson, and was an otherwise intelligent woman
from the middle class who obviously was inclined to fall for the pitch.
The other girl – who did not join the “Family” – did not fall for
the pitch; but she acknowledged its power, and Manson’s charm.
She also was educated, intelligent, and as middle class as you and I.
And, although I have not read the books lately, it is not my recollection that the
killers were made out to be deluded fanatics bent on world conquest.
They were deluded, but Manson was the fanatic.
And the proof of his power and charm – whether you would find yourself
susceptible to it or not – was his ability to persuade people – drugged,
crazed, otherwise deluded or not – to carry out such heinous crimes for the
cause he preached.
Denise Noe, September 19, 2002:
That is precisely where we disagree.
In my opinion, the Tate-LaBianca murders were committed in a boneheaded attempt to
free Robert Beausoleil who was in jail for murdering Gary Hinman rather than for
any “cause” Manson espoused.
The “girls” came up with the plan.
Manson urged them to put it into action.
For a mass murderer, he may be unusual only in being pitiful rather than powerful.
See my article in the Gauntlet.
Manson’s “power over his followers cannot be questioned”?
It can be and has been. When it
suited their purposes, his supposed followers easily went against his wishes.
Susan Atkins took LSD when she was pregnant even though he tried to talk her out
of it, saying, “Children are precious.”
She and Tex Watson had a cache of amphetamines they hid from Manson because he
opposed speed. Watson also lied to
Manson on at least one occasion that he wrote about in his memoirs.
Natty Bumppo, September 20, 2002:
I think Bugliosi was just puffing the case a little.
He was the prosecutor; he saw himself as a hero, and he had a book to sell.
What Bugliosi said, in so many words, was that Manson was a Hitler wannabe (although
I don’t think the slang word “wannabe” was out yet).
See pages 639-641 of Helter Skelter (paperback printing).
Bugliosi drew numerous parallels between Hitler and Manson in that passage.
He did write, “I do believe that if Manson had had the opportunity, he would
have become another Hitler.” I find
that a little exaggerated, but I accept the possibility; I think Bugliosi is entitled
to his speculation, and I think also that a reader can use his or her own judgment
on the severity of the menace. It’s
a small part of Bugliosi’s book.
What made it a good book was its exhaustive detail in the presentation of a huge web
of murder and other crime.
As for the defections (or mere transgressions) of Manson’s disciples you spoke of
(using LSD when pregnant, keeping a stash of speed, lying to the Messiah, etc.),
so what? General Rommel served Hitler well
both in Africa and in France, and he was involved in a plot to kill Hitler.
Jesus’ disciples were not altogether loyal, either.
Did Peter not deny him shortly after the crucifixion?
And “three times,” as Jesus himself predicted?
Not to mention Doubting Thomas and Judas . . . .
A policeman’s wife in Lizton, Ind., and former Likens
neighbor
wrote to Natty Bumppo July 5, 2003:
Something you wrote really bothered me: